226 replies to this topic

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

Miss Sarah writes (in part):
" . . .If you want her to circle so much then that is your choice, you will be working her not anyone else:) but on the other hand I do believe that if you are going to stop her now is the time too do it...also in the first video I see that sometimes you stop her and if she doesnt stop then you just let her disobey...I am a big believer in "I only have to say it once" a . . .

I also believe you should praise all the time when they are doing something good, and then dicourage when they are doing something bad...No reason I can see why you can not praise your dog for something good. Again though thats why I train with no sheep first, gives more structure before we go onto the sheep."

A couple points: circling is the first thing the handler and young sheepdog do together on stock. It is where the dog learns that he and handler are a team and he (the dog) must -more-or-less obey simple commands. There is no magic in circling and, ultimately no purpose - it is a training tool/stage to start the dog. One should move on to short fetches as soon as the handler has some control of the dog.

In practice, most of us employ a number of commands before sheep "That'll do, here", "Get in the car" "Leave it!" etc, but excepting the recall, these are informally taught (and the recall may be as well.) Some teach a "down" off sheep. Most don't.

Most novices overuse praise which tends to distract the dog and release it from its task. When a handler downs his young dog and walks toward it to leash it, he may say "Down." "Down." "Down." He ought not say "Good Doggie!" or the zooming will recommence.

Praise can be instructional: "That's right! Do it that way!" Or "Don't lose confidence. It's tough but you'll prevail!" As a handler-feels-good-about-himself-since he's-kindly, praise is/are words ill spent.

One command=prompt obedience is a mantra of pet obedience trainers and makes pretty good sense when so many owners futilly "nag" their dogs. While I will insist on a brief "down" with young dogs, I am not teaching them that "Down" means "DOWN" only that they must submit their will to mine.

When one is running an open dog, your dog's unwillingness to take a flank the first time it's offered may cause you to miss a panel but more likely you can give the command a second time more forcefully and no harm done. And in tense moments at the shed or pen, you may wish to give repeated commands so the dog doesn't leap up. "Lie down lie down lie down" when the dog is already off its feet.

Donald McCaig

[Maja]

I think the video would very useful. I think that exchanging views can be very productive.
However telling me what to do I do I think goes beyond merely having a discussion (I am not referring to your posts). If anyone wishes to express their view that circling is bad, then I do not wish to stop the person (however many times they might want to ) . If you want to show an alternative way of training a very young bc I would be very happy to see it, since I am learning all the time. And comparing different approaches can be very useful. I hope I will be able to show you Roj (I mentioned him earlier and he is in one of Ola's videos) - a finished and very accomplished dog dog - that was taught more or less that way. I have his vid at the age of 8 months.

However, I would like to repeat: I am sorry I failed to take the intention behind all your post - the intention of wanting to help. I should have know better. Please, let's try again - we will tell one another about our preferred methods and live happily every after

Kristin,
I was not referring to your posts.

Mr. Donald,
I mentioned it because some herders do not use repeated commands in training either.

Maja

[bcnewe2]

Sarah
Where is quitman AR? I lived close to Ft. Smith for 3+ years. I was a member of both AR stockdog clubs. Wondering if we ever met?

[stockdogranch]

If I can get this link to work, here's a couple of vids of a 6 month old pup working calves. I'm not putting pressure on her, just letting her find balance and bring the stock to me. As you might be able to hear, she also takes a down with the whistle,
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9BfN0n03xc0
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9BfN0n03xc0
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-gklfzDHCO8
(Videos courtesy of Danielle)
A
ETA: I'm one of those people who start them really young, but don't put a ton of pressure on them. I like to let them get a feel for their stock, and keep it fun, but still not let them develop bad habits...

[juliepoudrier]

I just went through this whole thread and would have commented earlier if I had realized Ranger and I were a part of it!

Anna (and Maja),
I see nothing wrong with starting a dog young. I started Twist at 4 months old and she ran in her first trial before she was a year old and was running in P/N shortly after she turned a year old and running in her first finals at age 3. Personally I think it depends entirely on the dog, so I will introduce the dog to stock fairly young, assess where the dog is mentally, and then go from there. Pip and Phoebe (Twist's son and daughter) were also tried on sheep fairly early, but they required a lot more management (type of sheep, location of the work, etc.) than Twist ever did. They certainly weren't trialing and winning at a year old like their mom was.

