62 replies to this topic

[Angel_55]

Lately, since I have had more time on my hands, I have been thinking of getting into some herding classes with Angel, my 4 year old BC. However, just the other day I read on a website (not this one) that it is pointless to spend the time/money on classes if you don't have livestock at home that the dog can practice on on a regular basis. Is that true? Because we don't have access to stock on a regular basis...

-Amanda

[Chesney's Girl]

There are lots of people who are considered "weekend warriors" when they take lessons with their dogs. You will simply just progress at a different pace than someone who has access and knowledge to be able to work on their own.

[Bo Peep]

I am a "week-end warrior". After 6 lessons with my new trainer, we have progressed so well. I really wish I had access to sheep. I know that when I lived on a farm, I did and things moved more quickly. Since I began, Usher's stamina has increased- thus meaning longer lessons and my new trainer is wonderful (commented on by my old trainer) so I feel good about that.

It might take you a little longer without sheep on your own. Have you considered renting a pasture near your home? That way between lessons, you can work on what the trainer has given you and then go back with some better results. I know, it's expensive. Some people around your area (mine also) are willing to let you work their sheep at little to no cost. They are rare, but NICE people do exist in the world.

[Angel_55]

Since we also train and compete in agility, I don't have very much spare cash laying around... so renting a pasture is not possible currently. I am also a younger teenager, so no job yet either. I *might* be able to convince a friend of mine who has some acreage to get some ducks or chickens or something if I will help with the expenses (she will be getting an Aussie soon and wants to get into herding too).

A couple more questions: Angel has epilepsy and is currently on phenobarbittol for it. To put it bluntly, her coordination sucks. We just had to up her dosage a week ago, and if she's running and decides to turn quickly, she will plop right over. Just today, she managed to get up and back down the stairs without falling... woohoo! Hopefully, once she's used to this new dosage, she'll get a little better. Do you think we should still try and get into herding? We manage it with agility...

How much on average does a herding lesson cost?

-A



*Haha, Bo Peep, I just realized you live like right next to me (well, a town away) Who is your trainer?

[hsnrs]

When we started the trainer charged $30 (trainer trained only the dog; not me). If she trained the dog and me it was $40/hr. Different areas and people charge different fees. Recently we found a trainer who charges $60/hr. N

[Bo Peep]

New trainer $25.00 for an hour and a 1/2. He just loves my dog. PLUS determination puts us in the category of maybe trying to trial next year- cross your paws. More "known" trainers can cost you a lot- they have earned their respect and the money they charge.

Oh Angel- I am going to Kelly Orr. He has been "approved" by my old trainer- He said "You've got one good trainer there" and in return, he said " It's all in the breeding"
So, respect goes two ways. If you live close bye, you can catch a ride with me on Tuesday mornings- wear your long underwear.

We work in snow, sleet, rain (I used to live in OR- so no problem) It's nice to meet new people on the board.

[Sue R]

Hmm, Bo Peep's trainer works with Aussies also, and that might work out very well for you and your friend.

The lack of coordination would concern me. It's great that you both enjoy agility and can cope with the issues that the medication causes. But agility equipment isn't moving and reacting to the dog, and sheep (and other stock) do. I am not sure that it wouldn't be biting off more than your dog can handle. But, a good trainer could evaluate that and will be honest with you.

Ducks are an alternative, but they do have their drawbacks as training animals. Chickens are not an alternative, at least not that I have ever heard of.

Best wishes!

[osioda]

HI I don't want to detour you in anyway, but if your dog does have epilepsy I would think you would want to be careful in putting her with livestock if she does have seizures so that she does not get hurt also, and also most people feel that it is about the dog learning, but to be honest the dog if he is bred for herding, he already knows more than you if you do not have any experience with livestock, Herding is first for you learning to read the livestock, and I am sure that several will back me up if you are to be a top herder it is as much for you learning to read livestock, and how to handle livestock yourself, you are only learning how to control your dog in moving the livestock the way you want them to go. Actually for alot of you who do not have livestock and are weekend warriors with out much livestock expereince I suggest if there is anyone around even if they don't allow you to work your dog with them just ask them if you can just go out and watch there livestock, and learn, learn there habbit s learn what types of things spook them. How and what they do when they are spooked.

