Jump to content


Photo

Training an Independent dog


8 replies to this topic

#1 gdomino

gdomino

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:iowa

Posted 27 July 2009 - 01:49 PM

I have a year old female who is very independent. She will come happily when called, but to try and teach her anything is a battle of wills.
She has a terrific desire to work, presents a presence that the sheep respect with no gripping. I have never had a dog that I couldn't coax a "lie down" out of them within a few days with treats. She just stands there and stares off in another direction or at me and does not respond. Her mother and father are very biddable, I have a brother and sister that are coming along wonderfully. It is embarrassing to say but other than getting some pats and scratches and her food dish filled she seems to care less if me or the other dogs are around.


Any suggestions would be greatly welcomed.

#2 desertranger

desertranger

    Everything in the desert stick, stinks, bites or stings.

  • Registered Users
  • 1,606 posts
  • Location:Sonora and Mojave Desert
  • Interests:Border Collies, rock climbing, flying, sailing, camping, hiking, Ham radio. Write about the desert in Sunrunner magazine and teach outdoor skill classes.

Posted 27 July 2009 - 07:49 PM

Juvenile Delinquent. I have the same problems with Jin at 8 months. My trainer says more than a little of it is attributable to age.

don't know what else to say. I've had it crop up on occasion.
Together we, Ranger and Jin.

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Visit me at:
Desert Bandanna - Nature and Survival guide.
The O'blogitory

#3 ziggzmom

ziggzmom

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 181 posts

Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:52 AM

I have never had a dog that I couldn't coax a "lie down" out of them within a few days with treats. She just stands there and stares off in another direction or at me and does not respond.


Hi,

Is there any possibility there is some type of physical discomfort when she does a down? Could her back or hips be painful?

Janet

#4 gdomino

gdomino

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:iowa

Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:54 AM

Hi,

Is there any possibility there is some type of physical discomfort when she does a down? Could her back or hips be painful?

Janet



Janet,

She physically in perfect shape. She is the quickest and fastest dog I have ever had. There isn't a sheep on the place that she can't outrun in the open or over and through obstacles. Its that she seems to not care if its not part of her agenda.

The reason I posted is that I was hoping someone with the experience of Bob or Carol or one of the other experts would have some suggestions about getting control of her without breaking her spirit.

Carol knows the lines this dog is from, maybe I should try and contact her.

She handles being on a lead fine, she will respond to my movements when we moving around the sheep.

thanks for asking.

Gregg

#5 Laurae

Laurae

    i'd rather be working my dogs...

  • Registered Users
  • 3,183 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Colorado

Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:11 AM

You posted this in the correct section, Gregg. Bob was the only one who should have answered your post :rolleyes: , since it is in the Ask an Expert section and Bob is the current expert. If you're patient, I am sure he will see it shortly...

Cheers,
Laura
5120876952_de8afa8164.jpg
Poetry in motion with Sophie, Taz, Meg, Ike, and puppy Gus!
And Craig waiting at the bridge.

See profiles of many top competitors from the 2011 National Sheepdog Finals in Carbondale, Colorado
 


#6 gdomino

gdomino

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:iowa

Posted 28 July 2009 - 12:00 PM

You posted this in the correct section, Gregg. Bob was the only one who should have answered your post :rolleyes: , since it is in the Ask an Expert section and Bob is the current expert. If you're patient, I am sure he will see it shortly...



Thanks Laurae.

I didn't mean to imply that I was impatient. I was thinking out load and shouldn't have. Its a busy time of year and good advice/knowledge from the experts that graciously take time from their busy schedules to participate in this forum is priceless and very appreciated.

#7 RMSBORDERCOLLIES

RMSBORDERCOLLIES

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 369 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 July 2009 - 02:04 PM

I have a year old female who is very independent. She will come happily when called, but to try and teach her anything is a battle of wills.
She has a terrific desire to work, presents a presence that the sheep respect with no gripping. I have never had a dog that I couldn't coax a "lie down" out of them within a few days with treats. She just stands there and stares off in another direction or at me and does not respond. Her mother and father are very biddable, I have a brother and sister that are coming along wonderfully. It is embarrassing to say but other than getting some pats and scratches and her food dish filled she seems to care less if me or the other dogs are around.
Any suggestions would be greatly welcomed.


