Dog Whisperer

[Blackdawgs]

Blackdawgs, my questions are not rhetorical or cynical in any way. I'm truly interested. How did your dog become "fear-agressive" to begin with? How old was the dog when you began rehab? How long did it take for the rehab and what methods were used?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

 

I obtained my BC from the county animal shelter. She had been picked-up as a stray from a rural area and based on her body condition, she had been on her own for awhile. The county vet estimated that she was 1.5 years old. So, her history is completely unknown. Three days after coming home, she developed a terrible upper respiratory infection (think green snot, fever, etc) and had to be isolated from other dogs, including my resident dog for 6 weeks. During that time, while walking her around the neighborhood, I noticed that her body language was very up, when she saw dogs in the distance. However, her introduction to my dog, who is great with other dogs, was actually very uneventful, although she did hid behind a chair in my spare room (with the door open) for the first 24 hours after the intro.

 

The fear aggression manifested in group obedience and agility classes. There was much growling, lunging, etc . The obedience instructor wanted me to "flatten her". Although I consider this person a friend, I never went back to her class. I pulled my dog from both group classes. I later learned that she scared people in the classes.

 

Her trigger was dogs (but not her "sister"). Especially medium sized and large dogs. Any sort of frontal approach or eye contact made her go ballistic.

 

When walking thru the neighborhood, she knew where every dog lived and she would start looking for the dogs behind the fences even if they weren't there.

 

The strange thing was that it took hours for her to come back to earth after an encounter with a strange dog. And these weren't physical encounters, they were visual. She would pant and be agitated for hours after seeing a strange dog. For awhile, I had toyed with the idea of consulting with the DVM behaviorist and finally did after a bizarrre incident. On the way to a class (this was after months of private lessons), we had stopped at a local park. On the trail, we encountered a man walking 2 small white dogs. I told the man to keep his distance and ofcourse the damn dogs were on flexis. One of the dogs approached my dog and barked at her from maybe 2 feet away--only barked at her, no physical contact. She sat down, looked terrified, didn't make a sound. We walked back to the car and I put her inside. She sat on the back seat and just started growling. At nothing. After we drive to class, she blew up at the first dog that we saw, the dog was about 30-40 feet away and wasn't even looking at her. I contacted the DVM behaviorist the next day.

 

In the early days, she growled a lot, but never made eye contact with me while doing so--actually she would go out of her way not to look at me.

 

The behaviorist came to my house and observed her alone, and with my other dog, and we talked for 2.5-3 hours. The dog was diagnosed with moderate generialized anxiety disorder. The vet prescribed prozac. The prozac was by no means a cure all, but it did help her come down to earth faster after seeing another dog. Instead of being wild eyed and panting for hours after an "encounter", it was minutes, so it gave us a window for learning.

 

The first thing that we did was to minimize her exposure to her "triggers" (strange dogs ), so her stress hormones could dissipate and to allow time for the prozac to reach therapeutic levels. During this time, I rewarded (with food) relaxed behaviors. Basically, she was rewarded for what we called her happy expression (ears up, soft eye contact with me, relaxed facial muscles) and later this was put on command. We started in a quiet room in my house, moved to my backyard, and then gradually went on the road. At the same time, if she saw a dog (there were visual encounters with dogs that I just couldn't control), I would say "dog" and then shove peanut butter or baby food in her face, no matter what she was doing, even if she was acting-out. Yes, I know that it seems like its rewarding bad behavior, but it's really changing negative associations (dogs) to positive associations (PEANUT BUTTER!!). During this time, I intentionally exposed her to dogs at great distances (initally a neighborhood block away), while saying "dog", shoving food in her face, and then doing a 180 and walking away. Over time, we moved closer to the strange dogs.

 

This whole process took about a year and is still ongoing. Now, she can participate in group classes, herding clinics, walk thru Petsmart, etc without exploding. And if she starts to react, I can stop it by saying "dog". To give you an example how this works, a few days ago I was walking down the street with her and a dog behind a fence started barking at her. She barked once and started to lunge. I said "dog" in a happy voice and she self-interupted the lunge, looked at me, and then started boucing up and down with her tail wagging, so I gave her a treat. This also works, if I don't have food in my pocket. Because I've changed the negative association to a positive association using a bridge (the word "dog").

