62 replies to this topic

[Caroline Reichard]

Some people say "soda," some people say "pop." Some are (or hope to be) "rich," others want to be "wealthy." To the trained linguist, your vocabulary identifies you, just as it did Eliza Doolittle to Henry Higgins.

For better or worse, when a person "goes herding with their BC," they have very clearly identified themselves to those who see bigger fields with no fences to protect them from mistakes, to confine their ambitions, or to make a mockery of their skills. And the identification is not a fortunate one since "herding" is such a dimished form of the work that goes on in those big fields.

Some people with a lot of credentialing and/or history in the stockdog world have been very politely telling others of you that "herding with your BC" is offensive to the point of rudeness, and they have gone to great lengths to exlain why.

If you don't mind being identified with an arena sport with delusions of legitimacy, well, good for you. You can talk all you like about etymology and how words don't matter, but to those of us who remember the birth of the AKC herding culture, you might as well be cussin' in front of grandma. Go tell her that words don't matter. She might pretend to accept your explanation, but she sure as hell won't ask you into the parlor in front of company.

[SoloRiver]

Some are (or hope to be) "rich," others want to be "wealthy."

I like Chris Rock's explanation of this distinction.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=WWERzwbobOk

(Do not click if you have a problem with four letter words, or lack a sense of humor, or take yourself too seriously.)

An opposing viewpoint:

http://www.post-gaze.../319841-153.stm

(This link is safe to click on if you are a more sensitive type.)

Back on topic: I say "working" and "I am going to work my dogs on sheep" and things like that. Probably because I have never been involved in AKC or AHBA and have never picked up the "herding" lingo, although I am also comfortable conversing with people who use that language.

There are a lot of people out there in dog sports land who are conscientious, well-meaning, and respectful of working traditions and would probably make fine "converts" to the world of working Border Collies, but they get scared off by what is perceived as an inhospitable attitude by "herding people." They are actually afraid to come to sheepdog trials because they think people will look down on them and be rude to them. I understand why this conversation is taking place but I am not sure that it is always constructive. I mean, the type of people who are the most sensitive to these kinds of things are also probably the type of people who are most respectful and thoughtful and maybe the type of people who we should try not to scare off.

I am a weekend warrior (sorry to anyone offended by that term) by which I mean I don't have sheep and my dogs don't have to work for a living and when they do work, they work someone else's sheep. What we do is basically pointless from the viewpoint of animal husbandry. We may have sheep someday, but we don't have any now and probably won't have any for quite a while. I respect the tradition we participate in and never went the title route because I wanted to experience the real thing, not some sad facsimile that is so far from the real thing that show-bred Corgis can participate in it. But when it comes down to it, no matter how respectful or thoughtful I am, the reason we work sheep (not that we get to do it so often these days -- ever since I finished grad school my free time has been considerably curtailed) is for fun. My dogs enjoy it, I enjoy it, and I enjoy how much my dogs seem to get out of it. I also enjoy knowing the people I have gotten to know through working dogs.

I am not sure there is really a bright line on this issue in terms of right vs. wrong, valid vs. invalid, etc. Or if there is, I guess by a really strict reading, I and my dogs are on the wrong side of it.

[PennyT]

"I am a weekend warrior (sorry to anyone offended by that term) by which I mean I don't have sheep and my dogs don't have to work for a living and when they do work, they work someone else's sheep. What we do is basically pointless from the viewpoint of animal husbandry."

I'm not offended by the term in the least, and I don't make the distinction based on husbandry. I make the distinction based on the track record of the AKC, its breed clubs,and breeders in changing breeds for the worse.

[PSmitty]

Thank you for that post, Melanie.

(I'll check out the links later...I bet Chris Rock's is hilarious!)

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

Regarding the terminology people use to refer to the activities in which they are involved with their dogs, Caroline wrote:

"If you don't mind being identified with an arena sport with delusions of legitimacy, well, good for you. You can talk all you like about etymology and how words don't matter, but to those of us who remember the birth of the AKC herding culture, you might as well be cussin' in front of grandma. Go tell her that words don't matter. She might pretend to accept your explanation, but she sure as hell won't ask you into the parlor in front of company."

