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#1 BClover92

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 09:09 PM

Hey all!!

I was on here for awhile but was to busy to really get on and do anything.

I am currently on the hunt for a female border collie puppy.

Every single breeder I find has some major issues with it (the last I looked at had lines from Richard Swaffords puppy mill...YUCK).

A red (or blue tri) merle female is what I really want...however just a good dog with a good temp comes over color right now.

I am hoping to have one by june/july. However, if a litter is good enough to wait for I will.

I would consider a rescue too. So any ideas??

Puppy must be female is all! Will be doing agility, OB, rally, frisbee, dock dog, therapy, possibly herding and anything else we can get into! This puppy will NOT be bored. I have experience with BC's too. I work as a dog groomer, take training classes, have lots of BC friends and what not.

My trainer is a big BC person also and so any issues I may have she can help :rolleyes: However, I don't expect any! I have worked through A LOT with my current BC.

Thanks for any suggestions!!

#2 njnovice

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 09:21 PM

Hey all!!

I was on here for awhile but was to busy to really get on and do anything.

I am currently on the hunt for a female border collie puppy.

Every single breeder I find has some major issues with it (the last I looked at had lines from Richard Swaffords puppy mill...YUCK).

A red (or blue tri) merle female is what I really want...however just a good dog with a good temp comes over color right now.

I am hoping to have one by june/july. However, if a litter is good enough to wait for I will.

I would consider a rescue too. So any ideas??

Puppy must be female is all! Will be doing agility, OB, rally, frisbee, dock dog, therapy, possibly herding and anything else we can get into! This puppy will NOT be bored. I have experience with BC's too. I work as a dog groomer, take training classes, have lots of BC friends and what not.

My trainer is a big BC person also and so any issues I may have she can help :rolleyes: However, I don't expect any! I have worked through A LOT with my current BC.

Thanks for any suggestions!!


Check out Mid-Atlantic Border Collie rescue. I got Mick as a pup through an independent rescue type situation. He's a great dog.
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#3 workindogs

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 09:46 AM

You're not likely to find a good breeder with color specifications of red (blue tri) merle.....I'm glad you're open to other colors. Breeders offering a variety of colors are a red flag for breeding for the wrong reasons.....some may even tout "working lines" in their dogs pedigrees. I really recommend that you take a serious look into rescue.

Elizabeth
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#4 workindogs

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 09:48 AM

What is a good breeder in your mind? What would make a litter "good enough" to wait for? Just curious...."good" is a pretty unspecific term. You might get more input if you are more specific.

Elizabeth
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#5 PSmitty

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 09:52 AM

Although I have nothing against someone wanting to buy a puppy from a good breeder, I'll second the rescue suggestion. There are so many great dogs in rescue, and with all the activities you want to do, if you end up with one from a foster home, you will have a good idea already, if they're suited for it.

NEBCR: http://nebcr.org/Ava...er_Collies.html

Glen Highland Farm: http://glenhighlandf...com/ghfdogs.htm (also be sure to check their courtesy listings)
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#6 Alchemist

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 10:12 AM

You're not likely to find a good breeder with color specifications of red (blue tri) merle.....I'm glad you're open to other colors. Breeders offering a variety of colors are a red flag for breeding for the wrong reasons.....some may even tout "working lines" in their dogs pedigrees. I really recommend that you take a serious look into rescue.


^^^ What Workindogs said. If you bring "color" into it, breeders of working dogs almost certainly won't sell to you. I will argue that a working-bred dog is what you should be looking for even if you want a Border collie as a companion dog or for agility, obedience, what have you. The people who will sell to you if you start off with color specifications will be people who are breeding for the wrong reason.

If you do have your heart set on getting a puppy, I strongly recommend that you visit this site: http://www.bordercol...uyersguide.html . There have also been some recent threads on the BC Boards that you might benefit from reading very carefully. This recent one, in particular http://www.bordercol...showtopic=28200 may be educational. There's a lot of discussion of "sports bred" vs "working bred" vs "working lines". The distinctions may seem subtle, but in my opinion, they're critically important. You will also find some more specific recommendations on how to start looking.

All of my Border collies have been working bred. I personally would never acquire a dog registered with AKC (or dual registered AKC/ABCA). Any puppy is, however, in many respects a crap shoot. If you adopt an older dog from rescue you'll end up with much more of a known entity.

Good luck!

#7 juliepoudrier

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 10:54 AM

Elizabeth said pretty much what I was going to say. If you limit yourself to breeders of red or blue tri merles, you are severely limiting yourself and are unlikely to find a breeder who would meet most of our definitions of what a good breeder is.

