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#1 Maja

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 09:38 AM

Hello Everybody,

I hope this is the right place for this. I have little movies from my herding with my pup. I would like to post her progress here.

This is her very first time with the sheep (5.5 month):
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=lMpxvtG3HiI
Of course it's the little goofy dog running in circles that is Bonnie, the other one -the calm assisting dog is a Polish herding champion - Jonda. Sorry about the quality, the others are better.


Here is Bonnie's 4th time with the sheep (the first time was with our friend's sheep. These sheep are ours):
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZouK0cCBRA""][/url]

Bonnie's 7th time with the sheep:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M0ekGnYBTOE

And her last (8 time) - at 6.5 months. It is with music rather than the original sound because there was another dog waiting and he was barking like mad):
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=MenLSHzbOYU

I hope you'll like it.
Maja

#2 Sheepskin_border_collies

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 08:50 AM

Round and Round she goes...where she stops no one knows! :rolleyes: I think she is doing great...Got to love watching that natural movement start blossuming.
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#3 bcnewe2

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 10:32 AM

I'm not sure why you started her so young. She is doing a great job circling but there's way more that she needs to be learning and still awful young to put any pressure on.

If it were me, I'd be putting her up till she was old enough to take some training pressure. Learning to circle and nothing else is not going to be benificial later. Probably closer to a year old or at least 8-9 months would be in my opinion a better age to begin working with her.

Just my opinion.
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#4 Maja

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 11:32 AM

I'm not sure why you started her so young. She is doing a great job circling but there's way more that she needs to be learning and still awful young to put any pressure on.
If it were me, I'd be putting her up till she was old enough to take some training pressure. Learning to circle and nothing else is not going to be benificial later. Probably closer to a year old or at least 8-9 months would be in my opinion a better age to begin working with her.
Just my opinion.

As I am sure you know, there are many different approaches. And many people (and I mean experienced handlers) start their puppies at an earlier stage (5 months and up), but few people actually train puppies that early. The movies cover a period of 5.5 weeks with eight herding sessions, so it's roughly 1.5 session pr week, they last usually about 20 min with breaks, the last session was 10 minutes because it started pouring rain.

In general, I agree it's better to start later and begin with actual training right away. But this way is also possible; it is just a different approach. And with Bonnie I chose this way. She is from my own bitch Kelly and I had her from birth.

This is actually where the misunderstanding sometimes happens when one asks: "when do you start training a BC?" the answer is "usually 9-12 months".

But: "When do you start a dog on sheep?" The the answer varies.

Sheepskin_border_collies,
:rolleyes: Her mother is unbelievably fast, and the sheep are actually a sheep-cheetah cross :D . But Bonnie actually has a pretty good lie down. The movies are not the the best herding moments because I make them for remote consultations with my herding friends.

Maja

#5 bcnewe2

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 11:40 AM

Check out Julie P's young dog Ranger. THat is what I like to see with a young dog starting sheep. Julie is not putting training pressure on him but he is doing things that are going to relate to stockwork later when he is old enough to put pressure on him.
Yes lots of ways to start a dog and lots of things depend on when you start a dog.
I will wait to see the progression on your dog when she gets to some training. :rolleyes:
Just curious, what do your herding friends have to say about Bonnie's start? I am just trying to understand the different methods.
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#6 Maja

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 12:24 PM

Check out Julie P's young dog Ranger.

I will with pleasure.

That is what I like to see with a young dog starting sheep

I don't expect everybody to fall in love with Bonnie or the method or me :rolleyes: .

Just curious, what do your herding friends have to say about Bonnie's start? I am just trying to understand the different methods.

We actually don't talk as much about Bonnie as we do about me handling Bonnie, it is usually "at 2'32'' you do such and such and probably would have been better if you did such and such, because of such and such." You couldn't squeeze an evaluation of Bonnie out of them nohow :D . However, my herding teacher saw her once - the first time with the sheep, and he was very pleased with with her (with and without the sheep) said I can do short sessions with her. He will see her again on our sheep i a couple of weeks, since they are a differen cup of tea than his sheep.

On the English speaking end, I try to raise Bonnie the way Derek Scrimgeour suggests in the video The Shepherd's Pup and Vergil S. Holland says in Herding Dogs. Progressive Training. There is not much about this stage there tough.

