Musing about the start Options

[Smalahundur]

Hi, I have a young BC, named Táta, who is just over four months old. I got her because I´ve been running a small sheep operation the last couple of years (total 72 ewes and rams), and after attending a local clinic got convinced that a good herding dog could save me a lot of work( and irritation), also I think it´s a very interesting skill to learn.
At the moment we are working at the basic obedience stuf (you know,come, sit, stay, down etc) which is no problem (my wife and I do have experience with dog raising, first BC though). Also I´m studying the theory , read books, look at video´s and surf the web. This has at least given me a certain understanding of the theory of herding (yeah I´m expecting the praxis to laugh at me....)

Anyway, the plan is to start Táta on sheep somewhere after late may (that´s the end of our lambing time). she´ll be over eight months then (and if she doesn´t seem ready then , later).
I organized things so that I will have a group of yearlings that will be lambless, they should become "dog training" sheep. Probably will get a friend of mine who has working collies "prep" them for me.

I just had this idea that might be stupid or not to put before experienced trainers here; would it be smart to start a young unexperienced dog on bottle lams? We usually have one or two each year, and the neighbours would be more than happy to get rid of one or two of theirs. We keep them in a group and feed them with a "lamb bar" bucket., so they are not so human bonded as bottle fed would be.
So what do you people think, smart or silly? I myself am a bit weary of my own idea because I´ve never heard it mentioned before (and there might be a good reason for that, like for instance too stressfull on such young motherless lambs).

[stockdogranch]

For the very first few sessions on sheep, I like sheep that are people oriented--the ones who will stay with me. So bottle lambs might be ok for that. But you'll need to start changing up sheep to ones who act more like "real sheep" soon thereafter,
A

[juliepoudrier]

I guess my only real concern with bottle lambs raised the way you mention is that they are still *lambs* and so will behave as such, even if they are a bit more people-oriented than average but not so bad as hand-raised lambs. If you could include an older sheep to act as the leader for the group it would probably work okay, as the lambs would follow the leader sheep instead of behaving like lambs (silly, nonflocking, etc.). I want the first experiences a youngster has on sheep to be positive, which is why dog-broke sheep are so imporatant. If I were you, I'd get the person with the experienced dogs to go ahead and break the yearlings and the lambs as a group, and make sure there's a yearling or two in with the lambs when you start working them with Tata so that she has a better chance of success (because the older dog-broke sheep will provide "stability" and greater sanity to the lambs).

J.

[Sue R]

I'm not sure if it is in your plans, but I'd also suggest getting some quality training assistance. Over in UK, there are many wonderful handlers who also train outside dogs and their owners. Books and videos are great but nothing beats hands-on training with a qualified instructor.

I'd take Anna's and Julie's advice about the young stock, and wish you the very best!

[cgt]

I rarely have had to deal with the bottle-fed lambs, so,
you know, disclaim... but

I wouldn't use bottle lambs. They are barely even sheep.
They don't act right at all, and the dog will be getting a very
weird first impression which *might* flavor a lot of the
subsequent training. The dog needs to see/feel what effect
he/she has on the sheep from the very start, and I don't think
you will get that very well with the bottle creatures.

charlie

[bcnewe2]

Yes I don't deal with bottle lambs unless I have to. I think they are just horrid to work any dog on them. IMO they don't act like sheep. If I get stuck with a bottle lamb that I can't get rid of right away I keep them in with the rest of my lambs and only feed them through the fence. I don't let them nudge me, or touch me or the dogs if I can help it. They still turn into pushy sheep but at least they've been hanging with the rest so seem to sorta hang out with the rest of the flock.

Unless seasoned older lambs I don't work a new dog on lambs. The lambs don't konw how to act and neither does the green dog.
I do let lambs w/ewes be worked by greener dogs but even then I think it's a hassle as if the newish dog has a relapse and gets in to close for the momma's comfort, things can go wrong and I don't want a new pup getting scarred off sheep or learning that they have to man handle momma's and babies.

Finding help (like your friend who already works dogs) is your best bet. At least I'd want to get some of your sheep dog broke first!
Good luck!!

[Smalahundur]

Thanks for all the advice, my conclusion is it´s probably best to concentrate on getting a group of yearlings dog-broke and starting Táta on them.
@sueR, yes "quality training assistance" sounds great, but it would involve moving to the UK The only man I know about who gives instruction here does this only in the form of clinics (I attended one before I got my pup). Living here in the icelandic country side is practically impossible without a "do it yourself" attitude, which among other things led to me being my own farrier...But I´m not totally on my own, the mentioned friend has pretty good dogs, and the guy who bred his dogs though not being an instructor is very succesfull with his dogs, and willing to lend us both a hand.

[hsnrs]

When we had bottle babies it was hard for the dog to move them. THey were more like baby puppies and liked to ride in the golf cart. I think the lambs thought they were dogs too. Very stubborn and didn't necessarily stay with the person at all times.

[Sue R]

Thanks for all the advice, my conclusion is it´s probably best to concentrate on getting a group of yearlings dog-broke and starting Táta on them.
@sueR, yes "quality training assistance" sounds great, but it would involve moving to the UK The only man I know about who gives instruction here does this only in the form of clinics (I attended one before I got my pup). Living here in the icelandic country side is practically impossible without a "do it yourself" attitude, which among other things led to me being my own farrier...But I´m not totally on my own, the mentioned friend has pretty good dogs, and the guy who bred his dogs though not being an instructor is very succesfull with his dogs, and willing to lend us both a hand.

Oh, Iceland - I forgot! Understood! Maybe, if you get very lucky, you might be able to take a "sheepdog holiday" in UK. There are a number of top handler/trainers who offer that. And, of course, keep prepared to take those clinics if you can.

Very best wishes!

[Smalahundur]

Well, I stopped musing and started planning.
I visited my friends farm last week and he showed me how he works his two bc´s on a group of about 25 of his sheep he keeps outside. This is a group of older ewes, no "knee knockers" but pretty well dog trained. I can go there any time I like to start Táta, so right now I´m repeating the litany "not yet, too soon, wait a couple of months" in my head .
Well at least not before she´s got a nice solid "down".