This analogy is simply too funny and oh so true! Way to go, Caroline!

To get back to Angel's original query, here is my shovelful about her epileptic dog working livestock. I, too, have a dog that currently requires medication to remain seizure-free, and the drug's effects cause not only physical limitations, but mental impairment, as well. My dog is a well trained sheepdog, and even when she seems not to be affected physically, she is definitely affected mentally by the drugs. Because of the drugs, her confidence level is reduced, her mental stamina is decreased, and her overall cognitive ability is impaired. So, even though Angel's dog seems to acclimate to the increases in her seizure medication physically, it is highly unlikely that her dog is unaffected mentally by the drugs. So, my suggestion to Angel is to enjoy her dog, but without pursuing working sheepdog activities.

Regards to all,
nancy

[Caroline Reichard]

Nancy wrote: "This analogy is simply too funny and oh so true! Way to go, Caroline!"

Thanks, Nancy, I was just in the mood to try and channnel the voice of an old friend, now dead, who I thought would surely have an opinion on this thread.

Nancy wrote: "To get back to Angel's original query, here is my shovelful about her epileptic dog working livestock. I, too, have a dog that currently requires medication to remain seizure-free, and the drug's effects cause not only physical limitations, but mental impairment, as well. .. my suggestion to Angel is to enjoy her dog, but without pursuing working sheepdog activities."

I have also had a talented dog with epilepsy. I had to put her down because we couldn't control her seizures, but before that I got a full dose of what working a dog on seizure meds was like. I would also echo Nacy and Amelia's suggestion to enjoy your dog but not to start working livestock.

[Bordermix]

A little off topic here but I have dog (non border collie) that is epileptic, is in fly ball and is great at it! He loves going to fly ball. My vet suggests that life remain as normal as possible, and if the meds are working, there is no reason to keep him from a sport he loves! If his epilepsy gets worse in the future, we will, of course, think of his health, first. But for now, we both enjoy fly ball and there is no reason to stop.

[Pippin's person]

One of the first times we brought our dogs to see sheep, I was working with Pippin in the round pen. At one point, the trainer called out, "That little bitch needs to slow down or there's going to be trouble."

I like to use this example when I talk to my students about word meanings (like Anna, I'm also a linguist) because the first referent that most students think of for "bitch" is a human female and they also see it as a "bad" word. Of course, as soon as I offer a little bit of context for the comment, students immediately get that the trainer was talking about a dog not a person and they immediately see it as a perfectly fine, non-taboo word.

If you pay attention to who uses the term "bitch" when referring to dogs, it's almost always people who are deeply involved in some kind of pursuit that involves dogs--in my experience, it's very rare for "regular" pet owners to refer to their dog as a "bitch" and personally, I feel like a poser if I try to use it to refer to a dog.

The first dictionary meaning in the Oxford English Dictionary (and Merriam-Webster, and I'd wager virtually any English dictionary) for "bitch" is "The female of the dog." But, that's clearly not the meaning most English speakers have as primary anymore. No amount of claiming to be correct or appealing to the dictionary can change that--meaning is always the property of a community of users.

That's part of what makes the kinds of discussions going on here with respect to "herd" so interesting--It's not just that language is always changing (which of course it is), but also that communities of users actively engage in (as we see here in real time) the business of working out what words can/should/must mean. It's fascinating because these discussion point out how connected to culture language really is. I also think it points out (as do most discussions about language) that our linguistic choices are never neutral--like Caroline and Penny both said, our choices link us immediately with particular groups, particular points of view or particular persuasions whether we wish them to or not.

From the beginning of our journey learning to handle livestock, our trainers have used the term "work". So, that's what we use too--in the context of learning the culture, we also learned the associated vocabulary used by the people in that culture. The people I hear use the term "herd" are people not specifically involved in practical farm work/open USBCHA trialling, etc. Of course, that's the vast majority of people. Still, I find that "herd" users understand me perfectly well when I talk about "working with my dogs."