Anyway, you Anna are a very experienced trainer and stock person. I would expect that you would know how to start a very young dog properly without allowing bad habits to be developed and without putting too much pressure on a pup, nor with being too permissive because of youngness. I think that's an important distinction. A novice starting a dog very young is not as likely to have the timing, ability to read the dog correctly, and experience to make those early times on stock a *good* learning experience, IMO.

Maja,
With respect to Ranger, yes, that video was probably his 10th time on sheep. And as I also said, the week the video was taken was the first in which I really made an effort to do any real training with him. And then I really wasn't doing any training because I'm not talented enough to train the dog and video at the same time, so basically what you're seeing there is his natural instinct at work, given that he has been on sheep 10 times before (but I should also note that when I take a young dog out on sheep, I work for a few minutes at a time. Those videos were the entire training session that day, and it couldn't have been maybe 10 minutes' worth--there are four additional videos I did not upload to YouTube because it takes so long to do so).

I know you don't particularly want to hear more about the circling, but it's really what struck me in the all the videos you posted. From the very first time I put Ranger on sheep, I worked to help him go to balance and fetch the sheep to me (that is, get behind the sheep across from me and then start moving toward the sheep to bring them to me (as you saw in the video). When he showed he was sensible enough to be out in an open area, I moved him out there quickly because he flanked a lot behind the sheep, just like your Bonnie is doing in many of the videos (when she's not circling anyway). I wanted to discourage that flankiness (flanking or wearing side to side behind the sheep), so I borrowed sheep that would stay with me--no running past me to encourage his instinct to go to their heads to kick in--and then I would let him go around and as soon as he got to balance I was backing up and letting him bring the sheep to me. Yes, ocasionally the sheep would surge past me and he'd start to circle around. If I wasn't quick enough to stop the sheep from passing me and then stop him from going to their heads, then I just let him circle that one time (this occurred a couple of times in the video I posted). But in general, one of my first training goals was to help him feel comfortable behind the sheep and pushing them toward me. I don't want his default behavior ever to be flanking off the pressure sheep might put on him--I want him to always be willing to walk straight into them.

But even in a round pen where there's not room to do much more than circle, I try to encourage a pup of any age to come to balance and start walking in on its sheep. I'm working with a young dog right now that I believe was allowed to circle too much and I'm having to train it out of her now. I don't mind a dog that stays out to the side to hold the lead ewe, but flying past me and then circling on around is not what I want a dog to do.

The other thing I would do, as someone else mentioned, is just get rid of that ewe and lamb. By allowing her to leave them behind most of the time, you're teaching her that it's okay to do that, and I don't think you mean to do that, since occasionally you do try to get her to go get that ewe to join up to the group. I realize we can't always have perfect stock to train a dog on, but for a dog that young I think I'd try to find a way to just remove the bad actors completely so she doesn't get the idea that leaving sheep behind is okay. Similarly, if the ewe with the lamb is willing to challenge her: I wouldn't want a youngster to have to face a challenge from a ewe with a lamb until the pup was a lot more confident in its ability to control stock.

As for commands, I am somewhat the opposite of Sarah. My youngsters will know what lie down means off stock and will have a recall, but that's it. In the video of Ranger you will note that the only command I ever used on him was "lie down." Because with a dog that young I don't want to put a lot of pressure on them, I accept any form of stop when I ask for a lie down (you may have noticed that Ranger never actually lied down, but he did stop). There's one point in the second video (I think) where he's on balance and I tell him to lie down and as I step forward he takes off on a flank. I don't bother to repeat the lie down until he's back on balance, again because that's the natural place for him to lie down and so it makes no sense to keep telling him lie down as he's flanking around, since he's likely just to ignore me anyway (at least till he gets on balance). So I will repeat commands (like lie down) when he's stopped and I want him to stay stopped, but I won't repeat commands that he's ignoring anyway because I think then the command becomes meaningless (like nagging that the dog just eventually tunes out).