If you are intersted in results of early introduction to sheep, here is a movie of my friend's Ola's Roy and Skip. Roj is in class II trial since 2009, he is less than 3 years old. Skip is 8 moths old. Both were exposed to sheep very early. Skip and Roj are brothers, and they are half-brothers to Bonnie (the same father).
http://www.youtube.c...amp;feature=sub
Of course I am not saying I will have the same results, because the dogs are different and Ola and I are different :D

Maja


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#7 Maja

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 12:39 PM

I can't find those movies you mentioned.
maja

#8 muttlycrew

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 01:14 PM

I believe this is the video mentioned of Julie P's youngster, Ranger.

http://www.bordercol...showtopic=28444
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#9 bcnewe2

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 03:55 PM

I enjoyed watching how Roj kept the straggler lambs in with the rest of the flock.

Is that you in the video with Bonnie? I thought it was your trainer.
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#10 Sheepskin_border_collies

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 03:59 PM

As I am sure you know, there are many different approaches. And many people (and I mean experienced handlers) start their puppies at an earlier stage (5 months and up), but few people actually train puppies that early. The movies cover a period of 5.5 weeks with eight herding sessions, so it's roughly 1.5 session pr week, they last usually about 20 min with breaks, the last session was 10 minutes because it started pouring rain.

In general, I agree it's better to start later and begin with actual training right away. But this way is also possible; it is just a different approach. And with Bonnie I chose this way. She is from my own bitch Kelly and I had her from birth.

This is actually where the misunderstanding sometimes happens when one asks: "when do you start training a BC?" the answer is "usually 9-12 months".

But: "When do you start a dog on sheep?" The the answer varies.

Sheepskin_border_collies,
:rolleyes: Her mother is unbelievably fast, and the sheep are actually a sheep-cheetah cross :D . But Bonnie actually has a pretty good lie down. The movies are not the the best herding moments because I make them for remote consultations with my herding friends.

Maja



LoL I believe the hole sheep and Cheetah cross! They can boogie when they want too! Mine sure did.

There are so many ways now days on how people feel comfy with surtain training methods. The way I train, is I have my pups know EVERY command and know them well just by me saying them, and then we go to the Chickens and then the sheep and then to heifers. They start with down at 4 months old. Then we go up to the side commands and then walk up, and steady, oh and TAKE A HOLD :D I do all this with a training stick. a Long piece of pipe with a chain and piece of rubber on one end. SO It is pretty much playing a game, Then usally I put them on stock when they are able to do all that very well. Also the downing sessions are around 20minutes twice a day and then we start working on the side commands 30-45 minutes twice a day. Of course with a younge dog if they are acting like they are getting tired then we stop right away. Always want to leave them wanting more :D
Sarah and The Working Sheepskin Border Collies

#11 bcnewe2

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 04:07 PM

So all those things are taught dry with no sheep?
How do they know what to take a hold of?
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#12 Sheepskin_border_collies

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 04:23 PM

So all those things are taught dry with no sheep?
How do they know what to take a hold of?



Yep That is correct. I feel that it makes the dog more comfy if it already knows what I am saying and their natural instinct kicks in when they get on the chickens or sheep. It just falls all into place. I teach them to take ahold of the piece of rubber, or whatever I tyed on the other end. So if I say take ahold of a rope, stuffy, chicken butt, or sheep leg/nose, They will :rolleyes: I just find it soo much easier, I have done a few dogs on just taking them right on sheep, but it is just so much easier it seems to me, when they know a little bit more than just kinda getting over welmed with these new creatures to chase, handler saying a lot of strange words, ect. I Might work a dog on the "training stick" for three months or more, until I feel that they are understanding each command and knowing how to work each command smoothly into another.
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#13 PSmitty

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 05:51 PM

Thanks for sharing, Maja. Your Bonnie is lovely, and since you posted her videos, I hope that means you're open to our comments. As Kristen already mentioned, I'd be a bit concerned letting her do all that circling. Admittedly, I only watched part of the first and all of the last video. I'm very much a novice, but my trainer has discouraged that kind of circling in my dogs, other than some during their very first exposure.

Best wishes for your continued training.
Paula
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#14 muttlycrew

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 06:29 PM

I am greener than grass when it comes to this (maybe even greener than that :rolleyes: ), but I thought one should encourage the dog to be behind the flock and gather them to the handler and not circle behind. At least this is what my trainer told me. He, like Paula said, also discourages constant circling except in the dogs first exposure.

