Heeling with distractions, for the "all or nothing" pup Options

[Root Beer]

I look forward to the video.

Pam

Soon as they are ready, I'll make one.

I just stared working on it in the kitchen and I think it's going to work out well. They were extremely entertained by it.

I also played around a little with a front foot target from the last video pammyd posted. Definitely very interesting.

[Mariji]

I make videos of each of our training sessions from the start to the final product for my pups Breeder. I will post one if I can about my pups heeling training.
She was way more difficult than my older dog as she was so reinforced in the front she had to always be in front. After 2 lessons I have her heeling on the side, regarded it isn't perfect (she bunny hops in between steps) that's nothing was can't fix. All using her dinner (plain biscuits) you can use all the corrections and games in the world but you need something he wants to work for.

You'll find it just needs value before he will do it at training. You'll probably find that the behaviours you are doing at training and that he is doing successfully are the ones you work on more and reward more. Maybe you just didn't reward high enough for the heeling. So simple but usually is the root of all evil.

My pup when training has a default position which is a "stop" (drop and stay). So no matter what i teach if I give it too long she reverts to a lie down because it is so highly reinforced. If we are out and i ask her to "stop" she instantly drops no matter where she is and waits, simply because it is so highly reinforced. I don't teach my dogs sit because twits will keep asking my dogs to sit and not reward them and soon enough they don't have a sit in their vocabulary. Also it takes longer to get out of a down than a sit if we are by a road or something so it gives me more time to realise they are breaking a stay.

[shysheperdess]

Excellent sudjestions Journey!!! I use some of those very exercises with my dogs!!!

Everybody has there own style and methods that they are comfortable with, everybody starts somewhere!!! And a great amount can be learned from everybody's own experiences and what works for them with there dogs.

However, if someone is even remotely intersted in competing and is intersted in "competition style" heel work then they would be keen to listen or seek out info from people who have acutally obtained this level of work and actually set foot inside an obedience ring, rally doesn't count. I actually wish there was an "ask an expert" area for the different competitive dog sports in this forum.

I would strongly sudgest anyone looking to build a possible competition team with your dog seek out a knowledgable instructor who not only has been competing succesfully themselves but who has a knack for passing on there success to there students. ALSO, PICK AN INSTRUCTOR who uses methods you are comfortable with and that suits you and your dog!!! Different methods suit different dogs/people! I am FAR from the "jerk and heel" method and my dog does NOT respond to that kind of training! I have had many negative experiences witnessing people training that way but many people do not!

I also would STRONGLY sudjest you find an instructor who is used to working with border collies! Different breeds tend to have different needs in training! BC's are no different and in genderal respond well to motivational methods!


I feel your pain in terms of different instructors not allowing certaint things and when starting out I went through ALOT of facilities finding the right match! I eventually settled on private lessons with an amazingly succesful trainer with border collies, plus attended seminars and paid to just use ring time to work on my dog the way the trainer and I wanted.

Again, this is not directed in a negative way towards other people of this board and we can ALL learn something from eachother!!! I just worry about certain methods being sudjested here that have not been tested in a ring, and agility is much different than agility. I have no doubt that in practice and with cookies these dogs heel very well. Not sudjesting that the people on this board don't know how to train a dog to heel. But putting these methods to the test in a "high-stress" competitive environment where you cannot talk or give your dogs cookies might put a different spin on things. If it did work, GREAT! But if not I feel that the anyone who is acutally intersted in competition heeling is not getting advice that might help them.

[Ooky]

I don't teach my dogs sit because twits will keep asking my dogs to sit and not reward them and soon enough they don't have a sit in their vocabulary.

I find this statement confusing. I've only clicker trained the one dog, so admittedly I'm no expert. But after the initial clicker training period for such elementary commands as "sit" and "down", my dog never required any reward whatsoever for these commands, or a click either. When he was a young puppy, I trained at home and in class with the clicker, and rewarded often. But even early on, if someone else asked him to sit, and didn't have a treat or a clicker, he would anyway and I would provide the reward (or they would) by praising him. But after all this time, being asked to sit a thousand times with no reward (as I rarely, if ever praise for a sit anymore), he has not lost the skill. I thought that was the objective with clicker/reward based training? Eventually they don't need the reward every time or even at all?

Odin and I have worked on the brickwork for two nights now, 5 minutes each. I'm definitely not as fast or as skilled as the woman in that video, but he's putting his feet on the brick now and last night we got half a turn in too! He loves the game. The MOST hilarious part though, is that I keep putting my cat off or even out of the room for bothering us. After last night's training session, I found Dr. Benway standing in perfect position with HIS two front paws on the brick and *glaring* at me! I guess now I need to teach the cat to "get in" too!

ETF grammar

[Mariji]

I find this statement confusing.