At whatever age I start a youngster, I pretty much use the "shut up and let them figure it out" method. I don't want to throw a bunch of commands at a dog that is experiencing livestock work for the first few times because I want the dog's attention mostly on the stock. I believe strongly in allowing the dog to develop its natural instinct to read stock and react appropriately to them and by keeping my mouth shut and just correcting the mistakes (while trying to avoid them happening in the first place), I allow the pup to develop that crucial feel for the stock.

As for amount of praise or not, I use praise if/when it seems appropriate, but again I'm not out there talking my youngster's ear off while he's trying to learn to read and control sheep and balance his instincts, which may be overwhelming him at times, with my desire for a certain end result (say, moving the sheep from one end of the pasture to the other). So for example, if Ranger is fetching the sheep to me and decides to rate his pace without me saying anything to him, I might say a soft "good." But I don't think praise is necessary, because when the dog is working right and things click, it will feel right to the dog and that feeling alone is a form of praise.

Anyway, I will be interested to watch as Bonnie progresses. I'll also try to post more videos of Ranger as we progress.

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

Ms. Maja wrote:

"I mentioned it because some herders do not use repeated commands in training either"

I don't doubt herders do all sorts of things. Many less interesting than others.

Donald McCaig

[Sheepskin_border_collies]

Hi Sarah,
Just wondering, what venues have you trialed in?

Laurae - Hey, Nothing big...just local runs that farmers put together...and Think I went to one in dequeen, been to one in Heber Springs too I think. Its been oh goodness 5 yrs sence I have trialed...just dont have the time for it anymore, and when my trialing and best friend and dog Rex Passed is when I quit..just wasnt the same without him. I would like to get back into it now though if i could find the time and go into some that actually "count"

Oh Just to make myself clear...I am giving opinions on what I do on STARTED dogs..as the dog progresses, training changes for me...I praise to a dog that is just learning what he or she is doing and then as i feel they are understanding what I want I back up and just encorage the dog like Donald was talking about. Just like when Hannah gets cow or bull that doesnt want to move..I talk to her as if I am her couch...come one! you can do it...show him who is boss good dog...bring him on ect.. and you can really see the confidence build, cause they really want to please that is what the breed is about and why they make great working dogs over all others, Cause I want to make you happy and when they know they are making you happy then they would happy and work harder for you.

"Down" on the other hand is the first thing that I teach(and off the sheep, we start this at 4months old)...cause for me...I think showing good controle over your dog is a great thing, and it keeps the cattle that will run...more than sheep...calm if the dog is down and looks ledd intence. So I want a GOOD solid down..which i mean when I say down my dogs stop in their tracks and put on the brakes and DOWN and with the head on the ground. I know some people dont see this as a main issue...which is cool too for them. I also like starting out a dog young cause you can take it slower and he or she doesnt pick up as much bad habbits..and a "puppy" has a little more drive to play and in my case training on the training stick I need them to chase and play to learn.

bcnewe2 - Do you have a magnetfying glass?? It is about three hours I think from Ft Smith on the east side. I just recently moved up here though, which the reason I had to sell out. I used to have a farm and ran it with my parents for 20 years in Center Ridge, AR which is even smaller, but more in the back woods. I never belonged to any club even though i have thought about it greatly, Just never did it.

"As for commands, I am somewhat the opposite of Sarah. My youngsters will know what lie down means off stock and will have a recall, but that's it. In the video of Ranger you will note that the only command I ever used on him was "lie down." Because with a dog that young I don't want to put a lot of pressure on them, I accept any form of stop when I ask for a lie down (you may have noticed that Ranger never actually lied down, but he did stop). There's one point in the second video (I think) where he's on balance and I tell him to lie down and as I step forward he takes off on a flank. I don't bother to repeat the lie down until he's back on balance, again because that's the natural place for him to lie down and so it makes no sense to keep telling him lie down as he's flanking around, since he's likely just to ignore me anyway (at least till he gets on balance). So I will repeat commands (like lie down) when he's stopped and I want him to stay stopped, but I won't repeat commands that he's ignoring anyway because I think then the command becomes meaningless (like nagging that the dog just eventually tunes out)." I agree with this extremely! exactly what I do with the down, of course except for the teaching every thing else on sheep, It is their natural stuff to want to be strait across from you and so at first on a beginner you want to only down them on balance(sorry forgot to explain that further)but yes everything else I agree in this

[herdcentral]

Thankyou for the very informative post by JulieP it was totally fab.