And Angel the first thing I would do is first decide if you wish to do this and if you do, I would suggest you take you dog to a trainer and have your dog evaluated and see what natural talent he has. And if the talent is there for him and is bred into him then I would start from there. And usually I can look
at a dog within just a few moments an see if the talent is there as with several others an trainers.

Also it can become very addicting to you once you start Amanda and you may decide you like it more than agility.

Steve

[Pearse]

Herding is first for you learning to read the livestock, and I am sure that several will back me up if you are to be a top herder it is as much for you learning to read livestock,

OK, not to pick on Steve, who is giving decent advice here, but can we all agree to stop using the term "herding" as it pertains to Border Collies working livestock. While it is technically true that the Border Collie is a herding breed and that the dog is in fact herding livestock when it works them, the person directing the work is not a "herder" and is not "herding", and the term is an incomplete description of what is going on.

Why worry about a simple word??

Words matter, and "herding" as in "let's go herding", "me and my dog went herding", "my herding triainer" etc. reduces what these dogs do to a game or activity. It also neglects or ignores the human's responsibility in all of this which is stockmanship, care of and appreciation for the livestock being worked (which is what Steve's point was).

So, your dog does not "herd". Your dog works livestock, works sheep, goes to work sheep, learns to work. You learn stockmanship. You learn how to train your dog to work stock, or how to handle your dog.

Every time I read "Moss and I went herding this weekend" it conjures up an image of Ch Princess AngelFire FancyPants HCD in a red bandana, chasing three jaded animatronic sheep around a 40' diameter round pen while the handler tries in vain to keep the dog away from the sheep with a garden rake.

If that's the image you are going for, more power to you but if not, put the emphasis on the work - pretty please.

Perarse

[stockdogranch]

Well said, Pearse. I would also include the phrase, "herding with my border," to the ones you've listed.

To the original point: if the OP and her dog already do agility (that is, already have an "activity" they can do), and are OK with that given the dog's meds, I think I would forego learning to work stock at his point. As others have pointed out, I would think it would be too dangerous for all, or just too much for this poor dog. Working stock requires a ton of focus and coordination, and in this case, for what? So the dog can add another "fun game" to its list of activities? Not sure I see the point. If/when the OP gets another dog who is physically sound, then go for it,

A

[PSmitty]

Originally I was going to ditto what Danielle said, as I'm a "weekend warrior" (I'm sure that term also offends Pearse et al. ), but after reading about the epilepsy and lack of coordination, I agree with Anna.

[Angel_55]

Sorry... I must have been a little confusing- The bad coordination should only last for another couple of days- it is a result of upping the dosage of phenobarbittol. But, in the future, if we ever have to up the dosage again, this bad coordination will happen again for about a week. Also, she only has seizures when she's sleeping...

I guess we're not going to be getting into herding anytime soon... but thanks for all of your advice

[Bo Peep]

It's not bad being a week-end warrior. To see that light bulb go off in your dogs head is a wonderful thing. I have a disease also. My trainer works the sheep and dog and then I go in. If he sees I am having trouble, he jumps the fence and rescues me. If not, I am left alone to work my dog.

The same would go for your dog. Once you get the meds under control, give it a shot. My trainer works with all breeds in different ways. He owns border collies, Aussies, kelpies and ACD's.


Herding can be a hobby or it can be serious competition or just plain ranch work. Either way you use it, it's so much fun to watch your dog "see" what it's meant to actually do.

I only wish you the best of luck and hope the health of your dog improves. After that, we can talk about catching a ride together. Where do you live?

[Lora]

Hey Amanda,

I am the mom of a teenage son that used to run agility. I started my whole sheep journey just 4 years ago when I took a rescue border collie to be instinct tested because she has so many fears in agility. Since then my life has changed beyond measure....I now own 10 acres, way too many sheep, and a few more working dogs!

First I would ask you "what are your goals in agility?" and then "what do you hope to gain by putting your dog on sheep?" See I am old.....and I know that time and money are priceless commodities! If you want to be very good at agility...I would tell you to spend your time and money there. There is a saying...if you chase too many rabbits, you end up catching none!