Certain people were constantly telling Myla to sit for no reason and if she didn't, they didn't bother to make sure she did. They would ask her to sit and if she went "yeah right" and walked off because she knew she wouldn't get anything, they wouldn't follow through. She's too clever and soon generalized it to everyone and even me, if i asked her to sit she'd stuff around or not do it at all. My dogs will always do something if I ask them too with the emphasis on the "I". So when she wasn't being expected to follow through when somebody other than me asked her to sit, she generalized that too me and somewhat forgot how to sit. So i had to redo a sit, stand and drop. Now no-one that comes over is allowed to ask them to do anything as it ruins my training.

Yes with clicker you eventually don't need a reward but that doesn't mean they shouldn't still get one. I see this alot with new puppy class participants, they assume that since they did the class that their puppy is trained and they never have to do it again. You will find you reward him somehow, whether it be a "good dog" when you release him after a sit he gets to go back to what he was doing, or even a pat. Training is ongoing and I don't think it is ever finished. Sure a skill is taught and learnt, and once it is proofed your pretty much set, but a dog can lose that skill just as easily. Saying this it all depends on the dog, as my dogs don't work as well with other people. They show all the interest but don't understand the commands, they musn't be able to generalize to another person as the way that person says that command is different to the way I say it.

Anyway I no longer use a sit, I teach one but hardly use it. I saw in my puppy people constantly telling her to sit and I'd laugh because she doesn't know how, that way in her training stage they couldn't do the same that happened to my Myla. It's the same as start line stays. The handler puts a dog in a stay and walks out to the course to take their position. They turn and release the dog not realising that the dog moved a foot. Next time the dog shuffles forward slightly and soon the dog won't stay but move forward 5 metres. Because it's in a comp most people won't remove their dog from the comp and the dog is free to break a stay and move forward. They learn very quickly when they can get away with not listening. They are reinforcing themselves for not waiting and its the same for the sit. She is asked to sit but doesn't have to and buggers off to whatever she was doing, same when you don't release a dog. You tell it to lie down (which means don't move until I release you), you don't release the dog and forget, the dog gets up and walks off. Hence it has just learnt it doesn't have to wait for a release. Off course this happens over time but it is extremely common. I hope that makes sense.

[Root Beer]

I thought that was the objective with clicker/reward based training? Eventually they don't need the reward every time or even at all?

Correct. Ultimately, you want to build the value of the click/treat into the behavior itself. This is easier with some behaviors than others - depending on the dog.

In the situation that Mariji describes, I would probably have used that opportunity to teach the dog that sitting for me is WAY more reinforcing than sitting for other people! So, after the dog sat for someone else, but didn't get the reward, I would cue a sit and reward the heck out of it. (I'm not saying that Mariji's choice was wrong - just that I would have used it a it differently). I would repeat that a lot - every time someone else asked for a sit and did not reinforce. I expect that with repetition this would make the dog's sit much stronger when I cue it, while giving the dog the option of responding or not to the other person asking. After all, I want my dog to respond to my cues, not anyone else's.

Like Mariji, I see a lot of people abandon reinforcement way too soon. Reinforcement is like deposits in a bank. A dog with a long, strong reinforcement history has a much higher capacity to respond to cues correctly without reinforcement (in the long run) than a dog with a very short reinforcement history. I know that kind of seems backwards, but it actually does work out that way if the reinforcement history is solid.

Odin and I have worked on the brickwork for two nights now, 5 minutes each. I'm definitely not as fast or as skilled as the woman in that video, but he's putting his feet on the brick now and last night we got half a turn in too! He loves the game.

I started it with Dean, too. I want to use it to train a perfectly straight pivot in front of me in both directions.

He is also enjoying it. And it keeps him ramrod straight in front of me as we pivot. Very nice!!

[mum24dog]

In the situation that Mariji describes, I would probably have used that opportunity to teach the dog that sitting for me is WAY more reinforcing than sitting for other people!

I would retrain the sit to a different cue that noone else would be likely to use by accident.

Pam

[Mariji]

Correct. Ultimately, you want to build the value of the click/treat into the behavior itself. This is easier with some behaviors than others - depending on the dog.

In the situation that Mariji describes, I would probably have used that opportunity to teach the dog that sitting for me is WAY more reinforcing than sitting for other people! So, after the dog sat for someone else, but didn't get the reward, I would cue a sit and reward the heck out of it.

Like Mariji, I see a lot of people abandon reinforcement way too soon. Reinforcement is like deposits in a bank. A dog with a long, strong reinforcement history has a much higher capacity to respond to cues correctly without reinforcement (in the long run) than a dog with a very short reinforcement history. I know that kind of seems backwards, but it actually does work out that way if the reinforcement history is solid.
I started it with Dean, too. I want to use it to train a perfectly straight pivot in front of me in both directions.

