sometimes I feel like giving up...

[Liz P]

Saw a post on a list the other day. Woman owns a 1.5 year old bitch and wants advice on good books about breeding, whelping pups, etc. I mention that she will not find an owner with a quality stud willing to breed to her bitch if she doesn't work her on sheep. Owner replies that she does work, agility, and that she feels she is worth breeding based on her agility performance. And please don't try to convince her that agility is not work, because it is (according to her and her friends).

 

I don't have the energy to try to educate her. I can see now why so many people just ignore the sport/show breeding crowd and go about their business preserving their line of working dogs.

[Izzysdad]

Ummm agility isn't work you're right. Hopefully she won't find anyone willing to bring a mate for the bitch. People are idiots and that's a cold hard fact. She'll be stuck with a litter and no proper home to send them to, so the rescue's will get even more full.

 

Don't give up though

 

Tim

[Debbie Meier]

I don't have the energy to try to educate her. I can see now why so many people just ignore the sport/show breeding crowd and go about their business preserving their line of working dogs.

 

 

Yup...

[Sue R]

I sympathize with you, Liz. It's an uphill battle and most of current-day society is against your argument - heaven knows, even people here are known to argue for breeding for sports (or whatever) because "that's the future of the Border Collie". That will be the only future of the Border Collie if people like that have their way. As you have noted, it will simply be those who breed for working, for their own use, that will preserve lines in the breed that can and will work.

 

Most everybody I know outside working/trialling circles feels like your client does - no matter what the breed. Sadly, a few within the working/trialling circles seem to feel the same way.

 

One breeder told me that she had no issue with dual registration and people who bought her pups breeding for whatever they chose because, as long as there were people breeding for the work, there would be working dogs. I thought that was simply a justification for selling who-knows-how-many pups to anybody who came along, with any use or plans they had for the future of the pups she sold (of course, she was against anything inhumane). So, if you bought a pup and liked the pet dog it became, you could come back and use one of her studs for breeding more pets - of course, they'd still be labelled "working bred". And the same for performance or conformation or unproven but "working bred".

 

You can try and educate but, if someone won't listen, you'd probably do yourself a favor to try and concentrate on something else or somewhere else where you can have an influence for good. Best wishes!

[BustopherJones]

"Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." (St. Francis of Assisi)

 

You can't fix stupid...

[juliepoudrier]

Hopefully she won't find anyone willing to bring a mate for the bitch. People are idiots and that's a cold hard fact. Tim

Unfortunately she probably won't have the least bit of trouble finding a stud. Someone else with a dog doing well in agility will likely be more than happy to offer the service. And if the dog is winning in agility, there will be buyers for the pups too. As others have said here before, this is the split I'd really like to see happen, with the sports dogs going their own way.

 

J.

[scomona]

Please don't give up!

 

I am a first time dog owner/BC owner and I knew nothing about anything BC when we got Shiloh. I came here and have learned so much stuff and 100% agree that BC's should bred based on their working ability with livestock.

 

My favorite things about Shiloh are his loyalty, dedication to a task, intelligence, problem solving ability and physical ability. All of those aspects come from being a working dog even though his breeder was just a silly person who loved their female dog...etc. But luckily he still has those traits.

 

Anyways, I wouldn't have understood this without the help of this board and all of you. We have had over 5 people ask to breed him and because I am educated- I say no. He may show some talent in stock work, but they don't even care about that- they think he is sweet and fast! I also find it annoying that having a dog makes people consider being a breeder- can't we just encourage and support farmers and professional with purpose and experience, why does everyone want to be everything (different topic)? Also- why cant the agility folk just get a well bred working (stock)dog if they want a BC, I don't think anyone would really be against that, right? It's not what they do with the dog it is just breeding to preserve their amazing natural abilities with livestock.

 

So- my point is that I am one of those silly, uneducated, misguided people that just didn't know better... but now I do and it is because people spoke up! It may not work all of the time, but someone could over hear....or at least you planted the seed and if it is repeated by others it may catch on!

[Sue R]

You know, Simona hit it quite on the head - many of us, myself included, have gone from a position of ignorance to a certain amount of understanding, and it's because people like you and others on this board cared enough to try and educate us.

 

So, my thanks to all who have endeavored to teach here and elsewhere, just what it is that makes the Border Collie what it is, why we should care, and how we should act to help maintain and support the breed.