Hi there. Sorry I haven't got back to you sooner but I just returned from a very good trial in Alberta. I would really like to have a little more information in the form of some examples of what she is doing on and off sheep, when is it that you say she doesn't respond, is she bonded with you and all that kind of stuff. Have you had her to sheep and done any basics with her like starting her on outruns etc? Is she refusing to work or is she confused? Does she stop when you tell her to lie down or just keep on going? Give me some examples of her actions both on and off sheep and also how she is housed and how much time she spends with you away from working. It sounds like she has not turned on to stock yet but I do need more information before I can help you with her. Get back to me soon as I will be home for a while now. Bob

#8 gdomino

gdomino

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 4 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:iowa

Posted 28 July 2009 - 04:50 PM

Hi there. Sorry I haven't got back to you sooner but I just returned from a very good trial in Alberta. I would really like to have a little more information in the form of some examples of what she is doing on and off sheep, when is it that you say she doesn't respond, is she bonded with you and all that kind of stuff. Have you had her to sheep and done any basics with her like starting her on outruns etc? Is she refusing to work or is she confused? Does she stop when you tell her to lie down or just keep on going? Give me some examples of her actions both on and off sheep and also how she is housed and how much time she spends with you away from working. It sounds like she has not turned on to stock yet but I do need more information before I can help you with her. Get back to me soon as I will be home for a while now. Bob



No worries...its a busy time of year.

I've tried to answer everything.

is she bonded ….

I’ve handled her like I have her brother and sister. Tried to spend equal amount of quality time with them(individually) away from sheep. She’s always had a different attitude than the others. Very independent…always doing her own thing. She’s not a clingy dog. She was one of the most handled pups in the litter because she was so cute.

She’ll come when called if the sheep aren’t visible. She will walk with me on lead without hassle. She will stay with off lead again as long as the sheep aren’t around.

Have you had her to sheep and done any basics with her like starting her on outruns etc?

When I have tried to have her in with the sheep it’s a speed fest…nothing exists but the sheep. The brother and sister I have, I started them on sheep without a down and we have been progressing nicely. I started them with the 2 sheep inside a small round pen 16 feet in diameter and them on the outside. She responded well like her brother and sister so then I moved to an 80’ round with 3-5 sheep. The brother and sister responded to my voice or movements. Bon went off like a firecracker. To get her attention I have to get in her way and be really forceful. So I decided to try and put a down on her so maybe I could have some type of control.

Is she refusing to work or is she confused?
Not an issue of wanting to work sheep…wants it on her terms.

Does she stop when you tell her to lie down or just keep on going?
I have to get in her way and be really forceful to get her attention.

how she is housed and how much time she spends with you away from working.

Since 7 weeks they have each had their own kennel away from the sheep or any possibility of seeing them.

I spend more time with her than I do her bother and sister. I work in town so a little time ~1 hour in the morning with everybody just exercising. I get her out as soon as I get home and will spend a good hour individually with her at night away from sheep. 4 hours total with everybody. The weekends I try to take her with me in the truck and have her around as I work as much as possible.

Maybe I’m not her cup of tea.

I don’t won’t do anything to ruin her.

thanks

Gregg

#9 RMSBORDERCOLLIES

RMSBORDERCOLLIES

    Senior Member

  • Registered Users
  • 369 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 July 2009 - 08:52 PM

No worries...its a busy time of year.

I've tried to answer everything.

is she bonded ….

I’ve handled her like I have her brother and sister. Tried to spend equal amount of quality time with them(individually) away from sheep. She’s always had a different attitude than the others. Very independent…always doing her own thing. She’s not a clingy dog. She was one of the most handled pups in the litter because she was so cute.

She’ll come when called if the sheep aren’t visible. She will walk with me on lead without hassle. She will stay with off lead again as long as the sheep aren’t around.

Have you had her to sheep and done any basics with her like starting her on outruns etc?

When I have tried to have her in with the sheep it’s a speed fest…nothing exists but the sheep. The brother and sister I have, I started them on sheep without a down and we have been progressing nicely. I started them with the 2 sheep inside a small round pen 16 feet in diameter and them on the outside. She responded well like her brother and sister so then I moved to an 80’ round with 3-5 sheep. The brother and sister responded to my voice or movements. Bon went off like a firecracker. To get her attention I have to get in her way and be really forceful. So I decided to try and put a down on her so maybe I could have some type of control.