He is also enjoying it. And it keeps him ramrod straight in front of me as we pivot. Very nice!!

Unfortunately I was not always around to correct the said person or reinforce her if she did do it correctly. (Was a roommate) We did reteach her sit and now it is better than it was before and since then she has not lost any of her cues. For a bit she was losing some of her tricks as people thought it was cute and would cue her over and over and over again. But we put a stop to that before we lost anything else.

You explained it perfectly. (I'm terrible at explaining things) Your dog will shwo you what you reinforce the most and what you don't. My default behaviour (what my dogs always resort too) is a down because it is soooo highly reinforced, they see it as a way to get heaps of treats so is always what they try first in shaping and always the one they listen to 100%, treat or no treat. But that doesn't mean they get a reward 2 out of 3 times I may ask them.

It is only fair if your dog does such a good job that you reward them. I'm pretty sure my dogs would go on strike if I never rewarded them again.

And Pam, yes we changed the sit cue to "down". Took me ages to come up with a different cue. That way I can cue it but no one else can unless I tell them.

[Root Beer]

It is only fair if your dog does such a good job that you reward them. I'm pretty sure my dogs would go on strike if I never rewarded them again.

Oh, my dogs will never have that problem! They get more than sufficient rewards.

I actually use a pattern in my training sessions that is recommended by Kay Laurence in one of her books.

All training sessions start out with a high rate of reinforcement. I usually start out with fluent behaviors and they are highly reinforced for them. Then we move into working on things that they are learning. There we still use a high rate of reinforcement. Then I work for a while on fluent things with less reinforcement. I will put the treats in a bowl off my person and work on backchaining to a jackpot, or segments of Freestyle routines that include behaviors that are solid, but need to be reliable in competition. Here we build duration of focus and behaviors. Then I end with the most fun behaviors for the dog, again using a high rate of reinforcement.

This sets up a template that I can use in competition. I always warm my dog up away from the ring, using a high rate of reinforcement. In the ring, no food, of course. By the time we compete, duration of focus is plenty long enough to complete the tasks that are required in the ring - unless I am using competition as a test of where our training is with a particular dog. After we leave the ring - jackpot and some fun behaviors with a high rate of reinforcement.

I don't do every single training session like that. And, obviously, with a dog who is new to training there are no fluent behaviors to play with yet. But more often than not, that is the structure that we use.

It serves two excellent purposes. The fluent behaviors are kept fresh and reinforced. And it builds the dog's duration of focus without rewards. Another win/win. I love it!

[Mariji]

All training sessions start out with a high rate of reinforcement. I usually start out with fluent behaviors and they are highly reinforced for them. Then we move into working on things that they are learning. There we still use a high rate of reinforcement. Then I work for a while on fluent things with less reinforcement. I will put the treats in a bowl off my person and work on backchaining to a jackpot, or segments of Freestyle routines that include behaviors that are solid, but need to be reliable in competition. Here we build duration of focus and behaviors. Then I end with the most fun behaviors for the dog, again using a high rate of reinforcement.

Fantastic! That's what I do. I am doing contacts at the moment with my pup. (Just on the ground) And we start out with some recalls, stops and fun stuff. Then we will work a few rounds on contacts and take a break by doing some circle work so she gets too run and so on. Echo loves to run so I break it up with exercises that involved running, as thinking about where your back feet are is a lot of work.! She figures it out when I jackpot her and it only takes a second to have her repeating what i just jackpotted.

As with our new rescue anything other than trying to claw her way up onto my shoulders is jackpotted. I will walk around with her and try get her to engage with me (she is EXTREMELY soft) and then go back to practice not jumping on me. In which I will just stand there and wait for her to finish trying to climb up me, the second her bum hits the ground she gets a huge handful of treats. She figured that out pretty quickly. She finished with tonnes of cuddles as she doesn't know how to play and is very, very clingy so cuddles are her favourite. If my dogs get something right that is hard I give them the rest of the bowl and we finish with a game.

That was one thing somebody never taught me how to do when I first started. They tell you to train at home but they never explain how. Sure each dog is different but there is a general outline, start with a game, finish with one etc. Its something I make sure to tell my students.

