Jump to content


Photo

Bonnie and Sheep


  • Please log in to reply
226 replies to this topic

#101 Maja

Maja

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,433 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Poland
  • Interests:farming, translation, linguistics, writing, stock work

Posted 15 June 2010 - 10:41 AM

So here is a movie from our herding today. there is no original sound since there was lots of noise from Bonnie's brother that was much closer to the mike than were were. However, I hardly say anything at all here to Bonnie. At the end I show how I tried to do distance for circling, but I did it the way I understood the descriptions here so i am sure I am doing something wrong as you will see how Bonnie cuts in. i happened that she goes in one direction mostly, but we practiced in both directions. The one in the vid is her non-preferred.

I am sorry it is 4 min long, if you want to skip to the end that's fine. I edited the circling in slo-mo so that you can see all the things i do wrong.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PPk_fi2SVu8
maja

#102 ItsADogsLyfe

ItsADogsLyfe

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 408 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:East Tennessee
  • Interests:working my dogs

Posted 15 June 2010 - 05:24 PM

I think Bonnie is cutting in and gripping/splitting because she is frustrated. You aren't letting her work. I also think maybe its too much pressure for such a young dog and she is losing enthusiasm. You may not be using words, but you are definitely saying a lot with that stick and most of it is yelling. Just my opinion and its not worth much.
Joan "There's no normal life, there's just life" Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday
Seth, Meg, Mike, Reign & Crue

http://itsadogslyfe.blogspot.com/

#103 juliepoudrier

juliepoudrier

    Poseur extraordinaire and Borg Queen!

  • Registered Users
  • 14,709 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 15 June 2010 - 07:24 PM

I have to agree with Joan. In the first part of the video I can't see what the point of the exercise is, beyond teaching her that she should stop and lie there no matter what the sheep are doing. That's the part where you'll destroy her enthusiasm for work. It would be better to encourage some pace instead of making her lie down and stay there endlessly while you move around with the sheep.

As for the circling, you are putting *way too much pressure* on her. She is doing exactly what YOU are encouraging her to do when you get between her and the sheep and block her with your body, and that's zipping around you and slicing into the sheep. Instead of getting in her face when you try to send her around, try stepping AWAY from her--in the opposite direction of the way you want her to go. If she's a typical border collie she will kick out once the pressure is OFF and a lot of the slicing and grabbing will stop. Everything she's doing wrong there is in direct response to what you're doing to her.

XXXXXX(sheep)

<-- (Bonnie) (You)--> (Picture these angles not straight out to the side, but rather at a 45-degree angle or similar to the sheep, here and below)

Alternatively:

XXXXXX(sheep)


(You)-->

<--(Bonnie)

It may seem counterintuitive, but it's the *release* of pressure that will allow her to circle properly. The whole point of Derek Scrimgeour's "dangeroous ground" method is to NOT put pressure directly on the dog but rather to focus on an area in space so that the dog will sense that focus and yield to it. It doesn't mean you have to be scary to the dog; on the contrary, it means that you shouldn't be pressuring the DOG at all.

All that looming over her and whacking the stick at her is creating everything you see going wrong here. If it were me, I would do as I've outlined above, and if she dives in anyway, then she'd get a voice correction ("Aaaht!"), assuming she understands what a voice correction is, and leave the whacking stick and the looming human out of the picture completely.

J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

~Vincent van Gogh



mydogs_small2.jpg

Julie Poudrier
Oxford, NC
Willow, Farleigh, Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Twist (the troll), Katty Rat, Little Miss Larky Malarky, Phoebe (the rabid possum), Pipit (aka Goober), Kestrel (aka Messy Kessie), and Birdie!
Willow's Rest, Tunis sheep and mule sheep



Visit me on Facebook at Poudrier and Crowder, Set Out Specialists (P&C, SOS)


#104 Maja

Maja

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,433 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Poland
  • Interests:farming, translation, linguistics, writing, stock work

Posted 16 June 2010 - 01:19 AM

I agree with you. Last week, I was very happy with her work, since she started keeping distance while wearing with little instruction/correction from me.

I really did not try to force her to lie down all the time, I just meant to tell her to keep off when she (1) would start speeding up (2) got too close to the sheep. However, regardless of pressure, she rarely just stops, she either goes (fast or slow it doesn't matter) and when she stops she lies down, she hardly ever stops without lying down. Anyhow, I guess I messed up this time.