[jdarling]

Liz,

 

Here's a new spin on all of it that I just heard about. The latest and greatest "responsible" agility breeders will spay and neuter breeding stock if they have what is called "Early Takeoff Syndrome." (There are some things that even I can't make up.)

 

Here's a quote on that page by Linda Mecklenberg:

 

"She was one of the first dogs that convinced me that ETS is NOT a training issue. This dog also has relatives that have what is believed to be ETS. After becoming aware of ETS, the owner/breeder of this dog spayed and neutered all of her related dogs in an effort to prevent recurrence, despite the potential for producing top performance prospects."

 

I wonder when Optigen will make a blood test for this. Some of those sheepdog big hats might have to start spaying their breeding stock or risk being labeled irresponsible breeders by those "in the know." We can't have working stockdogs with Early Takeoff Syndrome. That would be ... just horrible.

 

Jodi

[Liz P]

[Pearse]

It's not stupid if you are seriously into agility to want to breed better agility dogs.

 

And, it's not any more unreasonable to assume that by breeding one good agility dog to another good agility dog one will get good agility dogs that it is to assume that by breeding one good stockdog to another good stockdog that one will get good stockdogs.

 

While we stockdog people may believe that it is detrimental to the Border Collie breed to breed dogs for anything but stock work, not everyone will feel that way. That doesn't make them stupid. It doesn't even make them wrong.

 

The most that we can say is that breeding dogs for agility/flyball/the breed ring will not produce good stock dogs. Although, I think we can go further and say that breeding for the show ring does have a detrimental effect on the health of the dogs because there is ample evidence to that effect.

 

I'm with Julie. Time for the Sport Collie and the Barbie Collie to go their own way and leave the Border Collie to the stockdog people.

 

Pearse

[Gloria Atwater]

............ Time for the Sport Collie and the Barbie Collie to go their own way and leave the Border Collie to the stockdog people.

 

Pearse

 

That's it, right there. It's not unreasonable for people to breed for whateverthehell traits they want, but if they want to do so, and in the course of that pursuit overlook, omit and sometimes deliberately breed OUT the very traits that make a border collie a border collie ... it's time shut the gate between our working dogs and those other black-and-white dogs.

 

One wishes. I still can't get over the first time I actually saw Show bcs attempting to go around sheep at a "fun day" event.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

[Loretta]

What exactly do you mean by "shutting the door"? Not selling to sport people at all? Only selling on spay/neuter contracts?

 

Not trying to be smart, just asking a question...

[Izzysdad]

What exactly do you mean by "shutting the door"? Not selling to sport people at all? Only selling on spay/neuter contracts?

 

Not trying to be smart, just asking a question...

 

 

Let them go call their dogs by some other breed name, make up their own. A border collie was meant to work the hills with his shepherd day in day out, not run around a course going over and through obstacles, or looking a certain way, having a certain height, etc.

 

They'll ruin the breed just like almost every other working breed has been ruined over the years.

 

Picture one day when there won't be one BC left able to work sheep because the blood lines have been ruined.

 

Tim

[jdarling]

Pearse,

 

Yes, I agree the breed should split. However, the Sporter Collie and Barbie Collie people would have to adopt a new name for their breeds, and I think we have a better chance at world peace.

 

Just sayin'...

 

Jodi

[Loretta]

Gotcha...

 

Just asking as my dogs are my stockdogs and also run agility...

 

I am grateful that I had someone that was willing to sell me a working bred Border Collie. I couldn't imagine working any other kind of dog and if I ever had to sell my sheep or never stepped foot onto a trial field/farm situation again, I would still not want to train any other kind of dog.

 

I would rather get a spayed/neutered working bred dog than an intact sport bred dog anyday

 

Thanks for the explaination,

 

Loretta

[Root Beer]

Picture one day when there won't be one BC left able to work sheep because the blood lines have been ruined.

 

I don't really understand this. Stock dog handlers don't go to sport breeders for their dogs. And stock dog breeders aren't breeding to supply people with sport dogs, although, of course, some working bred dogs do go to sport homes and some sport homes seek working bred dogs. But I didn't think sport homes were the bread and butter of working breeders.

 

Why would sport Border Collie breeders deplete working the Border Collie population to the point of extinction? Do any of you consider the existence of sport Border Collie breeders when you breed Border Collies for stock work?

 

I'm not a supporter of sport breeders. I simply don't understand the logic behind the idea that sport Border Collie breeders would somehow will somehow wipe out the existence of the working bred Border Collie population - even if there is not a formal split. And if it is going to take a split off on the part of those who are not breeding for stock work, I doubt that would ever happen.