So, I find it easiest to think along the lines of "cross-cultural" communication. I've found that I'm much more persuasive with "herd"-users if I talk about the differences between the tasks asked of the dogs than if I talk about why they should use "work" rather than "herd." In other words, I find that as I talk more about the context of "working" vs. "herding", people become much more interested in finding out about the "work."

ETA: Not to claim that I know all that much about the work--just that I also worry, like Melanie, that folks who might be pretty sympathetic get turned off by the semantic discussion before they really have a chance to understand the cultural context of the issues involved.

[MagRam]

One of the first times we brought our dogs to see sheep, I was working with Pippin in the round pen. At one point, the trainer called out, "That little bitch needs to slow down or there's going to be trouble."

I like to use this example when I talk to my students about word meanings (like Anna, I'm also a linguist and teach at a university) because the first referent that most students think of for "bitch" is a human female and they also see it as a "bad" word. Of course, as soon as I offer a little bit of context for the comment, students immediately get that the trainer was talking about a dog not a person and they immediately see it as a perfectly fine, non-taboo word.

If you pay attention to who uses the term "bitch" when referring to dogs, it's almost always people who are deeply involved in some kind of pursuit that involves dogs--in my experience, it's very rare for "regular" pet owners to refer to their dog as a "bitch" and personally, I feel like a poser if I try to use it to refer to a dog.

The first dictionary meaning in the Oxford English Dictionary (and Merriam-Webster, and I'd wager virtually any English dictionary) for "bitch" is "The female of the dog." But, that's clearly not the meaning most English speakers have as primary anymore. No amount of claiming to be correct or appealing to the dictionary can change that--meaning is always the property of a community of users.

That's part of what makes the kinds of discussions going on here with respect to "herd" so interesting--It's not just that language is always changing (which of course it is), but also that communities of users actively engage in (as we see here in real time) the business of working out what words can/should/must mean. It's fascinating because these discussion point out how connected to culture language really is. I also think it points out (as do most discussions about language) that our linguistic choices are never neutral--like Caroline and Penny both said, our choices link us immediately with particular groups, particular points of view or particular persuasions whether we wish them to or not.

From the beginning of our journey learning to handle livestock, our trainers have used the term "work". So, that's what we use too--in the context of learning the culture, we also learned the associated vocabulary used by the people in that culture. The people I hear use the term "herd" are people not specifically involved in practical farm work/open USBCHA trialling, etc. Of course, that's the vast majority of people. Still, I find that "herd" users understand me perfectly well when I talk about "working with my dogs."

So, I find it easiest to think along the lines of "cross-cultural" communication. I've found that I'm much more persuasive with "herd"-users if I talk about the differences between the tasks asked of the dogs than if I talk about why they should use "work" rather than "herd." In other words, I find that as I talk more about the context of "working" vs. "herding", people become much more interested in finding out about the "work."

ETA: Not to claim that I know all that much about the work--just that I also worry, like Melanie, that folks who might be pretty sympathetic get turned off by the semantic discussion before they really have a chance to understand the cultural context of the issues involved.

OK I give. I just got back from working my bitch. And so I will use the term most seem to prefer. Too busy working the dog on sheep to coontinue the discussion.

[SoloRiver]

A little off topic here but I have dog (non border collie) that is epileptic, is in fly ball and is great at it! He loves going to fly ball. My vet suggests that life remain as normal as possible, and if the meds are working, there is no reason to keep him from a sport he loves! If his epilepsy gets worse in the future, we will, of course, think of his health, first. But for now, we both enjoy fly ball and there is no reason to stop.

Sure, but flyball and herding or working or whatever you want to call it are basically apples and zebras. There's no comparison. If your dog can't concentrate so well or loses focus in flyball, which is about as far from a complex activity as one could do with a Border Collie, the worst thing that happens is he'll be kinda slow or he'll drop the ball before he gets back across the line. Yes, I have done flyball, and yes, I actually think it is very fun -- but it is practically mindless and the fastest dogs operate as robots following a simple routine that is so ingrained it has essentially become muscle memory.

Working stock is infinitely more complex, and requires a lot more from the dog mentally. Trying to work a dog who's having an off day is an exercise in frustration for everyone involved, particularly if the idea is to progress over time.

