Herding instincts

[Lewis Moon]

For a while I've thought Cerbie was, at best, indifferent to herding. Maybe it was his Lab genes...maybe it was that we really don't give him much of a chance to herd....well...

Cerbie turned 4 months this weekend and to celebrate...it rained. We usually go to the park every day to play with the other pups (socialization) and work some commands. Because it was so wet, I decided a walk on the streets of our neighborhood would be a better option...Cerbie had a different idea. As we passed the gate to park with Cerbie at heel, I felt something leaning against my leg. When I looked down, there he was leaning against me and giving my pants leg little nips....all this in the direction of the park. Where are the sheep when you need them.

[Lenajo]

That's not herding instinct, or even cute. It's demanding and rude. And when she's a few months older you're going to be unhappily ooking for ways to stop it.

 

I'd stop it now, when she's small enough that a gruff NO and a leash jangle will make plenty of impact.

[Lewis Moon]

That's not herding instinct, or even cute. It's demanding and rude. And when she's a few months older you're going to be unhappily ooking for ways to stop it.

 

I'd stop it now, when she's small enough that a gruff NO and a leash jangle will make plenty of impact.

 

 

OK, give me some credit for mean intelligence...and a break.

Do I know it's a behavior that could blossom into something unwanted at the very least? Yes. Really....

Did I correct him immediately and keep walking? Yes.

Is it cute?....from a 16 week old puppy...what's not cute?

 

OK, I'll admit it. I'm a noob and really enamoured with the new pup.....but I am NOT lacking in deduction and observation skills....and I'm trying VERY hard to not make any major mistakes in his training.

Forgive me for what little mirth I got from his trying to "train" me.

[scomona]

My pup started to wrestle with my pants and feet at about that age too.

 

On one of our walks I was wearing stretch pants and he pulled on my pants with his teeth.... then he pulled my pants right down around my knees! I had his leash in one hand and a full poo bag in the other hand! It was so embarrassing.

 

He would also nip at my toes and I came down the stairs... I felt that it was dangerous for both of us so I gave him a firm no. He tried a few other times.... and after 3 or 4 growly no's he stopped or just grew out of it.

 

I dont know anything about herding instincts in BC's... but I have heard the only way to see true instincts are on sheep or livestock. But anyways- it is neat to see how our pups want to get our attention and express what they want, even if we have to tell them to be more polite!

[Samsonsworld]

I thought it was cute. Puppies can do no evil. They have to learn to communicate with you through trial and error and it takes a little time. I think it's much better to get a chuckle than to panic because you have Cujo on your hands.

 

When BC tries to turn you around to prevent you from leaving a room, I think that is a unique characteristic of a herding dog. I've got one that will stare at my youngest for eternity and as soon as he moves, she runs to cut him off. She's even tried to turn me around a few times.

 

 

My $.02.

[Maralynn]

OK, give me some credit for mean intelligence...and a break.

Do I know it's a behavior that could blossom into something unwanted at the very least? Yes. Really....

Did I correct him immediately and keep walking? Yes.

Is it cute?....from a 16 week old puppy...what's not cute?

 

OK, I'll admit it. I'm a noob and really enamoured with the new pup.....but I am NOT lacking in deduction and observation skills....and I'm trying VERY hard to not make any major mistakes in his training.

Forgive me for what little mirth I got from his trying to "train" me.

 

Just remember that habits that they can pick up in 2-3 repeats can take months to break. The "learn quick" thing goes two ways...

 

I thought it was cute. Puppies can do no evil. They have to learn to communicate with you through trial and error and it takes a little time. I think it's much better to get a chuckle than to panic because you have Cujo on your hands. wink.gif

 

When BC tries to turn you around to prevent you from leaving a room, I think that is a unique characteristic of a herding dog. I've got one that will stare at my youngest for eternity and as soon as he moves, she runs to cut him off. She's even tried to turn me around a few times.

 

Okay. I had to respond to this too. Yup, they can do no evil. They just learn habits that get them sent to the pound when they turn into a dog (not insinuating that this will happen in your case, but it is a common occurrence).

