"Types" of dogs, Does physical type make a difference? Options

[Brandi]

I have a question for everyone, when someone says that a particular dog is cow hocked and the dog is not there to be seen do you visualize severe or mild?

Personally I visualize severe, imo a mild case is not enough to worry about.

I too visualize severe. When I was comparing a dog with cowhocks, I was picturing a dog standing with it's hocks together, toes pointed out etc... And was completely baffled by how people could think a cow hocked dog (a real cow hocked dog) could last as long as a "normal" dog....
Thanks for chiming in Debbie you are a breath of fresh air!

[juliepoudrier]

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but when the OP makes a blanket statement "cow hocks are bad" and doesn't say "severe cow hocks are bad" then I don't see how you can take offense when people disagree vehemently. There have been numerous discussions on this forum regarding hip dysplasia and hip laxity and how cow hocks (not severe) might actually *contribute in a positive way* to the necessary athleticism of a dog. I personally consider anything inside of straight up and down as cow hocks, so I would certainly mention degree when discussing whether it's a problem or not.

FWIW, the long lanky dog isn't generally having to turn barrels or beat some extremely tight time standard--it has to be able to control livestock in an efficient and workmanlike manner. For example, the dog who can turn on a dime isn't necessarily going to be a better or more sound worker than the dog who requires a little more space for turning. My dogs who are extremely fast actually seem to unsettle stock more than the more deliberate dogs, so compactness and speed may or may not be a positive attribute when taken together with other working characteristics.

J.

[Tea]

A couple of things come to mind while reading this. This interests me alot!

A race horse carries weight in front so the jockey sits over the center of balance, in front.

In classical riding the rider trains the horse over a period of years to carry weight over its hindquarters, this is to make the horse manuverable. So the rider sits back over the repositioned center of gravity. (Something that if you do not give the horse enough time and gymnastic excersises they will break down.)

In three day the horse must do both, Carry weight back as over a tight turn to a big upright, or forward as over a steeplechase brush.

In my old work there were horses with problems that we knew as pros that would not hold up to work. It mattered to us as this is how we made our living.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
On an aside comment-(One of my old coaches asked me once 'Which horses always win the Grand National? I replied, Uh..the fatest ones? He shook his head, He then answered, No the ones with no riders.')
------------------------------------------------

BUT- When I started working with the ponies from the rez alot of them were cow hocked, but none were tied in below the knee. Very few of these horses went lame. I guess the reason was in the wild they get eaten. They never had suspensory problems. (However I never competed them. To be honest they could go all day but were pretty slow. Although they worked pretty hard.)

I had someone once comment that one of the rescued non-releasable wolves was very cow hocked, Most wolves are. (This woman I found out later bred german shepherd dogs.)

Most wolves are close in front and toe out.

She told my intern that they were very poorly put together and why were they like that?

The intern said something to the effect that they were like that as nature designed them that way, the ones that did not stay sound died.

I shall have to think about my sled team and what I have learned through the years with their soundness

[Sue R]

You make some very good points, Tea. One thing I think is that the show ring sometimes makes assumptions that if a certain angulation is "good" in a certain species or breed, that it will be good in others. On the other hand, I think that sometimes the assumption is made that a certain appearance has merit, whether it truly does or does not (like the squished faces on certain breeds).

That is why the work proves not only the dogs' abilities in terms of stock sense, but also in terms of soundness, temperment, and health - dogs don't hold up if they don't have what it takes. And what it takes isn't always obvious or intuitive to humans, especially those that "judge" animals on appearance and with often arbitrary "standards".

What you said makes me think of my Thoroughbred mare, who is conformationally not well-built in certain aspects. But, she ran for six years on cheap tracks, and the only time in her life (of which I am aware) that she was unsound was the time she spent in a stable, muscled up, stalled for most of her days and nights. As the vet said when I bought her, "I'm not sure which three legs she's lame on." She's now about 26 years old, and hasn't had a lame day (except for minor hoof injuries) in the years I've had her out on pasture year-round and, now, living with the cows. And our pastures are uneven and require a horse to watch where she's going.

But, for her flaws, she's eager, athletic, and beautiful in motion - rather like a good Border Collie at work.

[Tea]

Thank you

The thing is about TB race horses, is they are not getting any faster?
Although standerbreds are, I read somewhere.

And I know this seems off the OP but in the TB racing world to do well do you have the fastest sound horse? Or the one who sells for the most money at the sales as a yearling?

Would a three-day horse stay sound on the rez chasing buffalo, as in the old days? Would it have the guts?

My upper level three day horses were were crossbreds, mostly TB with 1/8 Irish Draft, none were reg.

