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Hypertrophic osteodystrophy


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#21 mjk05

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 09:26 PM

Definitely let us know if a TNS test (DNA) comes back positive. If so, he would be the first working dog I've ever heard of that is affected. Can you share his pedigree?

That'd be an error of omission, no? You meant to write "the first North American working dog"?

Dobbin, sorry to hear you're going through this. I hope it turns out to be HOD or cyclic neutropenia (which I believe is nasty but not necessarily fatal). Having lost two pups to TNS, my only advice would be to get him tested ASAP, and then make the call on euthanasia as soon as you feel it's right. You'll know.

#22 Journey

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 09:28 PM

The sire is Hollowshot Mill Reef and the dam is Hollowshot Tibbie. I have that information!


Positive? From the little research I was able to do Tibbie was born maybe around 98. I sure hope I'm wrong but that means she was 12 when your Jack was born......
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#23 Liz P

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:02 PM

You're right, I should rephrase and say the first working bred dog not from Aussie/NZ lines that I've heard of with TNS. The pup in questions appears to be show lines, so it is a real possibility he has it.

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#24 mjk05

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:22 PM

You're right, I should rephrase and say the first working bred dog not from Aussie/NZ lines that I've heard of with TNS. The pup in questions appears to be show lines, so it is a real possibility he has it.

Yep and even without him being from show lines, it would have to be high in the differential based on the history and reported bone marrow result. I'm a bit saddened by the fact that he had to have a bone marrow aspirate done at all, really.

#25 juliepoudrier

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 07:53 AM

I thought TNS pups don't survive very long? Is 18 months outside the norm? Or have a misunderstood the disease? ISTM that when we have these discussions the claim has been made that pups don't survive long and so TNS may be missed because of such early losses?

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#26 Journey

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 07:59 AM

In looking at all the info on the web the longest lived was 2 yr 8 mo.

I sure hope they're wrong wrt Jack but.....Dobbin I posted the link with TNS info and there are other links in it. It's a death sentence and I really hope your vets figure out what is wrong with Jack.
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#27 Dobbin

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:19 AM

Positive? From the little research I was able to do Tibbie was born maybe around 98. I sure hope I'm wrong but that means she was 12 when your Jack was born......


I think the Tibbie you have found is a great grandmother to Jack's mother Tibbie. That is what it looks like in the pedigree information we have.

#28 Journey

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:39 AM

I think the Tibbie you have found is a great grandmother to Jack's mother Tibbie. That is what it looks like in the pedigree information we have.


I could be wrong. Who is the sire & dam of HS Tibbie? Is her dam Nant Tibbie?
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#29 Dobbin

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:48 AM

I could be wrong. Who is the sire & dam of HS Tibbie? Is her dam Nant Tibbie?


HS Tibbie's sire is HS Spot and dam is HS Miss Tique

#30 Journey

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 09:48 AM

Is "Sportingfield Hollowshot Jen" in your info on Tibbie. All that I have found indicates AU/NZ breeding top and bottom mixed.

The most obvious question though is what about Jacks littermates? Does he have any? And how are they? Have you spoken with their owners?
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#31 mjk05

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 07:56 PM

I thought TNS pups don't survive very long? Is 18 months outside the norm? Or have a misunderstood the disease? ISTM that when we have these discussions the claim has been made that pups don't survive long and so TNS may be missed because of such early losses?

J.

I think my point in discussions here has been that there seems to be a lot of variability in presentations. So some affected pups might die in utero, some in early infancy (as my affected pups would have), some might die due to vaccine reactions before developing other signs, some are the classical sickly ferret-faced 8-12 week old pups, and some will survive until early adulthood.

Our specialist vets (with experience with other TNS cases) didn't think our older pup met the criteria for TNS, because his neutrophils weren't trapped, they did migrate to areas of infection (ie lungs). Possibly it depends on the timing of testing in the cyclic pattern of the disease?

Anyway, no, I haven't been saying previously that ALL affected pups die very early, just that presentations can vary significantly and not necessarily fit the "usual picture", and so some cases are likely to be overlooked completely or attributed to other causes.