 

And preventing you from leaving the room is not a herding dog thing. I have 3 and they don't do it. It's a bad habit that's going to get more annoying as time goes by. You need to redirect her, give her something else to do with her energy and teach her to chill.

[stockdogranch]

For a while I've thought Cerbie was, at best, indifferent to herding. Maybe it was his Lab genes...maybe it was that we really don't give him much of a chance to herd

Does this mean that you did in fact take him for a try at livestock?

Puppies can do no evil.

REALLY!?!?! As Maralynn suggests, believing that puppies can do no harm is just how many behaviors get started that wind up putting a dog in the shelter or rescue (or worse),

A

[Lokisaab]

If the dog is only 4 months old how can you have any real idea what he's indifferent to or not? At that age everything still needs to be developed, even his retriever instincts.

 

Anyway, in my house the Border Collie that is obsessed with my ferrets, herding them, blocking them, staring at them, was a completely unbiddable dog on livestock. I tried for over a year to work through her flaws and develop her before pulling her off stock for good. She is now a wonderful little agility dog.

On the other hand, her younger brother, my herding BC, who has a lovely natural ability on sheep, sits quietly in the house and lets chaos roll right past him.

 

He does enjoy watching TV if anyone wants to analyze what that means.

[ejano]

For a while I've thought Cerbie was, at best, indifferent to herding. Maybe it was his Lab genes...maybe it was that we really don't give him much of a chance to herd....well...

Cerbie turned 4 months this weekend and to celebrate...it rained. We usually go to the park every day to play with the other pups (socialization) and work some commands. Because it was so wet, I decided a walk on the streets of our neighborhood would be a better option...Cerbie had a different idea. As we passed the gate to park with Cerbie at heel, I felt something leaning against my leg. When I looked down, there he was leaning against me and giving my pants leg little nips....all this in the direction of the park. Where are the sheep when you need them.

 

Around the first couple of weeks we brought Ladybug home, Ken was walking her out in the field in the evening. It was one of those country nights when the moon is very full and the snow was so bright (She came to us as a4 year old rescue at Christmas). He was enchanted with nature, so he kept walking up the hill and she kept pressing at his leg, trying to turn him back. She didn't want to be out in a strange field after dark and was letting him know how unwise his choice was. He gently reassured her and it was the first and the last time she's questioned our wisdom.

 

The others are right, however gruff they may be. Any kind of pushing and nipping, however well intentioned, is not to be encouraged because they'll take it in their heads they can rule you that way and you are suddenly not the person in charge. Pups that nip at heels end up nipping at kids and then parents start screaming and the next thing you know its a very big deal. And never, EVER (yes, I'm shouting) let them think they have control over a child. This is indeed how many pups end up in rescue at 6-8 months because suddenly they're bigger, nearly adult, not so cute anymore and they're developing bad habits.

 

I look at it this way and maybe I'll be bringing wrath down on my own head, but IMO pups and untrained BCs have an a very strong instinct to chase after something but they're not herding -- herding is when the human handler turns that chase instinct into something worthwhile.

 

Case in point. We had Brodie and Robin for a visit at the breeders. They're 10 months old January 16, so they're learning their manners, but they've got a ways to go. Turn them loose in the farmyard, she said. The sheep and the goats are all locked up in the barn. The chickens are all locked up. Let them run.

 

Well, the chickens were locked up, but the Guinea Fowl weren't and they didn't run from the pups because the pups Mom Daisy leaves them alone. She harasses them just for practice but she's under control...doesn't ever hurt them. Brodie is a little timid, and more thoughtful and he followed her lead, just lurking behind them, going this way and that. Fine so far. Yes, he's got some good instincts and some good moves. He'll do well if he ever learns to lay down when we're further than two feet away from him.