But one of them was an Anglo, and he did not stay sound, but he did well because he had courage. Then I retired him before he broke down. He was a gelding. Should he have been bred if he were a mare?

The Alaskan sled dogs, everyone just keeps track of which musher is breeding fast sound sled dogs.
Some are known to produce gee haw leaders. Although I asm told many mushers don't use real old time leaders anymore because they don't need them the way the races are set up. I don't race mine but I always tried to have one good leader as they are useful in the bush.

I am throwing thse things out there because this is stuff I know.

I could talk about the stockdogs I knew as a child, but this was long ago, And they never competed.

I don't know enough.

[Lenajo]

Love it Sue...just a few tweaks

"One thing I think is that the <people who forget the poor history breeding for form has> sometimes makes "assumptions" that if a certain angulation is "good" in a certain species or breed, that it will be good in others."

Then add: "What makes this worse is that these people then get rewarded in the show ring by other confused people, or by uneducated buyers of their pups and dogs that they teach to follow the same thought process"

I never thought I'd see the day when terms of conformation show dogs would be part of the "argued for" catagory on these Boards by people who profess to have primary interest in the work of the dogs.

Someone said "save it for the BCSA" to me when I objected to this, and again, you're wrong. The enemy that will destroy this working breed is within. It's each and every one of us who assumes we can cast an eye upon a dog's exterior and know what sort of work its suited and good for. That fallacy that we can, with the flick of an "educated" eye, know what dogs will last to old age working and who won't.

And those that uses species comparison - I don't get it at all. The people that are/have worked both species to a high level tell you why it won't work, but you persist.

It's not even about being right and wrong here, it's about getting back on the same page. That is, if your interest is really what working dogs *do*, and not what they look like.

[Sue R]

Thanks, Wendy. I appreciate your tweaking.

Racehorses - that's an issue. How many fast horses that have produced fast offspring have also passed on unsoundness? Speed may be paramount and without it, the breed would be going nowhere, but soundness is right there with speed as a necessity. Except, in this day and age, when a horse is sold for bunches of money as a youngster, based on breeding; trained to race as a youngster; considered successful if it wins as a youngster; and moved quickly into the breeding pool while it's still a youngster, without ever having the chance to prove it has real soundness and longevity.

And then who is surprised when a Ruffian is produced, is outstandlingly fast, but is unsound (cracked/broken bone as a two-year-old) and breaks down (as a three-year-old)? Some pre-eminent sires have produced some fast, classy, but unsound offspring. One good reason for limiting the number of offspring a Thoroughbred sire may have and be registered but still, his influence may persist for generations, for better or worse.

And with regards to mares of any breed, I used to work at a stable. Three mares that I know of were "retired" for unsoundness issues. All three were "retired" with the idea of using them for breeding. Now, where's the sense in that?

Back to my original question - I think the comments made were based on personal experience. People who did not find certain types of dogs to "hold up" for them or to "work out" for them. I was concerned about soundness being a possible issue in a longer, leggier, lankier dog like Dan is compared to a more compact dog - all other issues being similar. I also wondered why a person with extensive knowledge and experience would feel a certain type of dog would not amount to much in terms of a working/trial dog. What was that based on? Or was it a groundless prejudice?

I'm glad I asked. It's been a thought-provoking discussion.

[NorthfieldNick]

If I had the chance to buy a horse with conformation like Nick, would I? No way! Nick is long-backed, high behind, and cow hocked, and he cross-canters almost 100% of the time. Recipe for an uncomfortable ride and a lame horse. Also a recipe for a really nice stockdog, with the addition of brains, of course (which Nick has plenty of).

I wonder if environment has something to do with people's preferences. In a hot climate, it seems like a longer, leaner, smooth coated dog would do better, whereas in a cold climate, a stockier, heavier (but not overweight-heavy), rough coated dog would be a better choice. I know a lot of this can be controlled through management, but if you'd had a stockier dog overheat in a hot climate, and a lanky one not, given the chance to replace one with a dog of equal working ability, you'd probably take another smoothie. Even though this is based on a sample size of two, people go by what they know, what's right in front of them.

I prefer to look at a longer, leaner dog, but if it can't work, I'll take the short, stocky dog that can.

[Lenajo]

People who did not find certain types of dogs to "hold up" for them or to "work out" for them

Who was that? I heard a bunch of preferences based on assumptions and cross species comparison, most of which were from people who haven't actually worked multiple physical types of dog from pup to old age. In fact some of the most adament opinions were from people who haven't even trained a stockdog to completion (Open or comparable) yet at all.

They are certainly welcome to their opinions - it's a free world - but somebody telling long term stockdog people about how a dogs hocks and topline should look for working soundness when they haven't actually managed to train an open or comparible farm dog even once better expect disagreement. We just aren't a passive group....