[Alchemist]

Duncan had his first "Control Unleashed" class tonight, and it went swimmingly. He had a blast, so I did as well. He whined a bit at first, seeing the other dogs in the class (total of four dogs tonight, plus the trainer's dog, with two more to join next time - a heckuva lot better than the 50-odd dogs at the last place!). But he calmed down very nicely, even doing a total "limp noodle" flop at one point. We worked on relaxing on the mat, massaging the dogs so that they forgot about all the things that were so exciting all around them. (She told us it wouldn't always be this "tree-huggy" a sort of thing). Then we worked on "shaping" a "go to your mat" (without commands). At first Duncan worried about trying to figure out what I wanted him to do - was he supposed to go inside the crate? "Sing?". I wasn't supposed to tell him "go to your bed" or give him any hand signals. But he very soon worked it out that if I was looking at the mat, he should go there and lie down. He also did very well at staying in the crate (without whining), even if the door was wide open and I'd picked up his leash, until I finally released him, at which point he hopped straight out and sat very nicely at attention in front of me. We also worked on hairpin turns on calling the dog's names when they were busy sniffing at something else, and discussed how to train them to "look at that".

I really like the trainer. She seems calm, totally unflappable, and her explanations are very clear. The other dogs have a lot in common with Duncan; they tend to get overexcited. The trainer paid Duncan a lot of compliments - told me that she'd expected a dog who was much more "over the top" from the descriptions I'd given her, and she noted several times how quickly he was picking up on things.

Next class isn't for two weeks, so we'll have plenty of time to practice the exercises we started on tonight.

In the meanwhile, I'm still hoping that the snow here will eventually melt. It's nigh-on impossible to walk along the sidewalks - most people haven't shoveled them wide enough for a dog and a human to walk side by side. Duncan is still happy to heel beautifully (without my asking him to) when I use the clicker (walking in the street), but only as long as there are no huge distractions (people shoveling snow - "dump it on me, please!!!"; other dogs "let me sniff you, please!"). I'm OK with that as I don't feel he's blowing me off if I haven't asked him to heel in the first place.

When life calms down (hopefully in another week or two), I'll start implementing some of the great suggestions some of you made.

[Root Beer]

Duncan had his first "Control Unleashed" class tonight, and it went swimmingly. He had a blast, so I did as well. He whined a bit at first, seeing the other dogs in the class (total of four dogs tonight, plus the trainer's dog, with two more to join next time - a heckuva lot better than the 50-odd dogs at the last place!). But he calmed down very nicely, even doing a total "limp noodle" flop at one point. We worked on relaxing on the mat, massaging the dogs so that they forgot about all the things that were so exciting all around them. (She told us it wouldn't always be this "tree-huggy" a sort of thing). Then we worked on "shaping" a "go to your mat" (without commands). At first Duncan worried about trying to figure out what I wanted him to do - was he supposed to go inside the crate? "Sing?". I wasn't supposed to tell him "go to your bed" or give him any hand signals. But he very soon worked it out that if I was looking at the mat, he should go there and lie down. He also did very well at staying in the crate (without whining), even if the door was wide open and I'd picked up his leash, until I finally released him, at which point he hopped straight out and sat very nicely at attention in front of me. We also worked on hairpin turns on calling the dog's names when they were busy sniffing at something else, and discussed how to train them to "look at that".

It's interesting to hear about how other CU instructors do things.

I'm glad it went well for you, and I look forward to hearing how things go as you progress through the class!

[Jedismom]

We had our first Control Unleashed class this morning too. We also had four dogs and we were set up to be at the four corners of the room. We mostly practiced trying to be calm on the mat in the presence of other dogs, and distractions such as the trainer approaching. Jedi lay down and was focused on me but never really achieved total calmness. He did ok though. The goal seemed to be to keep them all under threshold at all times. He whined some but it never escalated to more than that. It was hard for him to break his focus off me to do a "Look at That". We'll work on that this week. He got rewarded if he shifted his attention back to me without my calling him and we didn't work with crates. So a little different than Alchemist's experience. I just got the book in the mail so I'll be reading that also. I hope I can pick your brain sometimes Kristine, I know you are well versed in this.

[Root Beer]

Jedi lay down and was focused on me but never really achieved total calmness. He did ok though. The goal seemed to be to keep them all under threshold at all times. He whined some but it never escalated to more than that.

Repetition will help with that. Once it becomes a habit, he won't have to think about it as much, and he will relax more.

It was hard for him to break his focus off me to do a "Look at That". We'll work on that this week.

Trick of the trade - practice it at home by a window! The more you practice Look at That outside of class, the easier it will get in class.

He got rewarded if he shifted his attention back to me without my calling him and we didn't work with crates. So a little different than Alchemist's experience. I just got the book in the mail so I'll be reading that also. I hope I can pick your brain sometimes Kristine, I know you are well versed in this.

Anytime! I love talking CU!

It's really interesting to me that both of your classes started LAT the first week. I don't normally introduce it until the second week. I always have everyone load up clickers the first week because normally most of the students haven't used them before. The main reason I hold off on LAT until the second week is that I want all of the dogs to know what the click means before we introduce it into training LAT.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about your experiences as you move through the class.