 

All of a sudden, "That Robin" has he's been affectionately known since birth for his penchant for getting into trouble, come barreling out of nowhere, plunges right into the middle of these birds that don't run away because Daisy never bothers them and managed to catch one by the tail feathers. It is now lacking tail feathers. Wow, that's fun...lets go after another one! He gallops away, all of us in hot pursuit because he's only ten months old and not responding to DOWN because he's been watching these birds since he was a tiny pup, and he's having the time of his young life! He manages to catch another one which is pretty naked, by the time we catch him and he gets a firm lecture in not pulling all the feathers out of guinea fowl. He will need a great deal of training to overcome his excitement over the thrill of chasing hither and yon after chickens and turn it into a useful herding skill.

 

Liz

[border_collie_crazy]

Anyway, in my house the Border Collie that is obsessed with my ferrets, herding them, blocking them, staring at them, was a completely unbiddable dog on livestock. I tried for over a year to work through her flaws and develop her before pulling her off stock for good. She is now a wonderful little agility dog.

 

haha, that sounds familer! exept opposite in my case...my dog that "herds" my rabbit and guinea pigs..and sucks, she gets sticky and goes into lockdown mode in which she wont respond to anything exept to jump out and bite, she is too "frozen" on whatever it is to be aware of her surroundings. I thought for sure she would suck..I was wronge. she is a TOTALLY different dog on real stock, and actually very talented!

[Eileen Stein]

For a while I've thought Cerbie was, at best, indifferent to herding. Maybe it was his Lab genes...maybe it was that we really don't give him much of a chance to herd....well...

Cerbie turned 4 months this weekend and to celebrate...it rained. We usually go to the park every day to play with the other pups (socialization) and work some commands. Because it was so wet, I decided a walk on the streets of our neighborhood would be a better option...Cerbie had a different idea. As we passed the gate to park with Cerbie at heel, I felt something leaning against my leg. When I looked down, there he was leaning against me and giving my pants leg little nips....all this in the direction of the park. Where are the sheep when you need them.

 

If I had been in your shoes, Lewis Moon, I would have reacted just the way you did -- recognized it as an attempt to get you to go where you "should" be going, thought it was cute, and given the pup a mild correction. IMO, experiences like this are part of the fun of learning about the personality of your growing pup. I like interactions like this with a pup, where he tries to communicate with me and I have a chance to let him know how best to do it and how not to do it.

[Samsonsworld]

And preventing you from leaving the room is not a herding dog thing. I have 3 and they don't do it. It's a bad habit that's going to get more annoying as time goes by. You need to redirect her, give her something else to do with her energy and teach her to chill.

 

Really? Because I've yet to see a non-herding dog try that but have known a couple herding dogs that did/do. They try to keep you in a group.

 

And I think you're the one that needs to chill. She isn't hurting anybody. I just walk through her and she goes on her merry way.

 

I also never said behavior doesn't need to be addressed but it it won't change overnight and overreacting about it doesn't help anything or anybody.

[Samsonsworld]

Does this mean that you did in fact take him for a try at livestock?

 

REALLY!?!?! As Maralynn suggests, believing that puppies can do no harm is just how many behaviors get started that wind up putting a dog in the shelter or rescue (or worse),

A

 

 

OMG, Cujo tries to redirect my path on the way to the bathroom. Let's take her to the pound! Give me a break. Now I remember why I quit coming around here. Lots of good people but a few too many judgemental know it alls.

[Lenajo]

OMG, Cujo tries to redirect my path on the way to the bathroom. Let's take her to the pound! Give me a break. Now I remember why I quit coming around here. Lots of good people but a few too many judgemental know it alls.

 

And that's your standard response: Don't like what I'm doing you say? Insult coming you way! I have to give you credit though. You are the most predicatable person on the boards.

 

If people would stop calling puppy rudeness "cute" we go a long way to preventing a lot of problems.

 

I don't find a puppy's teeth on me in an effort to make my mind up about what it wants to be cute - ever. Encouraging that by laughing along with the owner isn't very helpful either - though it does put some sweet perfume on top of a stinky issue.

