62 replies to this topic

[Pippin's person]

It did, but I didn't want it to sound like I was "sour grapes" complaining about it, just...puzzled, or taken aback, I guess.

I take total responsibility for my own suckage (or success) in my runs, and no one else's run, good or bad, has any direct impact on my own run. I just have to do the best I can, and strive to do as well as the people that set the bar high.

I've also seen this, but with different handlers running the dog in the two classes--a young, very nice dog who was trained up by an Open handler, who ran the dog in Ranch and Nursery while training it. At the first trial when the dog had been turned back to its owner, the owner (a very novice handler) ran the dog in Novice-Novice and the Open handler ran it in Nursery.

A few folks looked askance at it and I heard several discussions, but the general consensus was that it was within the general rule of "Nursery + one other class." The dog did well in N/N, but didn't win and was in the middle of the pack in the Nursery runs. Since then, he's only been run by the owner (who has moved him up). I could see both sides of the argument (though it didn't really seem all that sportsmanlike to me) and ultimately, it didn't really matter all that much to the other handlers in either class

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

Good input from Pippin's Person, BUT.....

If the dog was trained by an Open handler, it should no longer be eligible to run in Novice-Novice. Novice-Novice means a novice handler with a novice dog, not a dog trained by an open handler.

Again, just my shovelfull,
nancy

[Debbie Meier]

Hello everyone,

Good input from Pippin's Person, BUT.....

If the dog was trained by an Open handler, it should no longer be eligible to run in Novice-Novice. Novice-Novice means a novice handler with a novice dog, not a dog trained by an open handler.

Again, just my shovelfull,
nancy

We have that exact thing happening right now, dog trained by open handler running it in Nursery and P/N, Novice handler can take it down one class based on our club rules allowing him to run in Novice. But, as of the begining of the new season the Open handler would have to move the dog to Open based on winning year end high point with the dog, but the Novice handler would still be able to move the dog down one class to P/N. If the Novice handler had opted to run the dog PN this year he and the dog both would have been bumped to Open. The handler/dog combination is in no way ready for Open, will have his hands full in P/N next year.

[Debbie Meier]

Now this one has some people annoyed, older dog that has run at P/N level with Novice handler, open handler takes on the dog and leaves it in P/N.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

If the dog was trained by an Open handler, it should no longer be eligible to run in Novice-Novice. Novice-Novice means a novice handler with a novice dog, not a dog trained by an open handler.

I guess I can't have an objective opinion about this. Both my current trial dogs were trained (to about P/N level) by Open handlers and I run them in Novice/Novice. You've seen us work. We're not exactly kicking everyone's asses.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

NEBCA (since that was the Novice "sanctioning" of the trial I'm referring to) rules state:

The Novice Novice Class is a designed to give inexperienced handlers a level at which to start competing with an inexperienced dog. The class is open to novice handlers with any dog that has never competed in a class higher then Novice/Novice with its current handler or Pro/Novice with any other handler. Open handlers may not compete in novice-novice.

and

**Once a dog moves up to a higher class,the dog cannot move back down to a lower class.Exception is when a dog changes handlers. * A novice handler may drop ONE AND ONLY ONE dog down two levels from its highest level with any other handler. After a handler drops one dog down two levels, any subsequent dogs will only be permitted to drop down one level. Handlers who have dropped a dog down two levels may ONLY stay in their new class for 20 points, rather than the 30** currently allocated to other teams. Handlers must notify the Novice Trial Committee prior to exercising this privilege.

(The ** just explains how any points previously earned by the dog will be handled.)

So basically it wouldn't matter if in the Nursery-Nov/Nov scenario whether the dog was trained by someone else or not. (I'm not mentioning it to defend my own stuck-in-Nov/Nov status, I'd rather we were running consistently enough to move up! )

ETA: Sorry, the **indicates the rule was part of the Jan 2007 revision. The next rule about where the points go also had the ** so that's why I thought it was in reference to the rule I quoted.

[Sue R]

I'm not a big fan of a bucketload of rules (AKC, anyone?) so I guess it's a matter of sportsmanship and fairness in the long run. At least, it should be.

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

Like Sue, I am opposed to micro-managing sheepdog trials by having a rule for everything. Some situations are left to the integrity of the participants, which can lead to differing interpretations of the rules that are on the books.

As I previously wrote, "If the dog was trained by an Open handler, it should no longer be eligible to run in Novice-Novice. Novice-Novice means a novice handler with a novice dog, not a dog trained by an open handler." Notice that I wrote should no longer be eligible, and that is my opinion, one which may not be shared by others.

This then leads to a discussion of the meaning of the word "trained". Is the dog one that has had a few lessons with a professional trainer, or one that has been trained to be competitive in a Nursery class? Has the dog been only been started by a professional trainer or has it run in trials with that trainer? Lots of variables in the word "trained".

In NEBCA, the term for the Novice dog is "inexperienced". In my opinion, an inexperienced dog is one that is not trained to a level of proficiency required to compete in the Nursery class.