I also second Alchemist's suggestion to read some past threads, and like Elizabeth would be curious to know what you really want in a dog, color aside. Also, when you say your trainer is "a big BC person" I have to ask what your trainer does? Stockwork? Agility? Something else? If you want to do the same things your trainer is doing, then s/he could be a resource in looking for a breeder, with the caveat that you read the thread posted by Alchemist and familiarize yourself with the differences between working lines and working bred and so on. That thread also contained the names of some good breeders of working dogs. They would be one place to start in your search for a pup, rescue being the other.

J.

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#8 G. Festerling

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 11:00 AM

Quite a few years ago I saw a little, quite unassuming, not very impressive little female work at a local trial.
Before this dog was done running I knew I wanted a pup. Watching her work was a dream! The same handler than also worked a male that I was rather impressed with.
Almost a year later, after quite a few calls, emails, ok, lots of pestering...., I finally got the call I had hoped for. "Which one do you want? (only two females left), "Large or small?" (yup, that was my choice via email). Frankly, I mattered little to me what the pup looked like or anything else I could visually see. The reputation and ability of the breeder/handler that was so apparent in the little female as well as the male, made me certain that I would love either pup. And I did. Nothing beats seeing the parents work.


BUT having said this....if you have a trainer, who is a big BC person, who you will be going to for help...why are you not getting her to help you? After all, she is sure to know of good litters coming up, knows and could recommend you as an owner and would probably have a pretty good insight in what you would mesh with well?
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#9 BClover92

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 03:56 PM

Thank you all....

I have talked to both my trainers about a litter. One suggested a litter to me which I am following but won't know if they have one available till they evaluate the pups. My trainer knows BC's very well. She did't know of anyone with litters right now (or coming up soon). My other trainer who has Sibe's did though. It was an agility friend of hers.

I know people say don't pick based on color... and I really don't want to. There is things way more important to me than that. However, I want my dream border collie. I settled for less than what I wanted last time around and want exactly what I want in a puppy now. Would I settle for another color if the puppy really hit me and said "thats the one". Sure! It is not the top of my list but it is part of my "ideal dog" to me. It is a part that could change very easy for the right pup though.

My trainer does Agility, OB, and some herding among some other random activity's.

I am looking at rescues... I have to have a puppy though. I would love to take an older dog but my current dog does not take to older dogs very well. I am sure he COULD adjust but a puppy just fits much better. I also wan't to "start fresh" with the pup.

I understand that I sounded a little stupid and such in my first post... but believe me. I am NOT stupid or blind to BC's. I just wanted more opinions on good breeders. I have one BC and have done hours and hours and hours of research on BC's. I have taken my current BC from a crazy reactive aggressive dog that could NEVER even walk into an agility class or around other dogs to competing and behaving better than most dogs. I know exactly what I am getting in to and honestly...they can't get much worse than my current BC.

My dream dog/breeder is this - The parents will be working dogs preferably doing both herding and agility...the more things the better. They will be health tested and have good passing tests (OFA good or excellent, CEA/CH clear, CERF, etc). They will be good stable dogs who can work, meet new people/dogs/animals and not have any issues.

The puppy will be like the parents and be an outgoing "social" dog. But know when its time to work. It will also be able to relax in the house.

Thank you again for your help.

#10 Laurae

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 04:18 PM

The best help you find here may be to read this thread in its entirety.

Cheers,
Laura
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#11 workindogs

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 05:00 PM

Just a couple of comments about border collie colors.....the vast majority of working bred border collies (border collies bred for stock work) are either black and white or tri colored (black, white and tan). Rarely, red is produced from a legitimately working bred litter (bred for stock work). There are a few high level working red dogs but not very many (not because reds can't work, but because red doesn't naturally occur very often and unless you are intentionally breeding for it, it pops up infrequently).

Even less rare, a blue pup or two might be accidentally produced.

I have yet to ever see or hear of a merle puppy that wasn't deliberately bred for....ie the parents were selected to produce merle. Merle doesn't ever seem to occur as a genetic "accident" or "random" occurrence.

I might be wrong....but I don't think I am.

Furthermore, you are limiting yourself to a breeding "preferably" out of dogs that are doing both agility and "herding". Most working dogs (working stock) who are of a high caliber (and therefore "good") are not going to be found doing agility.....not because they couldn't, but because the work, time and effort entailed in proving a high level of work (on livestock) is a full time/life long endeavor.

So, your dream dog is a very rare thing......something that isn't likely to occur unless you go a breeder who is selecting for color and not proving his/her dogs at work to a very high level. This, by my (and many others here) definition, is the mark of a "bad breeder".

Good border collie breeding should be from parents who they themselves are very good working dogs with the intention of producing more border collies with the potential to be good working dogs. Working means working livestock...not sports. Most good working breeders also do basic health exams....hips and eyes. Pups from good working (livestock) breeding can go on to do a variety of things.....agility, working livestock, SAR or be very good active pets. But, unless those pups are themselves trained to work livestock to a high level, those pups should not bred.