Thank you for your suggestions.
Maja

#105 Maja

Maja

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,433 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Poland
  • Interests:farming, translation, linguistics, writing, stock work

Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:35 PM

Here is a movie from today, with the original sound.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tWkgQfLTZRU
If you don't like the way Bonnie and I work in this movie then I guess I will have to go back to growing tomatoes and leek.

Julie,
I did again in slo-mo the part I am trying to do, I hope it somewhat resembles what you described for me. The thing that was odd form me was the 45 degrees, but I tried it, and I hope I didn't get the directions wrong. I used the voice instead to the stick as you suggested, although in the movie I am not saying much, since Bonnie is not pushing or rushing the sheep (they walk with their heads past me almost always unlike other sheep i have worked with).

The call-off without a leash at the end of the movie was successful, she when to the gate, lay down and then left the training area when I told her.

Maja

#106 Maja

Maja

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,433 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Poland
  • Interests:farming, translation, linguistics, writing, stock work

Posted 17 June 2010 - 01:08 PM

I also wanted to add:
1) Doing herding only once a week was a very bad idea. I herded now three days in a row, and it is much nicer that way.
2) As you can see Bonnie lies down by herself. I don't tell her to, I don't put pressure on her, I don't even look at her.
Maja

#107 kelpiegirl

kelpiegirl

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4,368 posts

Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:25 PM

In the video, I don't see the dog working sheep. I see a dog well off when you are walking with the sheep, just about out of contact, and when she does get up, she zips, or slices in tightly to them and then you correct, and lay her down. She is not learning to work the sheep. You need to allow the dog to work the sheep, and only correct if she comes in too close. You should not do so much straight walking. Keep it interesting- do some figure eights, correcting her if she comes it too hard, and then, just keep moving. That is the only way she will learn how to work sheep properly. There are myriad videos on youtube that you can watch to see what I am talking about.

I also wanted to add:
1) Doing herding only once a week was a very bad idea. I herded now three days in a row, and it is much nicer that way.
2) As you can see Bonnie lies down by herself. I don't tell her to, I don't put pressure on her, I don't even look at her.
Maja


Never wrestle with pigs, you only get dirty, and they like it.


http://kelpiematrix.blogspot.com/

#108 muttlycrew

muttlycrew

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 179 posts
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:31 PM

I must say that I don't really see a dog getting to working either. It just looks like she lays down (off balance it appears?) and then you walk a distance away while the sheep follow you and Bonnie just watches. Then she gets up and comes in very fast and then she promptly lies down (again, off balance?) and the whole thing starts again. This all is just my untrained eye's perspective. :rolleyes:

Thanks for sharing your progress.
Katy

#109 Smalahundur

Smalahundur

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,106 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Iceland

Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:38 PM

As a total newbie I wouldn´t dare to comment on how you work, just following the advice here with a lot of interest as I am myself starting two dogs (that wasnt the plan, I thought one would suffice...).
I was just wondering, how did you get those sheep so docile, did you buy them allready dogged?

#110 Maja

Maja

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,433 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Poland
  • Interests:farming, translation, linguistics, writing, stock work

Posted 17 June 2010 - 11:52 PM

In the last video I do not tell Bonnie what to do when wearing. The original sound is there, and I do not correct her by voice or the stick or anything, or make her stay or make her get up. She does it on her own. If balance is understood as the point of controlling the sheep I don't think she is lying down off balance, it's a relatively small circular area and both dogs behave differently inside the training area - they tend to stay closer to the center.

When it come to what we are actually doing please take into account that the camera takes in only about 1/4 of the training area, and you can see only what we do there, I have done figure eight.

I am sure you are all correct, and I am doing a mighty lousy job of herding, since there seems to be nothing I do right for you, I don't think I will continue here or I will have to start a Prozac therapy or something.

Smalahundur,
These sheep are crazy :rolleyes: . They are very fast and very flighty, they don't walk like other sheep. They were dog broke by Bonnie's mother mostly. They are behaving in the practice area, but in the open they are very difficult.

Best wishes and thank you for your efforts to help me,
maja

#111 kelpiegirl

kelpiegirl

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4,368 posts

Posted 18 June 2010 - 07:06 AM

I saw that you did not tell her to lay down, which is good, but the point I was trying to make is that laying down, other than for a very short time, isn't really something you want when teaching Bonnie to work. She needs to be fetching the sheep to you, and you need to change directions a lot, so she gets comfortable working. Your job is to allow her to work correctly, so, that means she is on her feet, allowed to go around (not circle) the sheep, and keep the sheep to you. There aren't a lot of rules for such a young dog, other than don't come in too close, and don't zip/slice. When Bonnie lies down on her own, bring the sheep by her, and remind her to stay out if she appears to plan to dive in. Try and have fun with her, within the rules, so she gets keener, on the work, and not the slicing.