Again, just my shovelfull,
nancy

[juliepoudrier]

Another perspective is that if the open handlers want to push the others to move up then open handlers should not be running in the p/n class (this was from an open handler). The idea is that an open handler should be running Nursery with their young dogs, transitioning them to Open when they are ready and then their older dogs should all be Open dogs. This would leave P/N as a Novice handler only class.

Except that P/N stands for PRO-novice (kind of like pro-am), which means one part of the team is the "professional" (either open handler or trained dog) and the other part of the team is novice (handler or dog). I think that at least some open handlers push novices to move up because all too often novices lose sight of the whole progression of the classes, instead preferring to remain big fish in a small pond (winning in the novice classes). There are exceptions--dogs that simply aren't open material, but in general, a person who parks him- or herself in a lower class because they can collect blue ribbons or other prizes constantly *should* be encouraged to move up.

I think many open handlers start their youngsters in P/N (east coast version) and move them up when they are ready, which is often not always an entire trial season. What this means for the novice handlers at that same level is that the open handlers are taking away year-end awards and the like from them--they are using the class as a starting ground for their dogs and moving them up as soon as the dog is able. Of course there are glaring exceptions to this, but the open handlers who really feel a need to stay in a lower class for the purpose of getting awards are really only reflecting badly on themselves.

I disagree with the idea that an open handler should run his/her young dogs only in nursery. Nursery is age-restricted and if you have a youngster that happens to have a "bad birthday," its eligibility for the nursery class could be quite limited, leaving the dog nowhere to run but open.

As for the original question in this thread, I think it's unsportsmanlike to run a dog in both N/N and nursery. By definition dogs running in N/N either can't drive or require assistance to drive, whereas a nursery dog should be capable of driving a full course. A dog that can drive a full course should be running at least in P/N (east coast version). I ran Twist in P/N and nursery the same year, for the entire trial season. Because nursery is essentially the ranch course, I chose the following trial season to move her up to open though I could have moved her up to ranch and run her there for a while. I felt that since she had essentially run in ranch all year (by running nursery, and getting numerous qualifications) there was no need to waste our time running in ranch the next year.

That said, I have seen and heard of all sorts of stuff regarding nursery. One that I found particularly troublesome was an open handler who qualified a nursery dog for a novice handler (barely running N/N) and then that novice handler took the dog to the nursery finals. I think people get so blinded by the idea of running a nursery dog in the finals that they don't stop to consider whether they or their dog are truly competitive at that level. Personally I don't think bragging rights--being able to say your dog has run in the nursery finals--should trump actually being able to be competitive at that level, and of course if your dog can be competitve at nursery, and especially at the finals, it has no business running in N/N (even with a different handler**), but humans being human and all that.... (**I don't quite agree with Nancy's stance that if the dog has been trained by an open handler it shouldn't be allowed in N/N simply because there are degrees of training; but if the open handler has the dog trained well enough to be competitive in nursery, which I would qualify as a dog who can go out and place in the top 20 percent in multiple nursery classes consisting of dogs who are also competitive in nursery, the probably that dog has enough training on it to effectively above N/N even if technically it's still eligible for N/N because of its handler's status.)

J.

[Maja]

This is very interesting for me to read, I like the division of not only dogs but also people. In Poland there are just three classes for the team, but it's the dog that gets class one, two or three, regardless of who handles him/her. Also it not possible for anyone to 'park' themselves in a lower class. I you get very high score once in a given class you can - but don't have to - move to a higher class. But if you get three times high scores (I think it's 75/100) you have to move up to the next class.

Maja

[Sue R]

Hi all:

This may be an elementary question (borne of pure curiosity) but can the same handler run the same dog in two different classes at the same USBCHA or CBCA sanctioned trial? A hypothetical example: I am running Jack in Nursery and Open at the National Finals.

Thanks,
Karrin

I know you can run in both at the USBCHA National Finals. I don't know about CBCA.

[Mark Billadeau]

I see no reason to prohibit someone from running their NN dog in Nursery. Is a true NN dog gaining any useful experience in Nursery or is a dog capable of running a Nursery course gaining any useful experience running in NN?

Either the dog (and handler) is running over its head in Nursery or not being challenged in NN. In the former case the host may have issues based upon how the sheep are being treated on the field. The latter case the handler's ego trip is not doing the dog or handler any good in progressing towards the goal of competency in open.

[juliepoudrier]

Either the dog (and handler) is running over its head in Nursery <snip> In the former case the host may have issues based upon how the sheep are being treated on the field.

I think there's another case in this scenario, and possibly the more common one: the one in which the true N/N (nursery-eligible) dog is running in the nursery class as a "filler" so that *someone else* can get their nursery dog qualified. In my *personal* opinion, that's just wrong. I think that dogs entered in nursery should at least have the skills at home to complete a nursery course, even if things fall apart at the trial. The true N/N dog doesn't have the skills to complete a nursery course.

That said, like Mark I see no reason to *prohibit* an handler whose dog is capable of running in nursery from also running in N/N--as I said I think the handler doing so just reflects badly on him-/herself. This would be a situation where I think it would be appropriate for open handlers to encourage the novice to move up.

