226 replies to this topic

[Laurae]

If your videos are on Photobucket, you could just point us to their links.

[Maja]

Our herding from today:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=sgcHQubSlI8

I know i wave my hands too much, I don't know what got over me .

Maja

[Sheepskin_border_collies]

Looking Better! May I suggest a herding wond? Getting that balance is a big key...as you know I am sure....Also. Sence I cant hear what is going on......are you giving commands to go along with movment? Are you teaching a "right there"?

Love the slow motion stuff too

I am going to bring my discs tomorrow..if I can remember and hopefully have some videos posted up..The ones I want to post are not on my photobucket...go figure that would be to easy hehe

[Maja]

Yes, thank you I have one I just was too lazy to take it with me. I keep the original sound if it's good enough to make sense to keep it.

I only give her a command to lie down, everything else comes later in our training. She once lies down on her own. It's the scene with the ornery ewe, where Bonnie is afraid to go round her and I stop her from going the other way, so she lies down to think, so I back off to let her think, add then she gets up with the intention to go round the ewe, I encourage her to do so and she goes. I praise her a lot when she is doing things well.

Maja

[Maja]

I guess I scared everybody away... But i will show you something interesting later .
maja

[Sheepskin_border_collies]

lol

[Maja]

Ok, so here is today's herding in three installments and in chronological order:

1. With voice correction and stick, a lot of correction, praise:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=C21g4UGEeNE

2. With gestures only, gentle correction, praise:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XdzOIZGw3RI

3. No correction only praise:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KSMsZ8BukuQ

I would be happy to hear your thoughts on these movies.
Maja

[muttlycrew]

I will state once again that I am a complete novice at this, but I'll give it a shot

In 1, in looks like she was taking correction well with the stick to not keep circling around you. It looked like she was really paying attention to you and trying to figure out what you want. Movie 2 looked like she was trying to watch you and figure out what you want but still falls back into her default of circling. In movie 3, it seemed like she just went back to her default with a lot of circling and didn't seem to be watching you as much.

I know in our lessons, I walk around a lot (or the instructor does) and am always moving to change the balance point. . She responds really well to movement and never circles or cuts behind. The only words used right now is an occasional 'lie down' and a soft 'shhhhh'. Occasionally soft praise is used once or twice. The only negative praise is a "HEY!" or a low "Stella....". But again, that's maybe once or twice the whole lesson. We haven't stuck in any "real" commands yet, though.

I could be way off in left field (heck, maybe I'm not even in the stadium) but that's just what it looks like to my untrained eye. I will say this, I wish I had access to work my girl as much as you do. Totally jealous! Thanks for sharing your progress.

[kelpiegirl]

You have to stop the circling. You also need to get rid of the ewe and lamb. She is orbiting (circling sheep) which is a hard habit to break- basically, you need to stop it before it starts. You need to teach her to be on the other side of the sheep from you. No going behind you. You need to move around more changing the balance point. Verbal praise isn't really needed, just fade away if she is right, and only be present if she is wrong- correct her for trying to circle with a noise/body movement. If you miss correcting her, don't fuss, just be at the right place the next time.

I have some video of my young boy when he was learning, that I can try to get posted.

[jdarling]

In general, I agree it's better to start later and begin with actual training right away. But this way is also possible; it is just a different approach. And with Bonnie I chose this way. She is from my own bitch Kelly and I had her from birth.

Yes, but none of that means that she's mentally ready to begin training ... or even working. What is the advantage to starting a dog so young? What's the hurry? Do you have a trainer near you that could help you?

[Maja]

I was hoping for some insight on how she is responding to different levels of pressure. I made the three movies to see how much pressure she can take and what sort to pressure she takes well.

If you think that a 6 month old puppy must be stopped immediately from circling at all costs then that's fine. But I will not do it. I wrote earlier about the difference in age and a difference training and starting a dog on sheep. I will not stop praising her.

Yes, I have a teacher, and he is no. 1 BC handler (in sheep herding) in Poland, and he says that I can work with Bonnie now, and I will take the liberty of listening to him. We will train together again on June3, and if he says that I don't put enough pressure on Bonnie I will put more, if he says I put too much I will put less.

I understand that most of you think I must stop her now from circling. Fine. I think she is too young for that. You think she is too young to be on sheep. I disagree. OK? Can we move on now without going round and round the topic of circling and her age?

However, not wanting to irritate you folk any further with my too-young and too-circling dog. I will return when she stops doing it and grow up a bit - that is in about three months

muttlycrew,
Thank you for your comments. I agree with all the things you said in your second paragraph, I as I said in your topic, your Stella is very good. She is also much older than Bonnie . I move a little more that is shows in the movies, but when i move I move out of the camera rage, since I don't have anybody who can take the movie, so it looks a bit more static than it really is.

Best wishes,
Maja

[kelpiegirl]

The circling (orbiting) is not herding sheep. If your instructor believes that doing this in any way will help the dog progress, then, well, I suppose you have to go with that. Orbiting can become a very bad habit that stays forever.

As to the levels of pressure, as long as she circles, it isn't enough. Sorry. And, no, this is not some expert blathering on, I am far from that. I am simply somebody who has been where you are, and learned from my mistakes. Why train a dog wrong, because it's too young? Why not just wait a bit, and train it right?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,
Ms. Maja wrote:

"I use repeated commands, which for some people are a mortal sin."

Only in pet dog obedience.