 

Over time her generialized anxiety has decreased. She is less clingy with me. Her respiration is more normal (she was always panting), and she sleeps more soundly. Several months ago, I tried to wean her off the prozac, but wasn't able to because she started having random episodes of anxiety (panting in the car) and reactivity. I may try again this summer.

 

So, that's the story. The process has been expensive and time consuming--obviously not something that many people would be willing or able to do. As I said, I don't know her history. She was 1.5 years old when I got her and I've had her for just over 2 years.

 

BTW, even with all her barking, growling, and lunging, she never harmed another dog. During her bad times, we had several encounters with loose dogs and her response was always silent terror--she would sit in one spot and look like she was being raped. I've read that this is pretty typical for fear-aggressive dogs, the show is designed to maintain space, but once the boundary is breached, the dog just gives up.

 

I don't know what went wrong with her, if she had a bad experience, was poorly socialiazed, if her first owner(s) screwed up, and/ or she has bad genes. I'm guessing that it is a combination of all of the above. I will say that panic disorder tends to run in human families and there is very definately a biochemical component. There is no reason to believe that dogs are any different.

[herdcentral]

I have had a similar experience to Blackdawgs. I have raised 10 dogs (ACDS and BCs) from pups and they have all turned out well adjusted and sociable except for one. I knew from early on I had a problem, she was fearful of strangers and dogs and over the top full on. She would lunge and scream, nip at peoples feet, chase dogs screaming and nipping with relentless precision if I let her. She was a nightmare dog. I socialised her and introduced her to the world but she was something else. Any type of force put her in a state of complete shutdown and did not solve the problem.

 

After several tries, I found a wonderful behaviourist to work with and we decide to try the counter conditioning and desensitisation, I also had a wonderful obedience instuctor and people at classes willing to help. I used treats extensivley initially and look at the dog etc. Sure using lots of treats seemed counter intuitive at the time but used in the precise way the beviourist showed me it really worked wonders.

 

Man that dog was hard work but the I will never forget when she started to be able to do the off leash sit stays sitting next to a GSD at obedience (extreme fear of GSDS) and out of sight stays. I could walk her round busy streets and talk to strangers while she sat at my side. She could even manage a stand for examination, where once she would have fled shrieking, or at the sight of a turned back go in for a little nip.

 

She became able to play with certain strange dogs once introduced properly and I had established they were of a laid back non reactive nature. She was able to remain calm with strangers. If surprised she would shriek but would quickly calm down. She was super obedient and always won at our in club trials where she knew everyone, and if it wasnt for her temperament I think she would have been a wonderful obedience trialing dog. I just didnt think she needed that kind of stress in her life

 

She never showed any aggression within the family and she did have mild dysplasia in one elbow. I cant say she was ever completely normal and I always made sure I watched her closely but I am eternally grateful to my behaviourist and the methods she showed me.

[mbc1963]

FWIW, my experience with my fear reactive dog was pretty much the same as BlackDawg's (minus the Prozac) and HerdCentral's. Again, it would have been boring to watch the desensitization on TV. Long, tedious. However, I could argue that if a case like this were followed from start to normalish-finish, and then snippets played (Day 1... Day 17... Day 281...), it could make a very[/i ]interesting program.

 

Yesterday, I was walking Buddy, and a family with two kids, mother, father, and grandmother was out by the pond. The grandmother lives in my neighborhood; I've met her several times over the years. The man was squatting, filming his kids and the grandmother on a patch of ice. Buddy sidled up to to him, wagging slowly, looking for treats, I suspect.

 

The grandmother watched him and then said, "This dog has come so far since he's come to live with this woman. He's like a completely different dog now!" It's just about the best experience I can have - running into someone who really remembers Buddy as he used to be, and who can really appreciate the progress he's made.

 

If I could have known in the early days that I'd someday be having encounters like that, it would have made all the difference to me.

 

Mary

[BorderCollieSam]

My complaint regarding Cesar is opposite of most people, I think he tries too hard to help dogs that are too dangerous to live in their current situations and impossible to place. One episode at the beginning of the series involved a small child in the house with a very reactive/aggressive older dog. I would have liked him to say "hey, your three year old is more important than keeping alive a dog that might take her face off". But that's just me ...