Another thing to consider is how much of working stock is the person learning to understand and respect stock! I totally love watching people and their dogs gain understanding. But, the one thing that I have issue with is folks who look at the sheep like equipment...tools to exercise/train their dogs and get their titles...and only attempt to work occasionally. That attitude is very hard on all involved...especailly the sheep. Once you run a sheep into the fence and break its neck and it costs you $30 for the lesson and at least $150 for the sheep.....you might have wished somebody had been more forthright with you. Now, not every dog runs sheep into fences...but I do want to warn you IT CAN HAPPEN...and the sheep can certainly run into you!

I don't mean to discourage you either....but I do want to add in another perspective. There is just so much more to working sheep...then showing up! However, I am so glad I did show up that one day.....my life is so much richer in knowledge, experience and friends.

By the way, I don't run agility anymore.....I know that every minute and penny spent on agility could have been spent working my dogs or training me. Which now leads me to running to the store to buy a heater to put in my pump house...to thaw my holding tank...in hopes to have water for my sheep! Right now those jumps and tunnels are looking mighty fine....no feeding, watering or birthing!

Good luck and keep us posted!

Lora

[MagRam]

OK, not to pick on Steve, who is giving decent advice here, but can we all agree to stop using the term "herding" as it pertains to Border Collies working livestock. While it is technically true that the Border Collie is a herding breed and that the dog is in fact herding livestock when it works them, the person directing the work is not a "herder" and is not "herding", and the term is an incomplete description of what is going on.

Why worry about a simple word??

Words matter, and "herding" as in "let's go herding", "me and my dog went herding", "my herding triainer" etc. reduces what these dogs do to a game or activity. It also neglects or ignores the human's responsibility in all of this which is stockmanship, care of and appreciation for the livestock being worked (which is what Steve's point was).

So, your dog does not "herd". Your dog works livestock, works sheep, goes to work sheep, learns to work. You learn stockmanship. You learn how to train your dog to work stock, or how to handle your dog.

Every time I read "Moss and I went herding this weekend" it conjures up an image of Ch Princess AngelFire FancyPants HCD in a red bandana, chasing three jaded animatronic sheep around a 40' diameter round pen while the handler tries in vain to keep the dog away from the sheep with a garden rake.

If that's the image you are going for, more power to you but if not, put the emphasis on the work - pretty please.

Perarse

If you agree - as you say - that words matter then herding or to herd is in fact the more accurate and descriptive word than the one you suggest "working".

The English language is a rich tapestry containing hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of words. By common usage and understanding - often over centuries - sometimes over just a few years certain words come to have accepted meanings. We have words that are more general - like "work" or "working" and those that are more specific like "herding".

According to the Meriam - Webster Dictionary the word "herd" as a verb dates to the 13th century and is given the meaning "1 a: to gather, lead, or drive as if in a herd <herded the children into the car> b: to keep or move (animals) together, 2: to place in a group". While I wish they had not used the example of herding children into a car which I suspect is a more recent example, this is clearly a description of what we do with our dogs when we work livestock.

"Work" - which you suggest we use - is an even older word from Middle English dating to before the 12th century. Here is the Merriam-Webster entry "Main Entry: work
Pronunciation: \ˈwərk\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English werk, work, from Old English werc, weorc; akin to Old High German werc work, Greek ergon, Avestan varəzem activity
Date: before 12th century
1: activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: a: sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result b: the labor, task, or duty that is one's accustomed means of livelihood c: a specific task, duty, function, or assignment often being a part or phase of some larger activity "

Clearly from the standpoint of being more descriptive of that activity which we undertake with our dogs and livestock "Herding" is more specific and descriptive than "working".

Now I will agree with what I suspect is your real point of contention that the term - as used by many involved on the periphery - that what passes for "herding" in certain organizations and circles is not what a true shepherd would recognize as "herding" or is at best a stripped down version. That does not mean that we should simply abandon the more specific and accurate word to describe real herding in favor of a generic word such as "work".

It is part of the evolution of our language that the meaning of words can change or be co-opted over time. The current Christmas season offers us a fine example from the Christmas carol suggesting "don we now our gay apparel" - also used in the theme from the Jetsons in "we'll have a gay old time" or to refer to the 1890's as the "gay 90's". As recently as the 1950's this word was universally understood to simply mean "happy". Now it is universally understood to refer to a sexual preference.