I too am a complete novice training 2 young dogs. Watching the videos of Ranger and Bonnie I realised that my young BC is somewhere in between. He does tend to rush up at the sheep a bit too fast and then sometimes default to a circle although recently that seems to be improving and he is listening to his stop command much better. I have tried to limit the circling as insticntively it didnt seem quite right mainly because we all got dizzy, although I wasnt sure if it was or not.

It has been a fantastic discussion and I am now ready to go back out and try and take some of what I have read here on board.

[Maja]

Dear Julie,

Thank you for the informative post. I agree with everything you wrote. The last threesome of the videos was for me to figure out what sort of line to take with Bonnie, so that I don't put too much pressure on her and yet we can cooperate.
--------------

So these are my conclusions: As you of course know, the pressure on the dog from the handler can come from the body, voice and looking at the dog (I didn't know about the last one with my previous dog and couldn't figure out why she did great during regular farm chores with brilliant sheep sense, and yet she was so wired up during training). My conclusion is that Bonnie takes the pressure form the body best, particularly if I go easy on looking at her. Stick and voice is too much for her as is no correction at all. It was clear to me that she wants my guidance and feels very insecure without it. This is very good in my opinion. I worked on Bonnie from the beginning to be tough for the outside world and to trust me and look to me for guidance.

So my purpose now is to work on my body language to make it clearer to her. Ola has told me that my timing for turning her is often bad. I also have to work on communication with Bonnie in such a way that does not cause an automatic pushing away of her from me. I think it did not show on the videos, but she stopped lying down patiently and letting me come over to her because of me being too forceful - my bending over to her (to put the leash on) meant to her "move away." So that has/had to be worked on. I think that with this I can make her find a balance and calm down a bit.

So these are my short term aims.

Now for the other source of pressure - the stock. I am sorry I forgot to mention right from the beginning that I fully agree , and I am fully aware the Snowball is a pain in the neck and shouldn't be there during training. However, it is sometimes difficult to separate her from the flock and leave her behind within a reasonable time, because the training area and she sheep anclosure are rather farm away from each other. But I will try to herd without her as much as possible, and also she is being taught better sheep manners by Bonnie's mother, and moreover, in two months she probably won't have her little lambchops with her which will influence her behavior.

My "philosophy" for all dog training is that it must be a resultant of the dog's abilities and handler's preferences. I think that Bonnie is ok to start now. But that doesn't mean that if I have another dog I will do the same. Actually it is almost certain that another dog will be trained differently. I also think that with some dogs it is good to be very exacting with commands, but but others might be crushed by it. For every dog one has to tailor the approach.


OT: I mentioned earlier that I am taking my bernese to a groomer who needs to be a miracle worker to turn a sheepdog into a show dog. Well, she (the groomer) thinking that will be bringing two dogs brought her husband to help, and the two of them worked on Daisy for FOUR hours!

Later I will give a link to Roj at the age of 8 months, where he still has a little of circling. Roj was started on runner duck at the age of 3 months, then on sheep at the age of 5 months. At the age of two (when he started trialing) he was II runner up in Farmer's style herding competition, passed HWT, and then won novice trial championship, and then moved to class II trial.

So now off I go to see the videos of stockdogranch
Maja

[Maja]

I wanted to put a link to one of my last herding sessions with Kelly - Bonnie's mother:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=SaaMo89H6cM

Kelly had all the possible disadvantages a sheepdog could have -
1. two handlers instead of one, both completely green,
2. very very flighty and super fast sheep neither dog broke nor people broke (had no interest to go towards people) with an ornery ram in their midst (for some flavor of his character here is his solo: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2hrww7XBNBU )
3. and no teacher withing 200 miles.

Considering all of the above Kelly should not herd at all. But in the end she managed - she has loved to herd from day one, and I love her dearly for her strength of character. She is a very good companion on the farm, very independent in her thinking (not surprisingly) with very good sheep sense. At about this time on the movie, we decided that Kelly will be handled mostly by my husband, since he does most of the sheep related farm work. Ramzes the Ramming Ram is gone, but Kelly subdued him before he left the farm.