Thanks for sharing and I look forward to seeing her progress. :D
Katy

#15 bcnewe2

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 09:32 PM

Sarah
Have you ever finished a dog that you dry trained first?
For us (me and my crew) the sheep is where we learn to dance. The commands come after we are working the sheep.
But's that us and might not fit you.
My first 2 dogs were circlers. I knew no better and let that go on. It hampered their feel for balance in the end. Or, they were rescues and never had much balance to begin with.
In the second vid that you posted it looked like she was starting to feel balance a bit but then went back to circling in the later videos.
If you are the person in the vid, it would make sence that you are a beginner and maybe a bit slow on helping her find that sweet spot but if that's your trainer then I would think it's something she is allowing to happen.
Just a bit confusing to me.
Kristen The world is a magical place...   

#16 Maja

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 01:02 AM

bcnewe2
In the very first video you can see me and our trainer -Tomek. In all the other videos, it is I (all except the ones with Ola and her dogs :rolleyes: ) and without Tomek's assitance.
PSmitty
Yes, I hope we can share our views. I must say I understand your concern about circling constatnly, and had I started Bonnie at 9 mothns I would not have allowed her to do so. As you can see in Ola's videos it in no way prevents the dog (as you can see in Roj) from learning within a reasonable time to balance, drive , etc. (Roj started his trialing career at under 1.5 year). In the second video, I do more blocking because the conditions were right for it. Nonetheless, Ola lets her dog cicle in their young age and it seem to have no negative effect later. i think that the dogs maturity is crucial here and the timing of the handler

In the last video, I corrected her rarely because there was another dog waiting and he was barking constatnly, and she was very excited, so I was easy on her. We will not train together like that anymore. When it comes to the amount of correction and blocking it is a matter of how much she can take in a given session, and we will certainly work on stopping the circling. We had a bit of a problem because the sheep are smart cookies and they figured that she was young and were trying to practice sticking to the fence. Because of that I corrected her less once we were in the middle of the training area. We have solved the problem of sticky sheep (and it would have been a big problem han't we solved it real fast), and I will show you how she reacts to blocking in more optimal conditions.

best wishes,
Maja

#17 Maja

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 03:04 AM

Check out Julie P's young dog Ranger. THat is what I like to see with a young dog starting sheep. Julie is not putting training pressure on him but he is doing things that are going to relate to stockwork later when he is old enough to put pressure on him.

Absolutely lovely dog! and probably from a much better stock than Bonnie's. However, it is not a video of him starting on sheep, Julie says there that he's been on sheep about 10 times.

When it comes to commands I was plnning to tach Bonnie lie down on the sheep, but then changed my mind and decided I was not experienced enough to do that. So I taught her to lie down off the sheep, and also recall was off the sheep. Everything else will be with the sheep.

In the second vid that you posted it looked like she was starting to feel balance a bit but then went back to circling in the later videos.
If you are the person in the vid, it would make sence that you are a beginner and maybe a bit slow on helping her find that sweet spot but if that's your trainer then I would think it's something she is allowing to happen.

Who is this part addressed to?

Here are the same links gain with some more explanation in bold:
This is her very first time with the sheep (5.5 month):
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=lMpxvtG3HiI
Of course it's the little goofy dog running in circles that is Bonnie, the other one -the calm assisting dog is a Polish herding champion - Jonda. Sorry about the quality, the others are better.
Here all we wanted to do is assess roughly the dog. The idea was - how independent is she? e.g. will she go to the sheep right away or will she hesitate, will she go to the sheep from a longer distance, is she interested in the sheep when I am not. Is she keen, is she gentle with the sheep? is she fearful? etc. Also will she come when called? Does she react to praise?

Here is Bonnie's 4th time with the sheep (the first time was with our friend's sheep. These sheep are ours):
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZouK0cCBRA""][/url]
Here is a video where I started to block her. No always though, sometimes I just let her run around. But sometimes I let her circle because the sheep go before me and this is then where the balance is - the point of control.