J.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Lots of interesting perspectives on this, thanks!

[DebnKirk]

I think you're assuming a lot when you say "trained." I've sent dogs out for training with a "big hat" Open handler. One, a rescue dog with little talent, came back after a couple of months and is still a long way from driving. The other, a well-bred bitch with a lot of talent, has a month of training. While she can drive, she's nowhere ready for a P/N course. Neither am I. Now, if I get crazy, and rich, and over the winter send the talented dog for six months' training, I'll probably be in P/N instead of N/N. Or maybe even Ranch! Ask me how many months of Open handler training I've got in the dog when I show up at a trial next year, especially if I'm still stuck in N/N.

Debbie

Hello everyone,

Good input from Pippin's Person, BUT.....

If the dog was trained by an Open handler, it should no longer be eligible to run in Novice-Novice. Novice-Novice means a novice handler with a novice dog, not a dog trained by an open handler.

Again, just my shovelfull,
nancy

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

Debbie quoted from an earlier post of mine which read (emphasis is hers):

"Good input from Pippin's Person, BUT.....

If the dog was trained by an Open handler, it should no longer be eligible to run in Novice-Novice. Novice-Novice means a novice handler with a novice dog, not a dog trained by an open handler."

She replied:

"I think you're assuming a lot when you say "trained." I've sent dogs out for training with a "big hat" Open handler. One, a rescue dog with little talent, came back after a couple of months and is still a long way from driving. The other, a well-bred bitch with a lot of talent, has a month of training. While she can drive, she's nowhere ready for a P/N course. Neither am I. Now, if I get crazy, and rich, and over the winter send the talented dog for six months' training, I'll probably be in P/N instead of N/N. Or maybe even Ranch! Ask me how many months of Open handler training I've got in the dog when I show up at a trial next year, especially if I'm still stuck in N/N. "

In a later post, I wrote (emphasis mine):

"As I previously wrote, "If the dog was trained by an Open handler, it should no longer be eligible to run in Novice-Novice. Novice-Novice means a novice handler with a novice dog, not a dog trained by an open handler." Notice that I wrote should no longer be eligible, and that is my opinion, one which may not be shared by others.

This then leads to a discussion of the meaning of the word "trained". Is the dog one that has had a few lessons with a professional trainer, or one that has been trained to be competitive in a Nursery class? Has the dog been only been started by a professional trainer or has it run in trials with that trainer? Lots of variables in the word "trained"."

I have already addressed the issue of the variety of meanings for the word "trained", and I'm not assuming anything. We have been discussing a dog which ran in both the Novice-Novice and the USBCHA Nursery classes, and I feel that if the dog was trained by an open handler to a level of proficiency to run in Nursery, then it is inappropriate to run that dog in Novice-Novice. I feel that there should be a more level playing field in the Novice-Novice class, and those in that class should be truly novice handlers with inexperienced dogs.

Just another shovelful,
nancy

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Fellow Handlers,
I like to run open and don't wish to run young dogs more than a time or two in the novice classes. Novice classes don't give me much pleasure and often mean you have to run another day. .After their nursery season, I jumped my Pip and June to open and next year, every time I felt like entering a trial I took them to a friend's flock for experience. They weren't mature enough for open and the Freind's farm strategy was (a) cheaper and ( gave them far more experience than a few minutes each day on the trial course.

That said, my 4 year old Danny is STILL running in Pro/novice.. He has a bad habit, only part cured and I don't trust him on a standard sized open course (he doesn't set the world on fire in PN either).

I know one or two handlers who don't move a ready dog out of ranch because they've got two open dogs and most big trials only let you run two. The handler wants his/her ranch dog to get trialing experience and the good shedding dog who can win a ranch course would be competitive in open.

Donald McCaig

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Thinking on Nancy's most recent post...would it make any sense for an organization like NEBCA to perhaps offer some sort of "Beginner" class, where the criteria for eligibility might be more specific, such as allowing handlers to run at that level ONLY in their first trial season (AND dog's first trial season), or not allowing dogs trained by professionals (how would one determine whether the trainer was a "professional?"), or...other limitations? Would a Beginner class be too redundant, or would it come closer to leveling the playing field a bit more? I don't think it would take any more time during the day as I'd think this class would be fairly small due due to the restrictive criteria (whatever that might be)...the entrants would probably be just a few people who would otherwise run in N/N anyway.

Just thinking aloud (which unfortunately sometimes makes me look stoopid, lol).

[Journey]

Not to sound critical Meagan but since USBCHA only sanctions Nursery and Open the clubs/hosts can offer whatever they want. Too many layers, rules, requirements, regulations, etc...and it begins to sound like another organization. Host/Club guidelines, honest handlers and peer pressure where necessary seem to have been working so far. For those that it doesn't more rules won't necessarily change them anyhow. Good sportsmanship generally rises to the top and is contagious!

[Tea]

I asked questions about moving up.

And folks kinda told me, hinted, time to move up.