In the last video I do not tell Bonnie what to do when wearing. The original sound is there, and I do not correct her by voice or the stick or anything, or make her stay or make her get up. She does it on her own. If balance is understood as the point of controlling the sheep I don't think she is lying down off balance, it's a relatively small circular area and both dogs behave differently inside the training area - they tend to stay closer to the center.

When it come to what we are actually doing please take into account that the camera takes in only about 1/4 of the training area, and you can see only what we do there, I have done figure eight.

I am sure you are all correct, and I am doing a mighty lousy job of herding, since there seems to be nothing I do right for you, I don't think I will continue here or I will have to start a Prozac therapy or something.

Smalahundur,
These sheep are crazy :rolleyes: . They are very fast and very flighty, they don't walk like other sheep. They were dog broke by Bonnie's mother mostly. They are behaving in the practice area, but in the open they are very difficult.

Best wishes and thank you for your efforts to help me,
maja


Never wrestle with pigs, you only get dirty, and they like it.


http://kelpiematrix.blogspot.com/

#112 juliepoudrier

juliepoudrier

    Poseur extraordinaire and Borg Queen!

  • Registered Users
  • 14,709 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 18 June 2010 - 07:20 AM

Maja,
I just watched the video, and should probably watch it again, but here are some of my observations:

1. On several occasions (0:56, 1:09, 3:44) Bonnie is showing very nice pace behind the sheep. I would do what I could to encourage this. I like the fact that she's walking up, but not pushing into them so hard as to run them over you and not weaving back and forth behind the sheep.

2. If she's actually lying herself down most of the time, she may be doing so in response to the fact that the sheep are light/flighty, so she puts herself where she feels she is in control and the just stops. I would encourage her to stay on her feet. (If she's lying herself down all the time like that she could get to the point where she is difficult to get up when you need her too; that is, she will become what we call a clappy dog. I have one of those, and constantly having to tell her to get up is a bit annoying.)

3. So the picture you are seeking is one in which Bonnie stays on her feet, walking at a nice pace behind the sheep as in 1. above. When she lies down, I would "shush" her ("shhhhh!") to encourage her to get up, followed by a "time" or "steady" command if she comes on too fast so she can learn to rate herself without having to lie down. (This is not always easy to do, and involves a fine balance between encouraging her forward and asking her to pace herself. I'm sorry I can't give a better explanation than that, but it's sort of intuitive and it starts with her getting up already in a nice pace and nice frame of mind, as opposed to jumping up quickly and then rating herself only when you ask her to.) The end result you're looking for is a dog who isn't lying herself down, but is instead moving steadily to control the sheep as you move around the field, and perhaps stopping on her feet if needed.

4. It looked to me like she sliced just one flank (toward the end of the video), so that is a great improvement. It was hard for me to see clearly, but it looked like you stepped to the side away from the direction you wanted her to go, and on two or three occasions (2:38, 3:14--I hope I got those times correct), she gives you a nice round flank around the sheep. Don't get hung up on the angle--the key is to step away from her (in the opposite direction of the direction you want her to go) to release any pressure on her. Moving to the side opposite where you want her to go changes the balance point for her (moving it closer to her), which has the effect of making it feel right for her to kick out rather than slice. (I hope I'm making sense with that.) Anyway, it looked to me like her flanks were much improved over what I saw in the previous video, so you're on the right track!

If I can get someone to tape for me, I will try to illustrate some of what I'm talking about here, but it will probably be a few days before I can make that happen.

(Oh, another thing you might want to consider is this: If you have any sort of chores or practical work Bonnie can help you do, try doing them with her. Sometimes just giving the dog an actual job to do can help them to understand what you want more quickly. For example, a dog will understand the concept of driving if you ask it to help you push the sheep away from food instead of just randomly driving sheep around a field with no real purpose or destination in mind. The down side to doing practical work with a youngster is of course that they can also make a mess of things, so you have to have the time available, as well the patience, to fix wrecks as needed. That said, choose your practical work carefully--my clappy dog *loves* to hold sheep off feeders, but really that job just encourages her to lie down and "protect" a feeder; that is, it encourages the clappiness, and so is not something I would normally choose to do with her.)