[juliepoudrier]

Kristine,

It's been discussed before, but the issue is the size of the gene pool. If one type of dog, say sport collie, makes up a disproportionately large part of the border collie population, then their genetics become the de facto "standard." The more dogs that are bred away from working abilty, the smaller the actual working gene pool becomes.

 

Working breeders will sell to pet and sport homes, and as has been noted in these discussions before, although ideally pups would go into working homes, the number of working homes is limited, so some pups will go to non-working homes. If all those non-working homes are buying sport-bred and other-bred border collies, then those homes are not available to working-bred border collies. A vicious cycle.

 

When folks talk about closing the door, then a clear split, including name, will have occurred. Will it increase the number of working homes available? No. But it will make clear to people looking to buy a pup or dog that there are choices to be made, and hopefully some would choose a working-bred dog, which would provide a market for working breeders and thereby help maintain the working gene pool.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

Thanks, Julie, for taking the time to respond.

 

To understand this further, may I ask a hypothetical question. Suppose that for some imaginary reason nobody other than working homes purchased, or otherwise gave homes to working bred Border Collies. Let's say that a split has occurred and the sport bred Border Collie breeders are calling them mini-Labs now. Now everybody wants mini-Labs and nobody wants working bred Border Collies anymore except those who are actually using them for stockwork.

 

Is the effect on the working population still the same?

 

I know - the example is unrealistic. I know, that would never happen. Again, though, to understand the effect of sport bred Border Collies on the working Border Collie population, I am interested in the answer to that question.

 

Thanks!

[Smalahundur]

Kristine,

It's been discussed before, but the issue is the size of the gene pool.

 

J.

 

But the dogs who go off to some other breeding goal whatever that is, don´t belong to the "working dog gene pool" anymore, so how on earth can they have a detrimental effect on the dogs that stay in that pool?. They are like culls in that respect.

The only thing that can preserve the working dog gene pool is people working (in the stockwork sense of the word) dogs, and therefore keeping up demand for dogs with true work ability. The rest I think is politics and marketing (do the working dog breeders want keep the agility/sports/pet market mark to "get rid of" what otherwise would be culls?).

I gave you the analogy with the Icelandis horse in a similar discussion a while back that got pretty much misinterpreted.

 

Edit : to make make my point clearer; a working dog breeder sells a pup to an "agility" home, and gets trained for that sport. This pup will, no matter how potentially brilliant his genes might be for stockwork, get used for breeding in working lines because this ability will never come to light. That´s what I mean by not a part of the "working dog gene pool" anymore.

[Root Beer]

But the dogs who go off to some other breeding goal whatever that is, don´t belong to the "working dog gene pool" anymore, so how on earth can they have a detrimental effect on the dogs that stay in that pool?. They are like culls in that respect.

 

That's the conclusion that I come to, as well. The ones that are not actually used for stock work are like culls, for the purpose of breeding, regardless of what happens to them.

 

If Jane Smith purchased a working bred puppy and trained the dog to be a champion Agility dog, that dog would never be used as a breeding dog for stockwork, whether she chose to breed the dog for something else or not. So, how does that affect the gene pool?

 

To me it seems that the effect would be the same as if all working bred Border Collies that were not used for stock work were spayed or neutered. (Effect on population of working bred dogs, that is).

 

Note: The question is merely for discussion. I don't breed and have no future intentions of doing so. And I am not supporting sport breeding. I am simply trying to understand exactly how sport breeding might eventually lead to the extinction of the working bred Border Collie since people who do stock work, and breed stock dogs, will continue to purchase working bred dogs.

 

The question is asked only for the purpose of education.

[Maralynn]

Thanks, Julie, for taking the time to respond.

 

To understand this further, may I ask a hypothetical question. Suppose that for some imaginary reason nobody other than working homes purchased, or otherwise gave homes to working bred Border Collies. Let's say that a split has occurred and the sport bred Border Collie breeders are calling them mini-Labs now. Now everybody wants mini-Labs and nobody wants working bred Border Collies anymore except those who are actually using them for stockwork.

 

Is the effect on the working population still the same?

 

I know - the example is unrealistic. I know, that would never happen. Again, though, to understand the effect of sport bred Border Collies on the working Border Collie population, I am interested in the answer to that question.

 

Thanks!

