226 replies to this topic

[Maja]

Dear Sue and Eileen,

Thank you for replying. But that's why I wanted to explain, because he most natural thing is to project one's own situation unto another country, as it has been in this topic with the availability of sheep for instance. Recently in Poland people have started to import BC from sound European stock, although they still have to face the shows in Poland if they want to breed them. For males it is more difficult because they must obtain three 'excellents' (a female can get away with very good). Which is an additional difficulty - in most other countries in Europe it is enough to get 'good' in conformation for breeding, or even (as is the case in France I believe) just breed pedigree to pedigree without show conformation. A similar situation is in the Czech Republic, where ISDS and FCI seem to cooperate quite well, and herding there flourishes.

Maja

[Maja]

So after the explanation here comes again the FCI Bonnie , 10 months old this time .

In the video, we are doing:
- a little of figure eights,
- teeny-weeny outruns,
- a little wearing,
- actual fetching (I am not sure I am using the right term - Bonnie and the sheep are one place, I am in another and she brings them to me
- coming to me from the balance position.

Bonnie does not know the directions yet - come bye or away. I was told to wait with it until I get a good distance on her, so I am doing it, but finding it a little cumbersome sometimes. I've tried to start on driving but didn't succeed. It goes better on the larger pasture, and the last couple of times we practiced in the training area to get started on the teeny-weeny outruns (if one may call them that at this stage). Also in the training area I allow her a smaller distance provided she goes straight and the sheep are calm. Also later, each time I set her in a position in the direction I want her to go.

There is the original audio, but mostly you can hear strong wind (Earl here? ) , so the best is mute.

So FWIW :
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=IwuKu_LRl2M

Maja

[jdarling]

You lie her down quite a bit, almost to the point of using it as a crutch. What about not lying her down at all, and teaching her to rate herself -- thereby making her responsible for the sheep instead of you?

[Maja]

Thank you for the comment . She also lies down a lot on her own. I taught her to stand, which she does well e.g. when we are walking towards the sheep and still have far to go. But when we are actually working the sheep, she lies down on "stand". I don't correct her for that but I don't praise her either. She has become very sensitive to my voice, and I think she lies down just to be on the safe side, which means I must use a gentler tone of voice for 'stand'. I introduced 'stand' as looser sort of command than lie down. Because of the wind you can't hear probably what I'm saying to her, but sometimes i say 'stand' and she lies down. I think she'll get over it if I can manage to control my voice a little more. Apart from all that, I do have an awful habit of using lie down way too much. The way I work now is that I record what I we do, and the wathc it at home, and I write down notes for next time, so I will add "kick myself everytime i want to sey "lie down" .

best wishes,
Maja

[jdarling]

Lie down ... stand ... same thing. Either way, you're stopping her rather than making her think and making her responsible for deciding what is too much pressure. It looks to me like where she lies down on her own is now habit for her because she's anticipating that those are the places where you're going to lay her down anyway. It does not look like she's clappy and is lying down in relation to what's happening. Then again, I'm not a trainer, never claim to be, and have a hard enough time showing someone what I mean. Explaining it over the internet is almost impossible. If I find something that explains what I'm getting at, I'll post it.

[Maja]

I think I know what you mean, and in general I was agreeing with you, explaining what are all the other factors. This training area is not so go for training at this stage in general, but I went there to start on the outruns. There is an area behind that is unfenced and if I can get my courage up, I will go to practice in the open.

Maja

[jdarling]

From here, the training area looks fine. What I see is all the "walk up," "lie down," "stand," etc., commands ... and her only responsibility is doing what you tell her to do. It makes for a very mechanical dog. You're stopping her before something "bad" happens, and making yourself responsible for everything that goes on. She doesn't seem to be feeling where the sheep's "bubble" is because she's never allowed to hit it, and pop it, scatter it up, and go through the hassle of cleaning up the mess. She has no reason to rate herself because you say "walk up," and she walks up until you tell her to stop (either in the form of "lie down" or "stand" ... whichever you decide). She stops, and stays there until you tell her to walk again.

I am probably not explaining this correctly. Then again, maybe this is one of the many reasons why I suck at all of this. Perhaps a truckload of salt is appropriate here.

[Maja]

But I agree with the bulk of what you are saying.
Maja

[Maja]

On the last video, at 5'28" or so I manage to get the situation where Bonnie is close to the sheep and I am far away, and she brings to me the ewes with the lambs (the rest just runs tome as soon as bonnie gets up). However, this situation is very difficult to achieve, because if I leave, the sheep follow me. In this situation, Bonnie is on balance, then the sheep then I. But I was wondering, maybe I can put Bonnie between the sheep and me, walk away and then she would go on balance, and bring them to me. I like her bringing the sheep to me because the then truly works the sheep. I am a bit afraid to send her on "outruns" when I am away from the sheep for fear she'd scatter them, but maybe I should do that too now? In the movie with the 10 month old May and Denise, it is easy for Denise to walk away from the sheep and thus create repeatedly a genuine situation for the dog to bring the sheep to her. With the sheep I have, I have to manufacture these situations.