Bonnie's 7th time with the sheep:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M0ekGnYBTOE
Here we had a generally very difficult situation (not in the video, but the last 3 herding sessions including this one, but here the problem is being solved) because as I mentioned the sheep decided to make a stand against the fence at every opportunity. I solved the problem albeit not very elegantly, and there is a much better way to do it. The problem with unsticking them was that having a choice between the dog and me they would choose to stay put. So here I let Bonnie circle because the sheep would use the moments of her turning to escape. The second difficulty was the white ewe. We bought her recently with the little lamb.

And her last (8 time) - at 6.5 months. It is with music rather than the original sound because there was another dog waiting and he was barking like mad):
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=MenLSHzbOYU
This is the very next herding, and I got rid of the ewe, and all I wanted to do if for Bonnie to first regain her confidence, before I star putting pressure on her, I started blocking here some toward the end. As I said earlier, she wans a little wound up because of the presence of her brother, I was planning to tire her out a little move the brother further away, but after 10 minutes it started raining in sheets and we had to go home.


So that's all for now. If it ever stops raining in sheets I will bring an update :D . On Sunday we all shall pretend that we are not country bumpkins and will go to a dogshow, Bonnie and also Daisy-a Bernese Mountain Sheepdog who works as a body guard for the sheep. Lest just hope the groomer is a miracle worker :rolleyes: .

Thanks for all the comments :D

Maja

#18 Sheepskin_border_collies

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 08:26 AM

Sarah
Have you ever finished a dog that you dry trained first?
For us (me and my crew) the sheep is where we learn to dance. The commands come after we are working the sheep.
But's that us and might not fit you.
My first 2 dogs were circlers. I knew no better and let that go on. It hampered their feel for balance in the end. Or, they were rescues and never had much balance to begin with.
In the second vid that you posted it looked like she was starting to feel balance a bit but then went back to circling in the later videos.
If you are the person in the vid, it would make sence that you are a beginner and maybe a bit slow on helping her find that sweet spot but if that's your trainer then I would think it's something she is allowing to happen.
Just a bit confusing to me.


Oh yeah, i have trained and finished many dogs in this way. Im a stock dog trainer down here, well before i had to sell out, im getting back into it but very slowly... :-( :rolleyes: I started getting into it around, oh goodness, 11 years ago now i think. My where does the time go!
All my dogs were trained this way, and worked cattle as advanced on our ranch. Doing big pasture work, and coral work. Which i believe is two different working styles. If i could ever figure out to get videos up, id post some, but for some reason it doesnt like me :D
Sarah and The Working Sheepskin Border Collies

#19 Maja

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Posted 18 May 2010 - 09:49 AM

Sarah,
This all sounds very interesting. I think it is very important that the handler feels comfortable with what he or she is doing. That's why I like my herding instructor - he will accept anything that I do as long as he can't see anything detrimental to the dog in it and that it actually accomplishes the purpose. E.g. I use repeated commands, which for some people are a mortal sin. One person insisted that it was impossible to lead from repeated command to non-repeated commands, even after I showed her my dog with a perfectly good lie down after only one command, who was taught that way.

If you like you can send a couple of movies to me and I will post them. Maybe I will have better luck.
_____________

Aforementioned Ola also has a herding Sheltie, for those interested here is a video:
http://www.youtube.c...eos=rWoaqFgb13c

Maja

majawn @ yahoo.com (take out the spaces of course :rolleyes: )

#20 Sheepskin_border_collies

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 08:30 AM

Sarah,
This all sounds very interesting. I think it is very important that the handler feels comfortable with what he or she is doing. That's why I like Tomek - he will accept anything that I do as long as he can't see anything detrimental to the dog in it and that it actually accomplishes the purpose. E.g. I use repeated commands, which for some people are a mortal sin. One person insisted that it was impossible to lead from repeated command to non-repeated commands, even after I showed her my dog with a perfectly good lie down after only one command, who was taught that way.

If you like you can send a couple of movies to me and I will post them. Maybe I will have better luck.
_____________

Aforementioned Ola also has a herding Sheltie, for those interested here is a video:
http://www.youtube.c...eos=rWoaqFgb13c

Maja

majawn @ yahoo.com (take out the spaces of course :rolleyes: )



Thanks for the offer. Might take you up on that....but I think my problem is that i am trying to get the videos off photobucket insted of taking them strait from my computer. Sat down lastnight and went threw some of my pictures and found a lot of vids i would love to post. :D So i am going to get them on a disc and try it that way. If that doesnt work you might be hearing from me!
Sarah and The Working Sheepskin Border Collies


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