J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

~Vincent van Gogh



mydogs_small2.jpg

Julie Poudrier
Oxford, NC
Willow, Farleigh, Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Twist (the troll), Katty Rat, Little Miss Larky Malarky, Phoebe (the rabid possum), Pipit (aka Goober), Kestrel (aka Messy Kessie), and Birdie!
Willow's Rest, Tunis sheep and mule sheep



Visit me on Facebook at Poudrier and Crowder, Set Out Specialists (P&C, SOS)


#113 bcnewe2

bcnewe2

    If you stumble make it part of the dance!

  • Registered Users
  • 3,877 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Union, MO
  • Interests:Stockdogs, Sheep

Posted 18 June 2010 - 08:13 AM

Maja
I am not going to comment on the dog training. I think Juile is doing a great job trying to help.
But I wanted to add that learning to train a stockdog takes a very long time. Maybe the comments here have been rough (although Julie has been nothing but gracious) but that's becuase it's here, not in person and it's hard to convey feelings over the internet.

All of us that work with stockdogs are on a never ending journey to keep learning and expanding what we can do to help our dogs.
Really the comments are meant to help you, it doesn't really teach us anything if all you hear is great job. But it does certainly help to hear it sometimes. No one wants to hear things that are always feeling negitive but remember no one is trying to bash you or your dog, just trying to help you understand what you can do to further yourself and your dog in training.

When I first started working dogs and was going to lots of clinics, I would go hoping to hear what a great job myself or the dog was doing. But quickly learned that I didn't learn anything if that was the case. What I really needed to be doing was hoping the dog would do the things at the clinic that we needed to correct or work on so the clinician could help or teach me what to do next or instead of what I was doing. Only then could we move forward.

The internet is not exactly the place for intense learning when it comes to this art. It's such a hard thing to understand even in real life, you just can't expect to "get it" all when it's only written word. If that were the case, we'd all be reading books and walking into an Open trial kicking butt. That just doesn't happen. Or at least not for me.

Remember no one is trying to make you feel bad or stupid. they are just pointing out stuff that you might not know already.

Good luck and keep working on it. In about 10 years+/- you might find youself in the same postion as the people trying to help you here. What you learn here will help keep you kind when you type your advise!

Kristen
 

The world is a magical place...
Full of people waiting to be offended by something!

 

 

 

 


#114 juliepoudrier

juliepoudrier

    Poseur extraordinaire and Borg Queen!

  • Registered Users
  • 14,709 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 18 June 2010 - 09:20 AM

I must say that I don't really see a dog getting to working either. It just looks like she lays down (off balance it appears?) and then you walk a distance away while the sheep follow you and Bonnie just watches. Then she gets up and comes in very fast and then she promptly lies down (again, off balance?) and the whole thing starts again. This all is just my untrained eye's perspective. :rolleyes:

Thanks for sharing your progress.

Katy,
I suspect the reason Bonnie is lying down "off balance" (will explain the quotes in a minute) is because she is putting herself where she thinks it's necessary in order to control the sheep. Maja has said her sheep are light, and often a dog will want to control the heads. If you watch the videos again, you will see that she is actually placing herself where she can control the lead sheep (by catching her eye).

I didn't see what you and Julie W. apparently saw in the most recent video. I saw times when Bonnie got up thoughtfully and then showed good pace behind the sheep. The times when she's zipping are when Maja turns suddenly, which in effect puts Bonnie completely out of position to control the sheep (in her mind), so her response is to hurry around to where she feels she is in control. If Maja can work to prevent Bonnie from lying down so much, some of that zipping around will stop on its own.

As for "off balance," many new handlers make the mistake of thinking that on balance *always* means that the dog is at 12 o'clock in relation to the handler being at 6 o'clock. I suspect that this comes about because when we start dogs (and handlers) we start with a circle and dog broke sheep that stay with the human and so *usually* balance is on the opposite side of the sheep from the human. But balance is really where the dog needs to be to control the sheep (take them in the direction the handler wants them to go) effectively. So, for example, in my pasture, if I have the dog drive the sheep down the fenceline along the road, the proper place for the dog is *not* directly behind the sheep pushing them forward along the fence, as one might surmise. If a dog were to do that, the sheep would either immediately or gradually bend to their left back toward the direction of the barn/round pen, which is where their buddies are. So to be on balance a dog that is driving sheep along my fenceline toward the back of the pasture needs to be on the left side of the sheep, about halfway up the group so that it can control the lead sheep. If the dog moves too far forward, it will either turn the lead sheep or allow the sheep at the back to stop moving. If the dog falls too far behind, the sheep will start to bend back toward the barn, etc.