Donald McCaig

[bcnewe2]

I made a mistake of offering you my opinion in the beginning when you didn't ask for it.
Now you ask for it.
I don't really see any difference in all the videos that you posted. I see a young dog who is circling sheep, not looking for balance and is in way to close to her sheep. She leaves out the ewe/lamb pair shich she feels is not part of her sheep group.
This for me is a dog who is not ready for training and without putting pressure on her which I think she is way to young for, she is learning bad habits.
Maybe if you moved more and had a destination where you were both going she might start to get the idea but as it is, all i see is a dog that is not learning stuff that will be helpful later.
I take all my pups out to sheep with me as babies. They do know what sheep are, but when they turn on and are to young to put pressure on, I put them up till it's time.

I don't mean to be rough on your methods or your dog, but now that you asked for opinions, I offer you mine.

No one is trying to be mean or critical but when people post videos on this site, they are usually looking for opinions. It's up to them to take the good ones and learn from them and throw out the bad.

Good luck with you dog.

[Maja]

I don't mind people giving opinions, since I asked for them by posting the videos, and I am grateful for all your comments. However, I think that the form of an opinion is also important, and I got a little upset about that - it doesn't take much more typing to form an opinion politely. But again, I should look more at the intention behind it.

As I said, not wanting to tax your patience, I will post some movies at her later stage. Perhaps I will come back to you crying perhaps not.

Best wishes,
Maja

[Sheepskin_border_collies]

I believe that the first video is your best there so far. If you want her to circle so much then that is your choice, you will be working her not anyone else:) but on the other hand I do believe that if you are going to stop her now is the time too do it...also in the first video I see that sometimes you stop her and if she doesnt stop then you just let her disobey...I am a big believer in "I only have to say it once" and this is going to make her think that she doesnt have to lisen to you every time. When a dog disobeys me, I will stop and make sure they do it right...just like a little kid they push you all the time and test you. Then I would strongly recconmend that you not train with the ewe and her lamb in there...that is just teaching her to leave one behind and momma sheep dont like dogs, and it can confuse the doggie. See you got the herding wand though

I also believe you should praise all the time when they are doing something good, and then dicourage when they are doing something bad...No reason I can see why you can not praise your dog for something good. Again though thats why I train with no sheep first, gives more structure before we go onto the sheep

[muttlycrew]

muttlycrew,
Thank you for your comments. I agree with all the things you said in your second paragraph, I as I said in your topic, your Stella is very good. She is also much older than Bonnie .

Thank you. The only reason I've started her at 1.5 years old is because I've only had her for 3 months . I feel she is very mature on stock. She keeps nice distance, reads them well, and overall is a great beginner dog for me. However, I've recently taken a break with her in agility. In that venue, she just isn't mature enough. She is getting too obstacle focused and doing stuff she feels is more fun. She is not following my handling and commands, just simply doing what she wants. I don't want to put too much pressure on her and make it not fun (for either of us!), so we are taking a break and will try again in a few weeks and keep the lessons short and sweet. My other dogs were a lot more mature than she is when they were her age. I keep forgetting that.

I can see how some are saying allowing a dog to circle (Orbit) so much can cause a habit that is hard to break. Seeing Bonnie just do that over and over reminds me of my Stella doing whatever she feels like doing in agility, disregarding what I really want her to be doing. I know stock work and agility are two entirely different venues, but since I'm coming from a sports type background, this comparison is the best I can do.

I think approach #1 in the movie is the better option for your girl right now. I think as soon as she realizes she can't just go around and around and actually has to find a balance point and feel her sheep, things will be better. I look forward to hear what your trainer suggests when you see him.

Thanks again for posting your progress. I hope you continue to do so.

[Laurae]

I believe that the first video is your best there so far. If you want her to circle so much then that is your choice, you will be working her not anyone else:) but on the other hand I do believe that if you are going to stop her now is the time too do it...also in the first video I see that sometimes you stop her and if she doesnt stop then you just let her disobey...I am a big believer in "I only have to say it once" and this is going to make her think that she doesnt have to lisen to you every time. When a dog disobeys me, I will stop and make sure they do it right...just like a little kid they push you all the time and test you. Then I would strongly recconmend that you not train with the ewe and her lamb in there...that is just teaching her to leave one behind and momma sheep dont like dogs, and it can confuse the doggie. See you got the herding wand though

I also believe you should praise all the time when they are doing something good, and then dicourage when they are doing something bad...No reason I can see why you can not praise your dog for something good. Again though thats why I train with no sheep first, gives more structure before we go onto the sheep

Hi Sarah,
Just wondering, what venues have you trialed in?

[bcnewe2]

I don't mind people giving opinions, since I asked for them by posting the videos, and I am grateful for all your comments. However, I think that the form of an opinion is also important, and I got a little upset about that - it doesn't take much more typing to form an opinion politely. But again, I should look more at the intention behind it.

Yes I think you should look at the intention. I for one was not trying to be rude or impolite. I don't know how to say what I've said more politly.
So I will step out of this conversation and wish both you and your Bonnie good luck.

[PSmitty]

FWIW, I don't think ANYONE responding to Maja has been rude or impolite, Kristen. *shrugs*

I haven't watched the most recent videos yet (I can't from work, go figure ). But, when I get a chance, I will, and then I also want to find some of Robin's videos and post a link. She has several videos of young dogs on sheep, and shows that you can give them exposure to sheep without too much training or pressure, while also not letting them develop bad habits (like too much circling). Hopefully that'll be helpful.

ETA: Oops, I just noticed Maja said this:

I understand that most of you think I must stop her now from circling. Fine. I think she is too young for that. You think she is too young to be on sheep. I disagree. OK? Can we move on now without going round and round the topic of circling and her age?

I wasn't trying to perpetuate the discussion if you don't want to, sorry. I just didn't see this until after I posted. I won't bother with Robin's videos.