Please keep in mind that the temperament/personality of a puppy is unknown until it's older. You have no way of knowing what that adorable pup will turn out to be in terms of personality/temperament. If this is critical, then an older dog or older puppy is more of a "sure thing."

I checked some of the links to rescue sites posted here....there are a number of very young dogs....some red....even one merle. I think you should commit yourself to searching rescue for your dream dog.

I hope you find you dream pup, but I hope you find it in rescue or from a quality working border collie breeder.....and in a different color.

Elizabeth
with Ross, Soot, Craig and Hattie
Steadfast Stockdogs
Oregon, USA


#12 muttlycrew

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 05:58 PM

I will also chime in and say rescue. I had my heart set on a young dog (less than 6 months). I really wanted something flashy, unique, special. Anything other than B/W. Different or mismatched markings. I didn't want a smooth coat but I knew I wanted prick ears. All my past BCs have been black/white smooth coats with hound ears. I wanted something....different. Oh yeah, it HAD to be female.

My oldest female is a bitch, plain and simple. She's not a fan of other dogs, yet she is around 3+ at any given time.

After 2 years of fostering and having many dogs come and go, I finally found "the one" who fit perfectly into my pack of two other females.
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1.5 years old, Housetrained, smart as a whip, ball/frisbee crazy, learns new tricks in under a few reps, is pretty decent on stock, and has taken to agility (and now dock diving!) like a duck to water, social (can we say golden retriever stuck in a BC body???). And yes, she's another smooth coat (only this time, a tri!!) :D I never would've thought I'd end up with another smoothie -- but this girlie is a total dream. :D Hey, at least I got my prick ears!! :rolleyes:

I guess what I'm saying is, keep your mind open and the right one, whatever that may mean, will find you. :D
Katy

#13 Pat W.

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 09:28 AM

I second what everyone else is saying - look at rescue. As someone who has "been there, done that, got the Tshirt" looking for exactly what I wanted in another dog. What I wanted to was to clone my first border collie - agility dog, a rough coat, clasically marked, male that would jump 26. I was so blinkered by what I wanted that I am sure I passed up sever very nice dogs in rescue. I joined the aussie L and found a "breeder" who was "downsizing" and ended up with a very handsome blue merle aussie, with a Juvie Cataract that I was never told about and found when I had his eyes Cerf'd myself, he also has food allergies and at age 11 is completely blind due to caracts. Although he loved agility, had plenty of drive and was athletic we never jelled as a team. Listen to what is said here -stay away from sport breeders, do your research if you decide to go with a breeder there are several reputable ones here on the East coast,

Not only am I a foster home for MABCR but I am also a 3x adopter from them. I currently am running a wonderful little Tri color that came in at 12 weeks old. My daughter is starting a handsome red merle - I think I know where he came from but my lips are sealed - and we are retiring our first agiltiy dog from MABCR this December a classically marked female
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#14 PSmitty

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 10:25 AM

1.5 years old, Housetrained, smart as a whip, ball/frisbee crazy, learns new tricks in under a few reps, is pretty decent on stock, and has taken to agility (and now dock diving!) like a duck to water, social (can we say golden retriever stuck in a BC body???). And yes, she's another smooth coat (only this time, a tri!!) :D I never would've thought I'd end up with another smoothie -- but this girlie is a total dream. :D Hey, at least I got my prick ears!! :rolleyes:

I guess what I'm saying is, keep your mind open and the right one, whatever that may mean, will find you. :D


Exactly! And other than the age (I got Alex at 3 months), and the "pretty decent on stock" part, you're describing my rescue BC to a tee! :D

To the OP, I understand wanting a puppy or young dog, I thought the same thing, both about starting fresh, and my older dog being more accepting of a puppy. Thing is, it's all a crap shoot. You can start with a great puppy and end up with a not so great agility/frisbee or whatever dog. Your current dog may be more accepting of a puppy, or maybe not. We've added two border collies to my household since we had Jack. Jack has issues, and likes very few other dogs. He accepted both a 3 month old puppy and a young adolescent (almost a year old) equally well. And as for starting fresh, my 3 month old rescue has turned out to be a great agility and flyball dog. And the one we got at closer to a year old, has just started flyball training, and I feel he will do well at whatever we decide to do with him, including agility, maybe stockwork. You never know, so it's good to keep an open mind.

And if you decide to go the breeder route, please find a working breeder. Best of luck, whatever you decide.
Paula
Lilly, Jack, Alex & Will

#15 Alchemist

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 12:46 PM

On getting a puppy because you want a good "fit" with an older dog: let me share a cautionary tale that just appeared on Patricia McConnell's blog. She's the author of "The Other End of the Leash", among many other books, and is highly regarded as an expert in dog behavior.