As another example, I had a student drive sheep in a figure 8 around two cones using one of my open trial dogs. The cones were positioned so that when the sheep passed through their center (the center of the 8) they were either heading directly toward the draw or directly away from it. She kept getting these very big loops, nearly losing the sheep each time the turn was toward the barn/round pen, because in her mind, the dog needed to flank around to a point *behind* the sheep in order to complete the turn around the cone that would put them in the direction of the barn. When she did that, then the sheep gathered a head of steam heading toward the draw and she then had to flank the dog hard and fast back the other way to catch them. In this case, putting the dog behind the sheep as the completed the center part of the figure 8 was not putting the dog on balance (even though one might think that behind the sheep is the position of balance). I showed her that as the dog made the turn to push the sheep through the cones in the direction away from the draw, she really needed to flank the dog as far as the cone itself before the sheep would naturally turn back in the other direction. The dog was on balance when it was directly to the *side* of the sheep (next to the cone), and the dog was in a position to quickly turn the sheep back once they started for the draw, allowing the handler to make a nice, tight figure 8 around the cones.

I don't want to get into a long discussion of on balance vs. off balance, but I just wanted to point out that IMO on balance is where the dog needs to be to maintain control of the sheep and that Bonnie is on balance when she's in a position to control the sheep. Where the problem arises is Bonnie's apparent tendency to clap. Since Maja is not encouraging her to get up and keep moving, Bonnie claps on her position as long as she possibly can, moving only when it becomes clear to her that she might lose control of her sheep. Seeing what's going on in that light might help you to understand better what Bonnie is really doing (or at least to me appears to be doing). FWIW, I consider an off balance flank a flank that either requires to dog to flank toward the handler or off the pressure.

ETA: As Kristen pointed out, it's difficult to provide good instruction over the Internet. I would also note that it's difficult to determine if the person doing the helping is experienced enough to really be of help (i.e., to really know what they are talking about). So when you come to a forum such as this one, you have to keep those things in mind when people respond to your questions. Maja, I give you credit for putting it all out there via video and asking for help. It's not easy to put yourself up for criticism like that, and I hope that I have been able to help you a bit.

J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

~Vincent van Gogh



mydogs_small2.jpg

Julie Poudrier
Oxford, NC
Willow, Farleigh, Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Twist (the troll), Katty Rat, Little Miss Larky Malarky, Phoebe (the rabid possum), Pipit (aka Goober), Kestrel (aka Messy Kessie), and Birdie!
Willow's Rest, Tunis sheep and mule sheep



Visit me on Facebook at Poudrier and Crowder, Set Out Specialists (P&C, SOS)


#115 Maja

Maja

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,433 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Poland
  • Interests:farming, translation, linguistics, writing, stock work

Posted 18 June 2010 - 11:48 AM

bcnewe2,

I agree with you that juliepoudrier has been tremendously helpful, giving very useful and very kindly worded advice, and I know most people mean well, and I got lots of good advice here. I am a novice at sheep handling, but I have been giving instruction including teacher training in another area for 20 years, so I do know about bad and good instruction. And I do know that most people mean well, but the emotional side of it is another matter. I spend my whole life learning new things, and I certainly do not expect to be patted on the back all the time, but part of learning is knowing what one is doing correctly, what one should retain. Learning only about the things that are wrong doubles the time of learning because a person tends to abandon those good things not to mention losing motivation. And of course I appreciate your efforts to make me feel better - it worked :rolleyes: .

juliepoudrier
Thank you for all your comments, and all the hard work you have put into them. They seem very clear to me, and I will read them again, and also I will print everything out before the next herding so that I get everything right. When it comes to balance, it's a thing I had to learn early because of my crazy sheep - the only way I could bring them back to the barn without them rushing like maniacs was with Kelly at 5'oclock. I spent hours trying to put her at 12:00 until one shepherd set me straight.

I don't think there will be any problem getting Bonnie up. I did not encourage her to get up since after my previous blunder I was trying to help her find her place with the sheep on her own. She would have gotten up easily with a tiny bit of encouragement from me. So I will try to get her settle to a pace next time. I also would like to point out what I see as an area of pressure for Bonnie - the sheep tend to go past me, they stay around me but their heads are past my body, they are not under pressure, it's just the way they are and I think that's part of the problem with the pace. In the one session I accidentally did not record, the sheep by some whim of theirs kept a space before me with me facing them, and then Bonnie was behind the sheep and keeping a distance on her own.