Those that voiced they had little to no preference for these conformational "essentials" (as defined by those mentioned above) in their dogs appear to the people that have been working them the longest and the hardest.

Everybody has superficial preferences in dogs. I've said it before and will again. It's human nature. If I could walk into a little of pups that were equal and know I'd get a smooth tri with big ears like my old Lena I would grab it with both hands. But things are rarely equal, and basing your dog selections on what the lineage or individual is functionally *doing* well at what you plan to do, and whether that suits you is a proven better bet.

Doing, not viewing, proves stockdogs.

[Sue R]

Back to my original question - I think the comments made were based on personal experience. People who did not find certain types of dogs to "hold up" for them or to "work out" for them.

Sorry, I must have been confusing in the way I wrote this. It was not with reference to anyone who posted here, it was the comments of the people who raised the questions/thoughts with me elsewhere originally.

In terms of the comment made to me or read by me elsewhere, it was a well-known and respected UK handler/trainer (with decades of experience) who commented on the long, leggy, lanky build of dog not holding up over time and work. The comment made to me about a particular type (again, long, leggy, lanky, and with a long tail - just like my Dan) not generally being up to the job, was made by a nationally-known and respected trainer (with decades of experience, too).

So, I wondered if anyone here had experience or something to share with regards to both these opinions. Which, I think, are just that - opinions based on individuals' experiences or prejudices.

[Lana]

Sue, i would not worry about Dan.

Kell is as big and lanky as they come. He can trail cows 20 miles or sort sheep all day and never take a lame step. You can NOT judge the heart/desire/drive of a dog from his build!

Blue is cow hocked and has the worst hip my vet had seen in 20 years, and at almost 10 he can still do a days work well.

I would also not discount the effect a strong bond between dog and handler has on the dogs ability to carry on through tough conditions, day after day.


Lana

[Lenajo]

I too would be interesting to question him further. Like my (granted much less than his) experience with red dogs from a particular line, he may have found a line in which the LLLL type did not suit him or matched up with other faults (lack of stamina for one)

Most of the experienced handlers have preferred lines - and after a while they get really good at spotting what parts of the line the suit them come packaged as. It works enough that people keep trying it (or are we just hard headed? LOL), but it's also why you also meet a number of old handlers that have spent many years searching unsuccessfully by looks for a repeat of the dog they adored.

Remember the farmer with the good dog Pete, and was featured as part of an AP show on Border Collies selecting "Repete" from a litter based on his similarities to his sire Pete? Emotions rule us all at times - more even then proven success of opposite ideas. (I asked about Repete years ago...and got a shrug from local handlers about how he turned out. "Nothing much" I was told (and if you know differently I would love to hear - it was a cute pup)

Emotional selection aside, there is validity to superficial selection based on experience within a bloodline. Definately more likely to suceed that than window shopping stockdogs by turn of hocks and lay of shoulder compared to horse standards.

Sorry, I must have been confusing in the way I wrote this. It was not with reference to anyone who posted here, it was the comments of the people who raised the questions/thoughts with me elsewhere originally.

In terms of the comment made to me or read by me elsewhere, it was a well-known and respected UK handler/trainer (with decades of experience) who commented on the long, leggy, lanky build of dog not holding up over time and work. The comment made to me about a particular type (again, long, leggy, lanky, and with a long tail - just like my Dan) not generally being up to the job, was made by a nationally-known and respected trainer (with decades of experience, too).

So, I wondered if anyone here had experience or something to share with regards to both these opinions. Which, I think, are just that - opinions based on individuals' experiences or prejudices.

[Sue R]

Thanks, Lana, I would never discount the heart and work ethic. Plus there are the less tangibles, like a fit dog that compensates for physical attributes (like hip issues) with muscle and fitness.

Without heart or desire, the best dog otherwise will never even be a mediocre dog.

Can you guess we are getting closer to getting Dan started and I am getting to be a bundle of nerves? I feel like a backstage mother who's child is about to start dance lessons or something.

[kelpiegirl]

I think we need more pics of Dan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sue R]

My getting photos of Dan with my slow camera (I do need a new camera) is like trying to herd cats. It doesn't produce very good results. But I try...

And how about your Dan?

[Debbie Meier]

Isn't Dan at sheepcamp??? Any reports, how is he doing? When does he come home?

[Sue R]

Isn't Dan at sheepcamp??? Any reports, how is he doing? When does he come home?

My Dan is not yet out to be started, or even tried on sheep. That will happen within the next month or so. I can't speak for any other Dan .

[kelpiegirl]

These photos were taken at 9 months, Danny is 10 months now, and I suspect he wears spurs, and a cowboy hat now