Maja

[jdarling]

If the sheep won't stay where you want them, you can set out some yummy grain that hopefully will keep their attention. (That, sometimes, is more trouble than it's worth if you have a dog that doesn't have a lot of power and has trouble lifting heavy sheep, but that's a conversation for a different day.) If you never give Bonnie the opportunity to be wrong and are always preventing something "bad" from happening, neither one of you will know how to fix it when it does go wrong. Let her be wrong, and correct her as soon as it happens. When you send her on the outrun, the second she starts cutting in, stop her and kick her out. Once she has a good understanding of the proper shape of an outrun, lengthening it happens pretty quickly. Bonnie doesn't look like she packs a whole lot of power, and seems pretty harmless to the sheep. Try it. Trust your dog.

How often do you take lessons? And what is your trainer's philosophy on preventing wrongs v. correcting them?

[Maja]

If there is no other way except the grain I will do it, but if blocking the sheep with Bonnie is not wrong I'd rather do that, because my husband will murder me for feeding them grain - Zoe can stand by the gate for hours on end bleating like some abused starved sheep beggin for oats. Drives him nuts .

(That, sometimes, is more trouble than it's worth if you have a dog that doesn't have a lot of power and has trouble lifting heavy sheep, but that's a conversation for a different day.)

Cameroonians are very light, but Bonnie so far had trouble with other sheep only once (they didn't' want to come out of the pen because the had been hassled by previous dogs and even the assisting dog had trouble taking them out).

If you never give Bonnie the opportunity to be wrong and are always preventing something "bad" from happening, neither one of you will know how to fix it when it does go wrong.

It's not as though she never does anything wrong , I have only recently got a reliable lie down on her. But I do understand what you mean. It is yet another balance in herding (stock work seems to me to be based on a multitude of dynamic balances between contrary oppositions) that I can't seem to be able to achieve.

How often do you take lessons?

Ay, there is the rub. Last time I had lessons 1-5 August (it was a clinic) , next time I will go Sept 15th and then Oct 12th. That's the best I can do now. At home our practice varies depending on various things like lambing pouring rain, and it's between 15-25 min. a day every day to 15-25 one a week.

Bonnie doesn't look like she packs a whole lot of power, and seems pretty harmless to the sheep.

She is . That's why she is now allowed to practice with pregnant ewes and little lambs. Earlier, she didn't have a good enough stop, but now I can lie her down even in the middle of havoc.

And what is your trainer's philosophy on preventing wrongs v. correcting them?

He is much more towards making sure the dogs succeeds. But of course simple answers are usually too simple. At the camp, there was a very nice dog that did everything that the handler told her to. And the instructor told the handler: she is doing everything for you, she must also do things for the sheep. That's from a guy that usually says "she is working only for the sheep, she must start working for you." So he is very much depending on what dog the handler is working with, and at what stage the dog is.

For Bonnie it seems very important to move forward, when she is doing easy things she becomes restless. When its' too difficult she becomes frustrated. Another balance.

Thank you for your input . I will try some things tomorrow and include all the mishaps in the next video .

Maja

[Maja]

So here is today's session with the good, the bad, and the ugly. I am quite happy with it because the ram was "in a mood" - one of the ewe being in season again, and herding with my older dog was nearly impossible. I don't handle her now anymore, but since my husband is away gallivanting in the US, I thought I'd work with her a little, but Kelly and the ram hand constant issues and it was not pleasant to work. So I was concerned about how Bonnie would do, but she is so - I don't know - unobtrusive, non-challenging you can hardly see anything out of the ordinary with the ram or the flock.

With much less correction Bonnie weaves a lot more, but some of it is justified by the way the flock tends to spread out. But there are very clear moments where she figures out how to get the job done without weaving. Also a couple of times I make mistakes either by setting her wrong for the outrun, or by placing myself wrong.

At the very end, when we walk away and I mean to end the session, she actually looked back with that look in her eye "Gee, boss we forgot about the sheep". And off she went. In those situations even a Mighty Holler does not stop her, so I usually don't try. She brought them nice and clean all pleased with herself "Here they are, boss!" So I let her take them out of the training area an partly towards the home and called her off the sheep again. This time successfully. I do it without the leash anymore.

And sorry for the wiggles of the camera in the beginning, later instead of me the fence post is the cameraman (camerapost?) and it is more steady

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=GaU_Z9pbRIc

Any input will be of course appreciated.

Maja

[jdarling]

Maja,

What is your ultimate goal with Bonnie?

Jodi

[Maja]

Maja,
What is your ultimate goal with Bonnie?
Jodi

To work sheep? Why?
Maja

[jdarling]

Was just curious. I am understanding from your posts that you live in a country where there isn't much trialing going on, so I was wondering what you're aiming at ... if it's the trial scene, just having a dog to help you around there, or ...?