I agree entirely with making sensible tasks for Bonnie, it is also something that I prefer doing with a dog. However, this area of herding is very difficult, and I wanted to get her to practice inside the fence, so that they can't dash off somewhere. It's not my dogs that are no good - I have had very good dogs work on my sheep and they had a really hard time with them. So I am a little hesitant to let her do anything outside the training area for fear that she will grow pressure sensitive and afraid the sheep are going to get away from her any moment. Time is not a problem now, since I am on vacation till the end of September and I can give most of my time to the farm and all therein :D.

Thank you for all the time you have put into helping me. I had a pretty clear idea how I wanted to train Bonnie, and I was pretty consistent since she was born just about. I got a dog that is crazy about working sheep and also crazy about me, and then I started flip-flopping, but I think it was a lesson learned before it's too late, so your help is particularly valuable.

Maja

#116 muttlycrew

muttlycrew

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 179 posts
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 18 June 2010 - 12:23 PM

Katy,
I suspect the reason Bonnie is lying down "off balance" (will explain the quotes in a minute) is because she is putting herself where she thinks it's necessary in order to control the sheep. Maja has said her sheep are light, and often a dog will want to control the heads. If you watch the videos again, you will see that she is actually placing herself where she can control the lead sheep (by catching her eye).

I didn't see what you and Julie W. apparently saw in the most recent video.



Thank you, Julie, for explaining more clearly about the balance. As I stated in my response, my eye is very untrained and that is just what it looked like to me. :rolleyes:
Katy

#117 kelpiegirl

kelpiegirl

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4,368 posts

Posted 18 June 2010 - 12:55 PM

I'm no expert, that's for sure. I don't have the time to go into what I was trying to convey, so I am pleased Julie Poudrier has. It's very hard to give and get advice from internet sources, that's for sure. Good luck with your dog.
Never wrestle with pigs, you only get dirty, and they like it.


http://kelpiematrix.blogspot.com/

#118 Maja

Maja

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,433 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Poland
  • Interests:farming, translation, linguistics, writing, stock work

Posted 19 June 2010 - 03:04 AM

This is about the sheep.
Here is short movie not about training as such, although it illustrates a difficulty I have in beginning the session . So it is for your information so that you have a fuller picture of what the sheep are like, because it is not apparent in the movies, but it has an effect on the dog.

It shows a little how flighty the sheep are; they can't stand still, and that makes it difficult for Bonnie to stay calm. Please keep in mind that the sheep in this vid are actually 'behaving' because they are in an securely enclosed area, the security of which had been throughly tested by them. If this was in an open area the first movement you see they would be off like a shot. I used to be frustrated that my other dog could not do a calm fetch on them. Kelly would always run to the back of the sheep and as soon as she lifted instead of lying down as I was screaming at her to do, she would run to the front (6:00 o clock) usually just in time to stop them from dashing past me and into the next county. Well, it appears it is the only way to do a lift on these sheep, since Kelly can do a lift on other sheep just fine (although she is edgy about it), and I have not seen another dog do a normal lift on them. So when we get to actual outruns I will pack Bonnie up into our CRV and go 100 miles to do it on normal sheep.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=6uBN5qYirlI

Maja

#119 kelpiegirl

kelpiegirl

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4,368 posts

Posted 19 June 2010 - 01:57 PM

It would better to not use inappropriate sheep with such a young dog, than do so and cause lots of problems/tension down the road. See if the person who is giving lessons will sell you a few dogged sheep. I have sheep like you have- due to the pasture which was over grown. I won't work my young dog in that situation.
Never wrestle with pigs, you only get dirty, and they like it.


http://kelpiematrix.blogspot.com/

#120 Maja

Maja

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 1,433 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Poland
  • Interests:farming, translation, linguistics, writing, stock work

Posted 20 June 2010 - 01:18 AM

The sheep are good enough for what we are doing now in the enclosed area; I just wanted to show their character so that perhaps later you can understand better why the dog is doing what she is doing, when their character is not apparent to the viewer but is to the dog :rolleyes: . Bonnie will practice on different sheep too, but these are our sheep and I won't change it. On our farm the dogs are for the sheep not the other way around, though of course I wish we could keep the breed that follows people at a lazy trot and keep a yard away from my knees :D but it is not financially feasible.
Maja


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright: All posts and images on this site are protected by copyright, and may not be reproduced or distributed in any way without permission. Banner photo courtesy of Denise Wall, ©2009 CDWall. For further information, contact info@bordercollie.org.