Is she refusing to work or is she confused?
Not an issue of wanting to work sheep…wants it on her terms.

Does she stop when you tell her to lie down or just keep on going?
I have to get in her way and be really forceful to get her attention.

how she is housed and how much time she spends with you away from working.

Since 7 weeks they have each had their own kennel away from the sheep or any possibility of seeing them.

I spend more time with her than I do her bother and sister. I work in town so a little time ~1 hour in the morning with everybody just exercising. I get her out as soon as I get home and will spend a good hour individually with her at night away from sheep. 4 hours total with everybody. The weekends I try to take her with me in the truck and have her around as I work as much as possible.

Maybe I’m not her cup of tea.

I don’t won’t do anything to ruin her.

thanks

Gregg


That's great information Gregg. What I'm seeing is a good example of what breeding is all about. We don't produce clones, obviously. Yes, she is independant but that is not a bad thing. From what you tell me she is quite strong but not grippy and that is a good thing. When you block her to get her to stop that is what you need to be doing. This dog is going to be a very important learning experience for you so put your all into her. It is nice to have them biddable but, they are not all going to be that way and, with the proper type of training and handling she will probably be better than the biddable ones. You will not have the easy and enjoyable experience of seeing things coming together quickly right now but once you establish yourself as the absolute leader, you will see her start to progress very quickly. My suggestion right now with her is to go to the long line with her and establish a good stop. I would suggest that a "lie down" is a good way to start but if she starts to fight you too much with it AND IT APPEARS THAT IT IS NOT HER FAVORITE POSITION, then go for the "stand there" or whatever command you want to use to get her to stop. It must be perfect every time and done on sheep and then you can start to work with her on other things with the sheep.
Take her to sheep in your larger pen or in a small one acre field and work along the fence with her on the long line. This line should be a minimum of 50 feet but preferably 100 feet. It should be attached to her collar which is tight enough that it won't slip off. Get a larger group of sheep about 8 or 9 if possible or at least as many as you can if you have less and walk the dog in behind the sheep along the fence just ssshhhing her quietly and and as she starts to break to chase or push them too hard tell her to "lie down" and jerk the rope hard enough that it makes her stop. Don't let her go around the sheep if she tries that because we don't want to interfere with her desire to gather. Then walk up to her and get between her and the sheep and push your self with your hand or hands in the air and go towards her and tell her to "stay there"in a very forceful manner. You are not asking her to do anything, you are TELLING her to do it. Walk away towards the sheep and keep telling her to "stay there" and when you get about 10 yards away go back to her and get hold of your line and quietly ssshhhh her on to the sheep again. If she walks on nicely go with her, quietly dropping back behind her so you are getting a little further away all the time. If you see her starting to show signs of breaking then lie her down again right away by JERKING the rope hard and giving her the command again. Once again go between her and the sheep, telling her to "lie down, stay there", walk around a little between her and the sheep every now and then reinforcing your control and telling her "lie down,. stay there". The reason I use both commands is that they are two commands, "lie down" being the act of going to ground, "stay there" being the act of staying where you are stopped. You will eventually use this and change it to "stand there" which will come easily at that time once you have trained the "stay there" which is easy to do. You must be diligent and firm and not accept anything other than that good quick stop. This is a dog which, once you have her under control will be able to do pretty well anything for you, but if not under control will be nothing but a futile headache. She is the type of dog that will demand that you be the leader and she will make it tough enough for you that you will realise that you must become the leader. It will not be easy and, at times, it will be frustrating but it will all be worth it. And when you are done and out at the post with all that confidence, you and she will appreciate all the hard work and time spent to get there. You DO have an individual that is not like the others. Don't worry about getting her to go around to the head of the sheep right now. You are not teaching her to drive, you're teaching her to stop and once you have the stop you can start teaching her to gather which is your next step. Try this for a while, get the stop on the dog and we'll go on from there. Remember, you are the master, the boss, the leader, that other fellow up there, etc., etc. I am not talking about being a tyrant. I am talking about being demanding and firm but kind at all times and kind does not mean that your dog can disobey you. Get back to me in a few days when you have the stop and we can go on from there........Bob



Reply to this topic



  

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright: All posts and images on this site are protected by copyright, and may not be reproduced or distributed in any way without permission. Banner photo courtesy of Denise Wall, ©2009 CDWall. For further information, contact info@bordercollie.org.