 

I think most people are forgetting that this IS a TV Programme!

 

To increase his popularity and gain interest from viewers, he IS going to take on the most difficult of dogs that most people would think are beyond help, and he IS going to use Alpha Male behaviour to control the dog, this IS what makes the program and HIM so interesting and popular!

 

Its a little like Tarzan and the animals of the jungle!

 

I find it interesting to watch, but at the end of the day i know its just another TV program, nothing different than watching BayWatch or EastEnders, yeah you may find something in the program that you can learn from, but after all said and done, it IS only a TV Program....

[BorderCollieSam]

I've just watched that video, and personally, even though i'm a bloke, i actually found that quite disturbing....

 

For one, i wouldn't have tried that type of thing with a dog that mentally unstable in a confined space like a garage of all places!!!

 

Surely that is only going to aggrevate the situation and make the dog even worse, he is going to feel closterphobic (excuse spelling) and under attack with nowhere to run, surely?

 

I'm no expert in dog agression, but from common sense and my experience with dogs in the past, i would find a mutual place i.e., somewhere out in the middle of a field in the countryside somewhere with just me and the dog.

 

You've got to have mutual ground, a place where neither the dog nor the handler feels anxious in my opinion.....

[Amelia]

Blackdawgs, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'm a huge fan of adoption and rescue and appreciate all the time, effort and money you spent to salvage someone's elses heartlessness. Good for you and good for your dog. I leaned from your post. Thank you,

[flyer]

I obtained my BC from the county animal shelter. She had been picked-up as a stray from a rural area and based on her body condition, she had been on her own for awhile. The county vet estimated that she was 1.5 years old. So, her history is completely unknown. Three days after coming home, she developed a terrible upper respiratory infection (think green snot, fever, etc) and had to be isolated from other dogs, including my resident dog for 6 weeks. During that time, while walking her around the neighborhood, I noticed that her body language was very up, when she saw dogs in the distance. However, her introduction to my dog, who is great with other dogs, was actually very uneventful, although she did hid behind a chair in my spare room (with the door open) for the first 24 hours after the intro.

 

The fear aggression manifested in group obedience and agility classes. There was much growling, lunging, etc . The obedience instructor wanted me to "flatten her". Although I consider this person a friend, I never went back to her class. I pulled my dog from both group classes. I later learned that she scared people in the classes.

 

Her trigger was dogs (but not her "sister"). Especially medium sized and large dogs. Any sort of frontal approach or eye contact made her go ballistic.

 

When walking thru the neighborhood, she knew where every dog lived and she would start looking for the dogs behind the fences even if they weren't there.

 

The strange thing was that it took hours for her to come back to earth after an encounter with a strange dog. And these weren't physical encounters, they were visual. She would pant and be agitated for hours after seeing a strange dog. For awhile, I had toyed with the idea of consulting with the DVM behaviorist and finally did after a bizarrre incident. On the way to a class (this was after months of private lessons), we had stopped at a local park. On the trail, we encountered a man walking 2 small white dogs. I told the man to keep his distance and ofcourse the damn dogs were on flexis. One of the dogs approached my dog and barked at her from maybe 2 feet away--only barked at her, no physical contact. She sat down, looked terrified, didn't make a sound. We walked back to the car and I put her inside. She sat on the back seat and just started growling. At nothing. After we drive to class, she blew up at the first dog that we saw, the dog was about 30-40 feet away and wasn't even looking at her. I contacted the DVM behaviorist the next day.

 

In the early days, she growled a lot, but never made eye contact with me while doing so--actually she would go out of her way not to look at me.

 

The behaviorist came to my house and observed her alone, and with my other dog, and we talked for 2.5-3 hours. The dog was diagnosed with moderate generialized anxiety disorder. The vet prescribed prozac. The prozac was by no means a cure all, but it did help her come down to earth faster after seeing another dog. Instead of being wild eyed and panting for hours after an "encounter", it was minutes, so it gave us a window for learning.