#32 mjk05

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:14 PM

Is "Sportingfield Hollowshot Jen" in your info on Tibbie. All that I have found indicates AU/NZ breeding top and bottom mixed.

The most obvious question though is what about Jacks littermates? Does he have any? And how are they? Have you spoken with their owners?

Journey, if you check Anadune, you'll find Jack's pedigree. H. Mill Reef is there (with lots of Aust/NZ show lines) and while I can't see Hollowshot Tibbie (the old, ISDS Tibbie is Tibbie at Hollowshot), her mother H. Miss Tique is listed and she's half Aust show lines. So it's no mystery, there are known TNS carriers on both sides of the pedigree.

Dobbin may not have access to the details of Jack's littermates, so it's probably up to the breeder to contact them. If he were TNS affected, each pup in the litter would have had a 25% chance of being affected and a 75% chance of being unaffected, so it's entirely possible that they are all fine. I would be interested to hear if any of them had died though, and their apparent cause of death, if you ever hear, Dobbin.

Hope Jack is having an okay day today.

#33 Dobbin

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:51 PM

Anyway, no, I haven't been saying previously that ALL affected pups die very early, just that presentations can vary significantly and not necessarily fit the "usual picture", and so some cases are likely to be overlooked completely or attributed to other causes.


If we are dealing with TNS with Jack, it has definitely been overlooked. Many of the symptoms of HOD mimic those of TNS.

Right now Jack is back to 'normal.' This is the way it always is. He is sick with a fever and other symptoms for 3-5 days and then He is back to his border collie ways. He will probably get sick again in 3-5 weeks (even on antibiotics and steroids).

We will keep everyone posted when we find out more about Jack's condition and what the breeder finds out.

#34 Journey

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:59 PM

Right now Jack is back to 'normal.'


Good to hear :) Thanks!
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#35 mjk05

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 09:26 PM

If we are dealing with TNS with Jack, it has definitely been overlooked. Many of the symptoms of HOD mimic those of TNS.

Right now Jack is back to 'normal.' This is the way it always is. He is sick with a fever and other symptoms for 3-5 days and then He is back to his border collie ways. He will probably get sick again in 3-5 weeks (even on antibiotics and steroids).

We will keep everyone posted when we find out more about Jack's condition and what the breeder finds out.

Yeah, that's what we had with our TNS pups, although it started when they were tiny, presumed to be the unlucky runts who didn't get adequate colostrum for a novice mum. They also had a bad reaction to vaccinations (big lumps at the site). While they initially recovered completely, by the time they were 4monthish they hadn't recovered from the last issue before the new one struck, and were starting to look a bit worse for wear. It tended to be different things each time, so first it was 'gastro', with diarrhoea, then a respiratory infection, then a swollen joint and lameness, etc.

It was about 4 week cycles, from memory, and I was initially looking at cyclic neutropenia (gray collie syndrome) as a possible cause- it's usually shorter cycles, 10-12 days. There's a gene test for this in Collies, but I'm not sure if it is related to TNS.

I found this article interesting:
UK 'Grey Collie'
It was diagnosed as cyclic neutropenia in a farm-bred UK smooth coat border collie, but since she had three week cycles rather than the usual short GCS cycles, I wonder if it was TNS. She survived for almost 3 years.

#36 Dobbin

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 05:01 PM

With unbelievable sadly, Jack was put to sleep today. He was getting sicker and was not having the life a border collie should have. I will post any results we get about TNS.

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#37 OurBoys

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 05:17 PM

Oh my goodness, Dobbin. I am so sorry for your loss.

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#38 airbear

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 05:18 PM

He was a beautiful boy - what a face. Posted Image I am so sorry for your loss.
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#39 SS Cressa

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 05:53 PM

Sorry for your loss. Have you been in contact with your breeder? Sorry if I missed the post if it was posted.


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#40 The Good Shepherd

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 06:21 PM

Sorry - big hug
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