 

You don't have to come down on the puppy with fury and hate to make to your point. A stern no and some firm body language *at this age* goes a long, long way. After the behavior is a habit (less than 5 repetitions in an average collie) then your corrections have to get more elaborate, and often harsher. The dog will try the behavior on someone who doesn't appreciate it - and as he gets bigger the little "nip" that worked will grow up as well.

 

And then, yes, many pet owners then solve the problem by putting the dog down as a "biter" or hand them over to Rescue to fix. Alarmist? Sadly no, I wish the problem were so uncommon that you could call me that!

[Tommy Coyote]

OMG, Cujo tries to redirect my path on the way to the bathroom. Let's take her to the pound! Give me a break. Now I remember why I quit coming around here. Lots of good people but a few too many judgemental know it alls.

I've always felt like having a puppy - and any dog, for that matter - should be a fun thing. If you get too hung up on every little behavior thing it can take all of the joy out of owning a dog. I love seeing their personalities develop.

 

My dogs may not be the best behaved in the group but I just really enjoy them. They are both so funny and so much fun to have around. Its really hard to be depressed when they are around because they have such a joyful approach to everyday life.

[Samsonsworld]

And then, yes, many pet owners then solve the problem by putting the dog down as a "biter" or hand them over to Rescue to fix. Alarmist? Sadly no, I wish the problem were so uncommon that you could call me that!

 

I'm predictable but you're the one trying to stereotype? Do I even know you? Truth is people that turn their pets over to rescue should have never been pet owners at all and had unrealistic views of how a dog will act. I'm not the problem and I'd bet the person who started this post isn't either. So lighten up.

[juliepoudrier]

Really? Because I've yet to see a non-herding dog try that but have known a couple herding dogs that did/do. They try to keep you in a group.

I think what gets people up in arms over "herding behaviors" is that too often people dismiss certain behaviors as "herding instinct" and therefore somehow not trainable or solvable (for example, chasing the lawn mower or cars or the kids, etc.). If the general public would understand that herding behaviors inappropriately directed should be corrected for the safety of the dog and the humans then perhaps fewer adolescent herding breed dogs would end up in rescue. I also think this is why many of us with working dogs will automatically say, "It's not herding; it's bad behavior." It's a way of trying to make a point that the behavior should be corrected rather than dismissed as "Oh he's trying to herd me, or the kids, or the chain saw..." all of which can of course have disastrous (to a greater or lesser degree) consequences.

 

I have a friend who doesn't mind if a pup hangs onto her pants leg. Her view is very much a minority one among working dog folks. She feels it's a phase they go through, and she simply dedicates one pair of pants to be the ones that will likely be ruined by puppy teeth. Her philosophy is "let the pup be a pup" because there will be plenty of time for growing up and learning later. But she is also a very dog savvy person and even though she takes a more laissez-faire attitude, her adult dogs are all very well behaved and a pleasure to be around.

 

So, yes, the behavior in many cases *is* unique to herding breeds. And it can be funny, cute, or not. I think as long as people (and I'm not referring to anyone specifically in this thread, but rather the general puppy raising public) recognize that while it may be cute it could also be a problem, and that while the behavior stems from instinct that doesn't make it uncorrectable, then these discussions wouldn't happen on such a regular basis.

 

J.

[Pat W.]

My this list has become uncharterisctally snarky of late...sheesh the OP posted something she thought was cute from her

pup...which it was. Then noted that she/he also issued a gentle correction on just who was walking who and where they were going, and people jump all over her. Calm down people take a moment to smile say yup that was cute, not OMG! this dog is out of control and this owner has no control or clue.

[IPSY]

If I had been in your shoes, Lewis Moon, I would have reacted just the way you did -- recognized it as an attempt to get you to go where you "should" be going, thought it was cute, and given the pup a mild correction. IMO, experiences like this are part of the fun of learning about the personality of your growing pup. I like interactions like this with a pup, where he tries to communicate with me and I have a chance to let him know how best to do it and how not to do it.

 

I agree . Thats the fun of puppies. Learning each of their individual behaviours and then shaing them to what you want.