 

The first thing that we did was to minimize her exposure to her "triggers" (strange dogs ), so her stress hormones could dissipate and to allow time for the prozac to reach therapeutic levels. During this time, I rewarded (with food) relaxed behaviors. Basically, she was rewarded for what we called her happy expression (ears up, soft eye contact with me, relaxed facial muscles) and later this was put on command. We started in a quiet room in my house, moved to my backyard, and then gradually went on the road. At the same time, if she saw a dog (there were visual encounters with dogs that I just couldn't control), I would say "dog" and then shove peanut butter or baby food in her face, no matter what she was doing, even if she was acting-out. Yes, I know that it seems like its rewarding bad behavior, but it's really changing negative associations (dogs) to positive associations (PEANUT BUTTER!!). During this time, I intentionally exposed her to dogs at great distances (initally a neighborhood block away), while saying "dog", shoving food in her face, and then doing a 180 and walking away. Over time, we moved closer to the strange dogs.

 

This whole process took about a year and is still ongoing. Now, she can participate in group classes, herding clinics, walk thru Petsmart, etc without exploding. And if she starts to react, I can stop it by saying "dog". To give you an example how this works, a few days ago I was walking down the street with her and a dog behind a fence started barking at her. She barked once and started to lunge. I said "dog" in a happy voice and she self-interupted the lunge, looked at me, and then started boucing up and down with her tail wagging, so I gave her a treat. This also works, if I don't have food in my pocket. Because I've changed the negative association to a positive association using a bridge (the word "dog").

 

Over time her generialized anxiety has decreased. She is less clingy with me. Her respiration is more normal (she was always panting), and she sleeps more soundly. Several months ago, I tried to wean her off the prozac, but wasn't able to because she started having random episodes of anxiety (panting in the car) and reactivity. I may try again this summer.

 

So, that's the story. The process has been expensive and time consuming--obviously not something that many people would be willing or able to do. As I said, I don't know her history. She was 1.5 years old when I got her and I've had her for just over 2 years.

 

BTW, even with all her barking, growling, and lunging, she never harmed another dog. During her bad times, we had several encounters with loose dogs and her response was always silent terror--she would sit in one spot and look like she was being raped. I've read that this is pretty typical for fear-aggressive dogs, the show is designed to maintain space, but once the boundary is breached, the dog just gives up.

 

I don't know what went wrong with her, if she had a bad experience, was poorly socialiazed, if her first owner(s) screwed up, and/ or she has bad genes. I'm guessing that it is a combination of all of the above. I will say that panic disorder tends to run in human families and there is very definately a biochemical component. There is no reason to believe that dogs are any different.

 

It is from reading posts like this on this board that got me reading the appropriate authors in order to learn to counter condition my pup who was presenting a growing fear of strangers. His father is a fear aggressive dog and I was very worried about my Colt. Feeding treats and rewarding with toys did feel very counter intuitive as he was barking, but I have to say it has worked with him. I really don't know if he would have grown out of the fear stage or not but I was taking no chances. It took just about six weeks before I noticed his initial reactions to strangers was one of "Oh boy, a person". He was eight-nine months old at the time and I had done a lot of socializing with him as a very young pup.

 

I want to thank Blackdawgs and all the others who take the time to write in such detail about their experiences. It really does help us pet owner/novice trainers out here.

[Cody & Duchess]

blackdawg, herdcentral - Thank you for a thoughtfully written description of your experiences with your fear aggression dogs. You highlighted that the fix is not fast or easy. That steely determination with a consistant hand is needed. Thanks for all you did with your dogs and your insightful answer.

[Mariji]

Like this?

 

 

Pam

 

That is disgusting! There is no way a dog should get to that point and such a beautiful dog too. It was completely terrified. My heart goes out to that poor puppy.

[Liz P]

As far as his background and what the Doctors say, I'm more likely to take the advice of someone with real-life, hands-on experience handling a multitude of different dogs, then those who have only studied it.

 

Board certified animal behaviorists spend years getting hands on experience before they can earn their title. This experience is often with the worst of the worst as far as behavioral problems go.

[Blackdawgs]

Board certified animal behaviorists spend years getting hands on experience before they can earn their title. This experience is often with the worst of the worst as far as behavioral problems go.