 

Now that is a bit far out there

 

Honestly what I think what would eventually happen is the people wanting a dog strictly bred for something (like agility) would go to a breeder for that. Those who looked into it deeper or wanted a more versatile dog would go to a working breeder. When you start breeding specifically to avoid something like ETS, you're changing the breeding practices and creating a different type of dog. So everyone wanting a Border Collie will go get a Border Collie. Those who want a sport collie for a specific sport will get one of those. It will just make it a clearer choice for people. The example assumes that people will want sport bred collies. I think the opposite will be true. People interested in sports will get their sport collies, but other people will go for Border Collies, especially as you see more and more of a difference in the two.

 

I recently read a SAR training manual put together by a person who breeds/raises/trains Labradors for hunting, search and detection work. He listed Labradors, GSD/Malinois and Border Collies as his 3 top picks as breeds that could do disaster SAR work. He said if you're looking for a Lab pup, go to Field Trials. GSD/Mailinois? look at schutzhund trials. Border Collie? Start you search at USBCHA trials because there is where you're going to find the best example of stable, trainable, driven dogs.

[Smalahundur]

Note: The question is merely for discussion. I don't breed and have no future intentions of doing so. And I am not supporting sport breeding. I am simply trying to understand exactly how sport breeding might eventually lead to the extinction of the working bred Border Collie since people who do stock work, and breed stock dogs, will continue to purchase working bred dogs.

 

The question is asked only for the purpose of education.

 

Same here, I raised the point out of pure interest. No breeding(intentions) here either. I own one BC, I got her because I have sheep , so the BC´s ability to work stock is important to me .

[Liz P]

My family had Border Collies for work generations ago. Then they moved to suburbia and held down 9 to 5 jobs, but some kept Border Collies as pets. When I wanted a REAL dog (not a fluffy lap rat) my Mom bought me a Border Collie. She said it was the only breed out there that she would ever own. My first Border Collie was my soul mate and my partner in crime. He got me into sports (agility, obedience, flyball and dog sledding). Because I loved him so much I wanted another Border Collie, and then another.

 

One day I went to a sheepdog clinic. All of my dogs were bred for work, so they blew me away with their natural instinct on their very first time on sheep. It was exciting and beautiful and sparked a passion in me unlike any of the sports I had tried. I could see right away that THIS was what Border Collies were meant to do. The dogs knew it and came alive in a way that I had never imagined. Because my dogs were bred for work and had their natural instincts intact, I made the conversion to the dark side and pursued working stock instead of sports. Had my dogs been bred for show/sport and failed at their first attempt on sheep I would probably still be competing in sports, maybe even breeding sport collies.

 

I suppose the way I see it is that, if we can get people to buy a working bred dog and spark that same excitement in them, we gain more allies to preserve the breed. Without people who keep working Border Collies as a hobby our gene pool will shrink considerably and the breed might be in danger of dying out or becoming too inbred to be sustainable. (Read Denise Wall's bulls eye analogy to understand what I mean.)

 

Sorry for the ramble and poor grammar. I still feel the same thrill every time I work my dogs. That is the root of my passion for the breed and my reason for selfishly wanting to preserve Border Collies in their truest form.

[Root Beer]

Now that is a bit far out there

 

As it I said it was.

 

Honestly what I think what would eventually happen is the people wanting a dog strictly bred for something (like agility) would go to a breeder for that. Those who looked into it deeper or wanted a more versatile dog would go to a working breeder. When you start breeding specifically to avoid something like ETS, you're changing the breeding practices and creating a different type of dog. So everyone wanting a Border Collie will go get a Border Collie. Those who want a sport collie for a specific sport will get one of those. It will just make it a clearer choice for people. The example assumes that people will want sport bred collies. I think the opposite will be true. People interested in sports will get their sport collies, but other people will go for Border Collies, especially as you see more and more of a difference in the two.

 

That's not the question that I was asking, though.

 

I was asking exactly how the effect of people breeding Border Collies for sport on the gene pool of the working Border Collie is any different from the effect of all Border Collies that are not used for work being spayed and neutered would be on the gene pool of the working Border Collie.

 

In other words, why might the working Border Collie eventually become extinct due to sport breeding, but it would not if all Border Collies placed in pet and sport homes were spayed or neutered?

 

I'm not trying to be difficult. I honestly don't see the difference.

 

ETA: That is strictly the difference on the effect on the gene pool of the working Border Collie. NOT the effect on the Border Collies bred for sport, public perception, etc.