Theres a good reason to correct bad behaviours form the getgo , but IMO , you need to do it carefully , so as not to discourage the puppy from being outgoing and personable. I understand the "conversation" , I can see everybody's viewpoint . Whats excepted by one person may not be excepted by another , its just that simple.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Really? Because I've yet to see a non-herding dog try that but have known a couple herding dogs that did/do. They try to keep you in a group.

 

FWIW, I have a foster dog right now that will go into a "crouch and stare" and lock Daisy into a corner when he wants to play. He is by no means even remotely close to a border collie and defiantly not a herding breed of any sort. So any dog can do behaviours like this.

[PSmitty]

Forgive me for what little mirth I got from his trying to "train" me.

 

Danger! No-mirth zone ahead.

[IPSY]

THE FUN POLICE COMETH !

[Root Beer]

I've always felt like having a puppy - and any dog, for that matter - should be a fun thing. If you get too hung up on every little behavior thing it can take all of the joy out of owning a dog. I love seeing their personalities develop.

 

My dogs may not be the best behaved in the group but I just really enjoy them. They are both so funny and so much fun to have around. Its really hard to be depressed when they are around because they have such a joyful approach to everyday life.

 

I feel pretty much the same.

 

Waaaaaay back when I took my first obedience classes, Speedy was such a scamp. He went through a phase where he would lie down every time he was put in a sit stay and sit back up every time he was put in a down stay. His ears gave everything away. At that time they weren't quite standing all the way up, but when he was about to sit during the down stay or down during the sit stay, they would stand straight up!

 

Well, one day we were practicing sit and down stays and Speedy did his thing. I laughed out loud. I thought it was really funny. The instructor, who was a really great guy, was shocked that I thought it was funny and laughed. To his way of thinking, laughing would reinforce it and Speedy would never learn to hold the sit or down stay.

 

Speedy eventually got it all sorted out. He's still a scamp, but he does really nice sit and down stays.

 

Now that he's much older, that is one of my favorite memories of his early training. I don't regret laughing in the least. In fact, I'm glad I did! I'm glad I shared that moment of comic relief with my pup!

 

I used to let him do a lot of things that would probably make a lot of you cringe. I used to let him chew on my feet with those sharp puppy teeth! I thought it was adorable even if it did hurt a little. He outgrew that one very early on, but that's another sweet puppy memory.

 

That's not to say I think that all behavior should just be let go or lived with. Of course young dogs need to learn appropriate behavior. But some of those puppy things that would be unacceptable behavior for an adult dog are cute when they are puppies. In my book it makes a lot of sense to laugh at it and enjoy it. I'd be showing my dog what behavior I want in place of that, at the same time, but I would certainly laugh.

 

I have a friend who doesn't mind if a pup hangs onto her pants leg. Her view is very much a minority one among working dog folks. She feels it's a phase they go through, and she simply dedicates one pair of pants to be the ones that will likely be ruined by puppy teeth. Her philosophy is "let the pup be a pup" because there will be plenty of time for growing up and learning later.

 

I operate a lot along those lines, as well. And I haven't surrendered a dog to rescue for bad behavior yet and certainly don't intend to!

[Samsonsworld]

FWIW, I have a foster dog right now that will go into a "crouch and stare" and lock Daisy into a corner when he wants to play. He is by no means even remotely close to a border collie and defiantly not a herding breed of any sort. So any dog can do behaviours like this.

 

And that dog wraps around you in an effort to turn you back? Not saying it isn't possible, I just haven't ever seen it. But if it's not a herding instinct I don't know what is. I know my dog is in work mode when she does it. She has a completely different demeanor than when in play mode.

 

EDIT: Guess I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

 

These dogs are genetically programmed to want to keep livestock, pack members or even children in one area.

 

Link

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Not trying to get into an argument here. Just showing my experience with non-herding breeds.

Herding instinct is actually an elevated prey drive of sorts, so again, any dog can exhibit these behaviours. I think it's just super common to see in border collies or other herding breeds because they are still working dogs and therefore the predisposition is still there. Chasing things isn't "herding", it's displaying prey drive, herding stock is a learned behaviour.