All this is just for you as a background information.

Maja

[Maja]

If I can get this link to work, here's a couple of vids of a 6 month old pup working calves. I'm not putting pressure on her, just letting her find balance and bring the stock to me. As you might be able to hear, she also takes a down with the whistle,
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9BfN0n03xc0
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9BfN0n03xc0
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-gklfzDHCO8

The first two links are the same

The videos are very nice! I like the pooch sneaking over to the person watching, just like Bonnie

Mr. Donald,
I just noticed your last post, and I agree with everything you wrote. It may not always show in the movies since the dynamics of human-dog-stock situation is complex and I can't always assess the situation fast enough. I think, Bonnie is not a willful dog, if I rebuke her it's the end of the world for her. But I think that if I were harder on her I would break her.

Maja

[Denise Wall]

Interesting thread. We all must feel very tired.

Not sure you want my input but IMO whoever is handling this dog (Bonnie) is not giving it anything to do. Where is the work for the dog? (See, I never said the "C" word.)

Just because a dog overcomes a poor training method and makes a decent dog of itself doesn't mean it's an optimal training method. Just sayin'.

[Maja]

I am handling Bonnie throughout all the videos. What do you suggest to give a 6 moth old pup to do?
Maja

[PSmitty]

I hope Robin doesn't mind, but since I mentioned posting them, here are a couple of her videos working a young dog.

5 months old:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-zx8HKb5x-s

7 months old:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=YofFq9Ks34c

[bcnewe2]

What do you suggest to give a 6 moth old pup to do?

I would be taking the sheep from point A to point B. A destination. So Bonnie can start to understand there's a reason for doing this. If you can't get that I'd start with just walking more. Straight lines to help her stay behind her sheep. Speed up your pace so she isn't so quick to move behind you. Not running but maybe quicker walking. When you've gone a ways, then turn and go a differet way. again, letting Bonnie see that you are taking the sheep somewhere instead of just turning circles, which I see you get caught up in doing cause you're trying to get Bonnie behind the sheep. If the sheep rush past you, turn yourself in a different direction and start walking so Bonnie has a reason to bring the sheep back to you.

Pick a tree, walk to that, then pick another tree and walk to that. eventually Bonnie should get the idea that you are doing something useful and the "ringing" (new word) will start to settle down.

[Maja]

Kristen,
Sounds like a really good idea. I will put stakes from electric fence (they have a spike to drive them into the ground) and set out a route ahead of time and follow it.

Paula,
A lovely dog .
Maja

[stockdogranch]

What do you suggest to give a 6 moth old pup to do?

Well, if you notice in the videos I posted of Dot at 6 months, I am letting her gather the stock and bring them to me--I keep moving all the time to change the balance point, and she has to think and figure out how to keep the calves together and then to being them to me,
A

[Maja]

Stockdogranch,
Yes, I saw it, i will try to do it that way.
-------------

OT: Just to clarify what I wrote about Kelly - I wasn't trying to say that there was anything good about the whole situation, but we didn't have much choice then, we had livestock we couldn't leave for a day or two to go somewhere to train at that time, and we needed a dog to help us manage the sheep. We tried our best to learn all we could, but without hands-on experience it was very hard. Bonnie was raised altogether different from Kelly.

Maja

[Cynthia P]

I'm sure your instructor will help you out. I will occassionaly start puppies at 6 m.o. , but mainly later because I'm lazy. Take sheep from one place to another, short sessions, it shows a purpose.

One of the littermates to my oldest bitch was allowed to circle adnasium...for 2 years, because the instructor said she would eventually find her balance...outstanding agility dog but I think it really disappointed her owner that she didnt do well in herding.

cynthia

[Smalahundur]

Anyway, I will be interested to watch as Bonnie progresses. I'll also try to post more videos of Ranger as we progress.

J.

So am I, and please do post more vids of those dogs, the both of you. Combined with the discussion I think it´s extremely educational, you see what the starting dogs do, and read what their handlers want to accomplish. With the imput of experienced board members one gets a really good picture of the proces. Thumbs up!