 

Yes, board certified animal behaviorists are veterinarians, who complete post graduate residencies in animal behavior. After they complete the residency, they are "board-eligible"; they have to pass a test (oral and written) to become board-certified. There are 49 boarded veterinary behaviorists in the US + Canada (see here for a list: http://www.dacvb.org/) These people are the equivalent of human psychiatrists, who are MDs, complete a residency in psychiatry, and pass a test. The MD (or DVM) allows the person to legally prescribe drugs.

 

In terms of the training and cases that these people see, the residencies are generally at vet schools. No one is going to drag their dog to a vet school and pay the $$$ for an animal that is simply badly behaved. These are dogs and cats, who the local trainers and vets can't help; veterinary behaviorists are frequently the last stop before euthanasia.

 

My dog was never in danger of being euthanized. For her, it was a quality of life thing, minimizing her anxiety and not forcing me to imprison her on my little suburban lot. I took both dogs to the botanical gardens today--a year ago walking in a public place with both dogs was unimagineable. I had origionally adopted her as an agility prospect, but in the end she doesn't love agility enough for the scarey stuff in the environment not to matter. When she is in a herding environment, she doesn't care about anything but the sheep, so I would have no qualms about trialing her once she was ready from a herding training standpoint.

 

Anyway, many dog trainers also refer to themselves as "behaviorists". Among these folks, there is a broad range of experience/ training ranging from PhDs with practical animal behavior experience to zip. So, one has to scrutinize these folks really carefully, as anyone can call themself a "behaviorist", just as anyone can call themself a horse trainer, or dog trainer, or whatever.

[Lenajo]

Anyway, many dog trainers also refer to themselves as "behaviorists". Among these folks, there is a broad range of experience/ training ranging from PhDs with practical animal behavior experience to zip. So, one has to scrutinize these folks really carefully, as anyone can call themself a "behaviorist", just as anyone can call themself a horse trainer, or dog trainer, or whatever.

 

I would apply the same to the "veterinary behaviorists". My experience with them has been primarily negative. I've found little useful in the advice given, a total lack of respect for human safety over dog "happyness", and the charges they bill for when they know in their heart the dog is never going to be more than a elaborate management scheme of medications and home structure that most pet homes can't possibly manage borders on criminal.

 

CM is a TV show designed around extreme cases for entertainment value. Many postitive and science trained behaviorists and vets would have recommended that dog euthanized - so CM gave him a chance with doing things his way. Maybe he prolonged a bad life, or maybe he made a difference. Dead, is dead - no improvement on that.

 

As for lying a dog on his side until he calms down, *holding him there until he does*, that's a technique called in positive training circles (as promoted, in detail at the Portland APDT conferance) called a "zen down". Isn't if funny how changing the name has made it acceptable in the same circles that actively trash CM and similar trainers?

[bc4ever]

I like to watch Cesar. And Victoria Stillwell. And any other show that has to do with dogs. I might watch CM one night and pick up a tidbit of information or VS and get an idea I hadn't considered before. It's like a smorgasbord--pick and choose what appeals to you. You might not like everything on the menu, but you can probably find something worth trying.

[Lenajo]

I like to watch Cesar. And Victoria Stillwell. And any other show that has to do with dogs. I might watch CM one night and pick up a tidbit of information or VS and get an idea I hadn't considered before. It's like a smorgasbord--pick and choose what appeals to you. You might not like everything on the menu, but you can probably find something worth trying.

 

Agreed

 

Certainly both shows have given me some signficant things to think about.

[pansmom]

I would apply the same to the "veterinary behaviorists". My experience with them has been primarily negative. I've found little useful in the advice given, a total lack of respect for human safety over dog "happyness", and the charges they bill for when they know in their heart the dog is never going to be more than a elaborate management scheme of medications and home structure that most pet homes can't possibly manage borders on criminal.