I think that individual dogs respond differently to seizure meds and that it MAY be possible for a dog being treated for epilepsy to be able to work stock, but never having tried to do so I don't know for sure. I do know that attempting to work my dog who is on behavioral meds when he was OFF his meds was not successful. It is kind of an opposite situation -- he needs the drugs, and is at his best when he is on the meds, and he is anxious and "fuzzy" when he is off of them. I think that trying to work a dog who is on seizure meds might be kind of like trying to work my dog when he is med-free and if that's the case, I wouldn't do it.

[bsms99]

Just FWIW - a former college roommate of mine has a sheep ranch in Utah...mixed sheep and cattle, now. He has a few Border Collies used by his sheep herders. They use them herding sheep in the mountains - hundreds of them on open range.

Admittedly, he doesn't use the dogs at a very high level. He only had one sheepherder who knew how to use dogs well, and that guy quit after 3 years. Still, he'd be very surprised to learn his sheep herders aren't herding sheep, and that his dogs aren't either! And his dogs haven't seen the inside of a house, let alone the inside of a show ring.

That said, he'd laugh his butt off if you asked him if he was 'going herding'. If I asked him if he was 'going sheeping', he'd think I had lost my mind. He talks about moving sheep, or bringing them in, etc. There is a lot to be said for not taking offense where none is intended...but also for learning the lingo of those you wish to associate with.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

So whence comes this statement?

"She was too soft for the intense training to trial, but she could herd sheep off the hill."

That's not quite word for word as I don't have the book in front of me. But you'll find the phrase herd sheep in there. I just read it but I've misplaced the book - we're in the middle of moving and my house is a disaster.

So how will you assume this person is aligned in the world of tradition versus hobby herding?

That phrase is from a McCollough book that was originally printed in the 40s. The man quoted there wasn't a name that was familiar to me but I'm reasonably sure he had no ties to either AHBA or AKC venues.

[Caroline Reichard]

So whence comes this statement?

"She was too soft for the intense training to trial, but she could herd sheep off the hill."

But Becca, this is being disingenuous. When some old man walks out from the time portal hidden in the mountains of Scotland (and I know that the Land That Time Forgot is up there somewhere), or a Basque shepherd rides out of a hidden gully in Utah trailing 2000 sheep, I am not going to tell him anything because I will be too busy listening to what he has to say to run my mouth off at him. But when a bright and shiny middle aged woman much like myself (except probably cleaner) drives up in an SUV w/ her dog wearing a seat belt to "do some herding with her Border," I suspect I know where she learned to talk like that.

[PennyT]

I think we had the herds in the west discussion before somewhere. Linda Whedbee wrote an interesting post on why she doesn't use the terminology.

Of course, we have herds in the American west. Someone hired on is often referred to as a "herd," short for sheepherder.

I wouldn't dream of using a term to describe myself that is a job description of caring for a band of between 600 and 1200 (large outfits often subdivide down to those numbers). I've never owned more than 130 sheep at one time or hired out as sheepherder, and I venture to speculate that few who refer to learning to work their dogs as "herding" have either.

An amusing twist to the subject is that most AKC types would call sheepherding in the American west "tending."

[bsms99]

... you might as well be cussin' in front of grandma. Go tell her that words don't matter...

Another lesson from Grandma: 'You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.'

I have a lot of animosity towards the AKC. My Aussie pup reminds me daily of what the AKC can do to a herding breed...or stockdog, if you prefer. 30 years ago, Aussies were good dogs to use with cattle. The pup I got from a rescue is a fine family pup, but shows no sign of working ability. However, it would be more productive to teach the AKC types what a real working dog can do, rather than jump in their chili over terminology. Encourage them to attend trials, or read a book or view a DVD about real working dogs.

I'm an 'outer fringe' type of Border Collie owner. I had a great mixed dog, and a great purebred - both used as family pets. The purebred had one chance in her life to work sheep (she did great!) and one to work cattle (she did OK). I've known a few ranchers who used dogs, but none who used them for anything complex. I like watching the dogs work, but I also like watching a good working Lab. I've read books, but I own no sheep and don't plan on buying any. I have a lot of books about dogs of all sorts, but will never be a breeder.