[Maja]

My actual goal is to help Bonnie to beas close to her full potential as possible. But I don't know how good she can be. She is only 10 months, I am not a good handler, and I don't have an easy access to the trainer. But I love Bonnie to pieces. If you get a dog from very good working lines, you can set out from the start some kind of goal, I suppose. But I just want to take it easy and see where we get together.

The Polish KC is the only one that organizes trials in Poland. Competitions used to be quite a vibrant area of activity, although there were not many people involved. Now there are more people working their dogs, but the KC herding subcommittee is suffering form some paralysis and there were no competitions this year at all. But that does not stop people from trailing - they go to the Czech Republic or Slovakia, since the Czech people as usual are years ahead of us and much better organized. So a person with a working dog just has to go further.

The system for trailing now is that a dog has to pass a Herding Working Test, and form there they go to trials, class I, II, and III, which is the highest.

Here are fragments from a trial in Poland in 2008, class I - the lowest. There are Polish, Czech, and Austrian people there, and the judge is Austrian. The dogs are from different backgrounds ISDS, FCI and mix.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mb6wnpXTH9A

Maja

[Maja]

I forgot to add: only in class I trial is the handler allowed to walk with the dog, and there is no shedding. In class II shedding is added and the handler does not leave the post, the outrun is longer too of course.
Maja

[Maja]

To give you the scale of dog herding in Poland:
There are at present 22 dogs eligible to work in trials. There of them are already retired, so there are 19 dogs in all of Poland that can potentially participate. In reality the number is much smaller. The number is doubled since the introduction of the HWT, which is easier to pass than the previous trial qualification test.
Maja

[jdarling]

So on the link you sent a couple of posts ago for the trial there in Poland, who sanctions a trial like that? And just to give us an idea ... how many entries would be at a trial like that? Is there a website that shows what the eligibility requirements are for dogs to work at trials? Is there a list somewhere of the dogs that are eligible? In your opinion, why is there such a low number of dogs that re eligible? Is it because the requirements are too hard? A low number of dogs overall? Population? Too expensive to own property and livestock? By the way, how much land do you own?

[Maja]

So on the link you sent a couple of posts ago for the trial there in Poland, who sanctions a trial like that?

The Polish Kennel Club. The judge was Marion Fuchs. If a judge is not FCI, but ISDS (though some judges in Europe have dual registration as a judge) then there has to be an FCI judge present as well.

And just to give us an idea ... how many entries would be at a trial like that?

As I said earlier the entrants were from Poland, Czech Republic and Austria. For class I - 12 entrants. For class II - 4 entrants. There were no Class III entrants.

Is there a website that shows what the eligibility requirements are for dogs to work at trials?

In order to participate in a trial the dog has to pass the Herding Working Test:
http://www.fci.be/reglements.aspx

Is there a list somewhere of the dogs that are eligible?

Yes, there is one here:
http://www.border.wo...art.php?art=224
However, Besi Miveko, Aris s Cesalki, and Frankie Akumulator are retired.

In your opinion, why is there such a low number of dogs that re eligible? Is it because the requirements are too hard? A low number of dogs overall? Population? Too expensive to own property and livestock?

To begin with, Poland used to have lots of sheep, but as a result of some economic collapses here and there in the seventies, the sheep industry is almost nonexistent. The presence of border collies in Poland is not something with a long history. I think the breed appeared in Poland in the 90ties. The first dog that started trialling was Aris z Cesalky in 2003. Of course he trialled in the Czech republic, not in Poland. The first Polish competition was in 2004. We bought our fist BC because we had sheep, but I think we were one of very few people who did it in this order then. Now, if someone wants to do herding as a sport, well, it's a an expensive sport.

I don't think the exam is difficult. But most border collies came into Poland as sort of urban dogs. It is slowly changing though, and more and more people import working lines dogs and more people mate border collies that work. There is more and more tendency, I think, to consider that a well-bred border collie should be a working border collie, and that those dogs will show in areas unrelated to herding will show the most promise. I remember I was once once approached by people who wanted to make sure their puppy will be from working parents, because they wanted "the smart border collie". On the other hand the working border collies are often considered to be much more difficult and require a much more experienced handler. So not many BC are used for stock handling as their primary purpose in life (as opposite to sheep being used to be handled by dogs as their primary purpose of existence).

The HWT, I think is not difficult considering the requirements that are for class I trial. It's a good introductory test, with the exception that it contains elements of cross-drive which do not appear until class II.

So considering the conditions for raising sheep, the number and type of BCs present in Poland, I think there are quite a few dogs with a working status. This is so, because some people just want to get the HWT and do not intend to go any further, because they want this for their show achievements. On the other hand there a few rising stars with dogs bought from working lines, so I think at the HWT the competition will be easier, but at the trial level it will be tougher. Also I must mention here the issue of handlers - the most experienced handler in Poland has been doing it for about 11 years only.

By the way, how much land do you own?

Only 10 acres, and it's in three pieces.

Maja