 

Although I don't want to trivialize the negative experiences you had, Wendy, and although I ended up having to euthanize the dog for whom I sought help from a vet behaviorist, I still feel like I should speak up on their behalf here because my experience with one was wonderful. Dr. Haug told me straight up it would take 1.5+ years to rehab my dog to a manageable place, that she might never be safe around children, but that she believed since some dogs - she can't always tell which - improve dramatically through behavioral modification and medication, so she admired my desire to give Pan a shot. I had already tried methods similar to what CM describes and they had made my dog way worse because she had SEVERE fear aggression. Anyway, Dr. Haug's prices were reasonable, her compassion and email and phone followups were so helpful, I learned so much, and when I ended up deciding to euthanize Pan, she called me on the phone when I emailed her clearly upset, listened to me cry uncontrollably, talked about the situation in a way that was very helpful, and then sent me a sympathy card with a long note and donated $50 to the AAHA Pets Fund which helps animals in need. In short, I was completely impressed with her. I only spent $400 for a 2.5 hour consult with her and the dog and she probably spent wow I don't know how many hours emailing me. And now though Pan is dead, poor thing, she was given a shot, and I learned so much about how to interact with dogs and handle animals in general from Dr. Haug that I am a much better owner as a result. So really great experience here. Just thought I'd weigh in.

 

As for lying a dog on his side until he calms down, *holding him there until he does*, that's a technique called in positive training circles (as promoted, in detail at the Portland APDT conferance) called a "zen down". Isn't if funny how changing the name has made it acceptable in the same circles that actively trash CM and similar trainers?

 

Dr. Haug specifically told me to avoid at all costs to touch my fear aggressive dog with my hands--okay, my dog had gotten to the point where she didn't like petting--but still the idea of making her down with my hands and HOLDING her there, Dr Haug was not happy that I'd tried to force her into a down (I'd been advised by a CM-style behaviorist to do this) -- and Dr Haug was not at all surprised that two of these confrontations seemed to make Pan worse in the long run after a brief respite). Body blocking was okay if necessary with legs and arms but never to force into a down! That seems crazy. I can't believe a BCVB would advocate that? Srsly? What's the Portland APDT?

[geonni banner]

I would apply the same to the "veterinary behaviorists". My experience with them has been primarily negative. I've found little useful in the advice given, a total lack of respect for human safety over dog "happyness", and the charges they bill for when they know in their heart the dog is never going to be more than a elaborate management scheme of medications and home structure that most pet homes can't possibly manage borders on criminal.

 

CM is a TV show designed around extreme cases for entertainment value. Many postitive and science trained behaviorists and vets would have recommended that dog euthanized - so CM gave him a chance with doing things his way. Maybe he prolonged a bad life, or maybe he made a difference. Dead, is dead - no improvement on that.

 

As for lying a dog on his side until he calms down, *holding him there until he does*, that's a technique called in positive training circles (as promoted, in detail at the Portland APDT conferance) called a "zen down". Isn't if funny how changing the name has made it acceptable in the same circles that actively trash CM and similar trainers?

 

Oh, that's too funny!

 

It also made me think about snarling, snapping dogs we used to see at the last veterinary clinic I worked in. We essentially did the same thing to do treatments on dogs brought in for office visits - shots, check-ups, whatever. So were those dogs nasty? Were they terrified? Were they just spoiled? Or did they have "curly brains"? In most cases, I don't know, never having seen them outside the clinic. But no matter how convincingly "savage" they seemed, they were nearly all calmer when we were done, let them up and took off the muzzle.

I'm not saying that we cured dogs of aggressiveness, terror, bad manners or insanity. I'm just saying that they were not scarred by the treatment, and when they returned they were no worse, and in some cases they were much less "hysterical."

I'm no cheerleader for CM, I just don't think what I saw him do in that video was all that bad. Was it disturbing? Yes! But it is always disturbing to see an animal in that much distress. And one thing he said, as others have noted, was that it's important not to reflect back to the dog with anger, panic or fear.

[shysheperdess]

I would like to point out that I think the key to CM's success and one of the KEY factors that should be taken from his "methods" is his calm yet assertive energy. When I have watched the show I am always impressed by at least one thing and that's CM's ability to be "un-emotional", calm, yet firm and effective.

 

I have heard in many training circles the importance of correcting or providing disipline to a dog needing it in an "un-emotional" way. Most recently in our lessons on stock. I have heard MANY a well respected herding clinician describe the application of a correction this way, not being angry about it or taking things personaly. To make a correction on the behavior move on.

 

I thinkg it's not just the correction itself but the application of a correction and your sttitude when doing it that can make or break your success with getting results.

[hsnrs]

We also watch CM and VS. They are interesting programs and to see all these clueless owners is truly amazing. Especially the one with the girls who were roommates letting their dogs go in the condo they were renting. Makes me glad we live in the boonies and that our dogs are able to be dogs.