I like reading posts here, but I also get tired of how sensitive people are to words that have more meaning for them than for others. "OMG, Joe said 'Borders'!" "OMG, someone said AKC without spitting first!" I understand the feelings, but it is really counterproductive to attack folks who could be made into friends and supporters. Border Collies (or should I say Collies and assume everyone knows I'm not referring to Lassie?) have a reputation for being a bit standoff-ish, but the owners...damn! I think some owners are kind of 'reactive'. Converting AKC-types would be better for the future of the breed than antagonizing them.

[stockdogranch]

All well and good, but the ACK folks (generally speaking) don't WANT to know any differently. They know all there is to know about "herding" with whichever "herding breed" they have, and that's that. Rather than admit that perhaps they have dogs that might have worked stock some generations ago, but now just chase (which is an entirely different word than "work") a few dog-broke sheep around an arena, they continue to put down working bred BCs, going on and on how "those people" either don't do health checks (hips, eyes, elbows, you-name-it) before breeding, or all "those dogs" are all whacko, or they can't work in tight places, or whatever--fill in the blank. Believe me, I spent quite a few years trying to talk to them, and ended up walking away in disgust and frustration. They don't want to be "enlightened."

A

[1sheepdoggal]

I think all the discussion about definitions of words and we how use them, is interresting, but what hasnt been approached, is how using the words, herding verses working, Border verses collie and all of the above, more so defines the person that is using them.
Personally, I started working collies in the "working dog" camp, and picked up the lingo from the old hands. It never occured to me to use words like Im going herding, I think it was frowned upon if ya did, and showed what an absolute novice a person was, and some times the term novice ment having no respect for the stock involved, which was equally frowned upon by the old hands. So to me, what words we use to describe what we are doing with dogs and stock, is more a definition of the person who would be using them and their faithfulness, and thoughtfulness and commitment to the work, the dogs and the stock, as a shepherd, handler, breeder, trialer, of the working Border Collie. The words we use, can define our character, and I can understand how some would get rufffled when it comes to trying to redefine their character through the use of different or some times what can be construde as wrong terminologies. JMO
Persoanlly, I couldnt really care less what words others use, I understand what they mean when they say them. To me, it just defines who I am talking to and perhaps their level of experience and commitment and undrstanding of the working dog and all that that entails when I hear it.

[osioda]

HI everyone, and I don't want to cause no problems or heated discussions but I found this site on the internet that I thought was very interesting I would like to hear what a few other people have to say about this or maybe some of you are members of it.
Steve

http://borderwars.bl...bca-vs-akc.html

[1sheepdoggal]

No comment, been there, seen that. Pee U
Search the archives, Im sure you will find plenty of discussion about it.

[bsms99]

I read some of his stuff and was underwhelmed. For me, the bottom line is this: with the United States Border Collie Club & American Border Collie Association involved, we have fine working dogs readily available to any who need one, and fine dogs available for those, like myself, who want a pet who is also intense, focused, intelligent, etc.

Under the AKC, the Australian Shepherd has gone from a fine working dog to a good pet. Going downhill is easy, and it is all the AKC knows how to do.

In 20 years, the AKC can undo all the work of the last 200. They've proven their ability to ruin a working breed time and again. Until they drop conformation standards for a working (and only a working) standard, there can be no compromise that doesn't harm the breed.

A quote from that site: "I firmly believe that the modern Border Collie has cut the umbilical cord with sheep, and although we may go back from time to time for guidance and motherly sustenance, the Third Estate of the Border Collie is poised and capable of producing quality dogs that are no less agile, intelligent, trainable, and keen as the dogs produced by the First Estate."

He doesn't seem to understand the dangers of the downhill slope. Breeding something less than a working dog is easy. Downgrading from a working dog is easy. It is going uphill that is hard. Those who want something less can find it easily - try the average Aussie (FWIW - I love Aussies). His views on working dogs are pornographic...when you accept lower standards, you get them.