She has a 4-year-old Border collie, Will, who has always been a bit reactive with other dogs. She's worked very hard with him and he will now play with (some) other dogs, but as she says, he's never going to be a dog park sort of dog.

Her older Border collie, Lassie, passed away this winter. Will has been missing his companion. This weekend, after careful puppy temperament testing (all detailed on her blog: http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/) to maximize the probability of finding a pup with a personality that would mesh well with Will, she brought home a new pup.

It doesn't sound as if things are working out. Even at nine weeks of age, and even after only 12 hours in a new home, it's displaying inappropriate behavior that makes it seem likely that sparks would fly between the two within a few months. With a very heavy heart, she sounds as if she's returning the pup to the breeder.

Pups are, to a large degree, unknown entities. Their temperaments can change over time. Yes, you can probably identify (and avoid) a very shy pup through temperament testing, but there are a lot of additional nuances beyond just that. I don't think I'll ever be as expert in reading dogs as Dr. McConnell (who has conducted hundreds of temperament tests). If I had a dog who "didn't take to [some] dogs well" and was thinking of adding a second dog, I'd probably decide that adding a rescue (on a trial basis at first if at all possible) would be a safer bet.

#16 Amelia

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 01:10 PM

They will be health tested and have good passing tests (OFA good or excellent, CEA/CH clear, CERF, etc). They will be good stable dogs who can work, meet new people/dogs/animals and not have any issues.

The puppy will be like the parents and be an outgoing "social" dog. But know when its time to work. It will also be able to relax in the house.


I second, wholeheartedly, everything that Workin' dogs said so well. But, I want to caution you further. Achieving your "dream dog," aside from good breeding and health tests, will be entirely dependent on YOUR ability to raise and train one properly.

If the dog turns out to be less than dreamy, look in the mirror.

#17 OurBoys

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 02:45 PM

I will also chime in and say rescue. I had my heart set on a young dog (less than 6 months). I really wanted something flashy, unique, special. Anything other than B/W. Different or mismatched markings. I didn't want a smooth coat but I knew I wanted prick ears. All my past BCs have been black/white smooth coats with hound ears. I wanted something....different. Oh yeah, it HAD to be female.

1.5 years old, Housetrained, smart as a whip, ball/frisbee crazy, learns new tricks in under a few reps, is pretty decent on stock, and has taken to agility (and now dock diving!) like a duck to water, social (can we say golden retriever stuck in a BC body???). And yes, she's another smooth coat (only this time, a tri!!) :D I never would've thought I'd end up with another smoothie -- but this girlie is a total dream. :D Hey, at least I got my prick ears!! :rolleyes:

I guess what I'm saying is, keep your mind open and the right one, whatever that may mean, will find you. :D

Yep. When I started getting 3rd dog fever, I told myself I wanted a R&W, split face, rough coat male and ended up with this. :D At least I got my rough coat!

Posted Image

BClover92, a lot of people get a puppy thinking they can mold it into the kind of dog they want. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. If you find your puppy, what are you going to do with it if it doesn't like doing one of the activities you want to do? If you go thru rescue and get a dog that's a little older, their foster home can tell you what kind of energy level the dog has and what kind of drive they have. Plus, you won't have to wait as long for their growth plates to close if/when you start agility. Just something to think about.
Brenda

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#18 Ms.DaisyDuke

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 03:22 PM

I am looking at rescues... I have to have a puppy though. I would love to take an older dog but my current dog does not take to older dogs very well. I am sure he COULD adjust but a puppy just fits much better. I also wan't to "start fresh" with the pup.


Everyone has given you some excellent advice about what a good breeder really is, so I'm not going to get into it. But, I would like to touch on this a little bit. I'm just wondering what kind of issues your other dog has with adults and what work you've done with him regarding these issues? And how do you know for sure a puppy will be any different? Not to mention, it could end very badly should your dog decided to take after a pup. Have you had him around puppies frequently and you know for sure he's ok with them? If you haven't done any work with him to address his issues, there is a good chance he might not be.

#19 Dalesred

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 10:36 AM

Aside from all the other excellent advice, I would urge you to be open-minded.
I thought I wanted a bitch, smaller in size, traditional-looking. I ended up with the blue merle Welsh gentleman on the left, with his David Bowie eyes, goofy grin and ridiuclous ears. Rhiw is a gem of a dog.
He was part of a farm-bred litter out of working parents, on sale at a working sheepdog auction in Bala, North Wales - they certainly had NOT bred him for colour. His parents and both his sisters are working full time. He got the cushy number with me :rolleyes:
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