[herdcentral]

Oh, that's too funny!

 

It also made me think about snarling, snapping dogs we used to see at the last veterinary clinic I worked in. We essentially did the same thing to do treatments on dogs brought in for office visits - shots, check-ups, whatever. So were those dogs nasty? Were they terrified? Were they just spoiled? Or did they have "curly brains"? In most cases, I don't know, never having seen them outside the clinic. But no matter how convincingly "savage" they seemed, they were nearly all calmer when we were done, let them up and took off the muzzle.

I'm not saying that we cured dogs of aggressiveness, terror, bad manners or insanity. I'm just saying that they were not scarred by the treatment, and when they returned they were no worse, and in some cases they were much less "hysterical."

I'm no cheerleader for CM, I just don't think what I saw him do in that video was all that bad. Was it disturbing? Yes! But it is always disturbing to see an animal in that much distress. And one thing he said, as others have noted, was that it's important not to reflect back to the dog with anger, panic or fear.

 

 

I am afraid that kind of treatment at the vet just increased my fearfull dogs terror, she would simply shriek in fear and with each visit became increasingly more difficult to manage. Eventually because she had to be treated for elbow problems, my kindly vet suggested I bring her in on a daily basis to get to know the staff and I made the committment to take her on visits and staff gave her treats and tried to make it a good experience. Eventually we were able to give her treatment without too much fuss. We didnt even need the muzzle and she even submitted without much fuss to a treatment of accupuncture.

 

I think it very much depends on the dog and the nature of the dogs problem. I worked out what worked with this particular dog and in her case it was probaly not Cesars way.

[Pat W.]

I too have recently gotten NGC and was interested in watching CM as in the past I have watched VS. One of the things I dislike about both shows is that due to time constraints they edit out alot, they dont mention just how long CM or VS worked with the dog and owner. Within the show to the uneducated it seems that either "trainer/behavioris" is a miricle worker to effect such a quick change over an animal. I do see some things that I like with either CM or VS BUT would never ever take everything they say as gospel. I appriciate the calm demenor that CM presents, the education of the owner to a small extent by both. Although both CM and VS are talented in their own way they are entertainers first.

[Anda]

I like watching his show - haven't seen Victoria's in a while, not sure if it's still on. But I watched the episode that this thread was about, with the water obsessed Border Collie and I swear I didn't understand what he did to "fix" this obsession

[Smokjbc]

I like watching his show - haven't seen Victoria's in a while, not sure if it's still on. But I watched the episode that this thread was about, with the water obsessed Border Collie and I swear I didn't understand what he did to "fix" this obsession

 

Yes, the whole thing kind of had me scratching my head. Mostly he made the consequences of doing that behavior more than the dog thought it was worth (making him swim/go into the water- which he hated). Personally, I was thinking- you are at the beach- why not let the dog do it for a few minutes and not long enough to get water intoxication? Was Cesar even necessary for that?

[Anda]

Yes, the whole thing kind of had me scratching my head. Mostly he made the consequences of doing that behavior more than the dog thought it was worth (making him swim/go into the water- which he hated). Personally, I was thinking- you are at the beach- why not let the dog do it for a few minutes and not long enough to get water intoxication? Was Cesar even necessary for that?

 

Yeah, I think he tried to scare the dog from approaching the water... weird... I was very disappointed for staying awake the entire show for those few minutes of Border Collie

[bc friend]

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who did not get the "fix" - I didn't see the point in teaching the dog that going into the water was a negative since the dog already disliked being IN water and was basically trying to herd it away from him. I also didn't quite grasp the connection between taking the dog to herd sheep before going to the beach since it didn't appear that lack of exercise was an issue.

[Anda]

And the few sequences of him working sheep were pretty horrific Or the way he thought stopping at a farm on his way to the beach to pick up some discarded sheep fleece so that the dog could sniff it (without any sheep anywhere in sight on the beach - LOL) and somehow would trigger a reaction just because he's a herding dog? I mean, really?! He could have picked up a roadkill with the same success

 

I wanna reiterate that most of the time I enjoy watching him. However, herding breeds don't seem to be his forte