A teacher teaches. A doctor doctors. A blacksmith smiths. A farmer farms. An engineer engineers. A writer writes. Do we denigrate any of their avocations by using the specific term for what they do instead of the more generic "work". I do not think so. That is why I don't think we can "all agree" not to use the word "herd" in its dictionary meaning which has thrived for 700 years.

The use of the word "herding" does not reduce what true herding is to some sort of game or "activity". Rather it is an accurate and more specific description of working livestock.

Let's not abandon the better word simply because some have chosen to dilute it.

[Sue R]

When Merriam-Webster are my instructors and betters in the world of stockwork, maybe then I will decide to use the word "herding".

The word "collie" means a working dog. My dogs do stockwork. We don't go "herding". "Herding" is a hobby or activity.

I'll continue to use the words that I am comfortable with, and you can use those that suit you. There are many words and symbols that no longer convey their original meaning. The kennel club set has pre-empted the word, "herding", and they can have it in my opinion. It's stockwork, not a hobby or "fun with Fido". If it's just "fun with Fido", then I guess it's "herding".

JMO, and I'll agree with Pearse on this one.

[appyridr]

>The word "collie" means a working dog.

Including 'Lassie' dogs who 'herd' in AKC?

> My dogs do stockwork. We don't go "herding". "Herding" is a hobby or activity.

"hobby" An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure. Definition: pleasurable pastime
Antonyms: job, profession, vocation, work

"work" To exert oneself physically or mentally in order to do, make, or accomplish something.

I now use the phrase 'work(or train) my dogs' or 'go to work sheep' with my Border Collies as opposed to the 'old' days when I used to 'go herding' with my ACD. However, it was and is a passionate HOBBY. I do not apologise for that or feel 'lesser' for it: in fact I think my contributions in clinic/lesson fees and trial entry donations are quite happily welcomed by a lot of those 'working' folks. I do not own sheep so my access to 'work' my dogs is limited and rarely do we actually perform what I would call 'real' work; worming, doctoring, sorting, moving a flock from one area to another etc. However, I wonder how many people/what percentage have actual 'work' for their dogs? In my area(PacNW) I see a lot of small farms with sheep and no dogs; sheep come to barn each night for a bucket of grain or hay. I also see a lot of folks who have a flock of sheep primarily for training their dogs for competition in sheepdog trials. I would suggest that the majority fall into that category. If you do not earn your living from the keeping of sheep, then it is a hobby. Doesn't mean that a hobby can't be profitable or partially so. Doesn't mean that it is all about 'fun with Fido' although I would wonder if you weren't enjoying the activity, why would you be doing it?

>I'll continue to use the words that I am comfortable with, and you can use those that suit you. There >are many words and symbols that no longer convey their original meaning. The kennel club set has >pre-empted the word, "herding", and they can have it in my opinion.

I agree with you. But I don't think we need to teach the Kennel club set to use the word 'work' - how then could we tell the difference between 'them' & 'us'?

regards Lani

[MagRam]

When Merriam-Webster are my instructors and betters in the world of stockwork, maybe then I will decide to use the word "herding".

The word "collie" means a working dog. My dogs do stockwork. We don't go "herding". "Herding" is a hobby or activity.

I'll continue to use the words that I am comfortable with, and you can use those that suit you. There are many words and symbols that no longer convey their original meaning. The kennel club set has pre-empted the word, "herding", and they can have it in my opinion. It's stockwork, not a hobby or "fun with Fido". If it's just "fun with Fido", then I guess it's "herding".

JMO, and I'll agree with Pearse on this one.

I fully understand your position but I choose not to abandon 700 years of usage to the Kennel Club so easily. The word has an accepted meaning and I personally find it more descriptive than "working". JMO that I believe in protecting the language as well as that which you prefer to call "stockwork" (which BTW is more descriptive than simply "work"). Simply please underrstand if some of us choose to use the word herding in its original and centuries old definition we are not intending to insul;t the purists. Rather we may be drawing the line in the sand to prevent co-opting the word. So try not to be offended if I - or others - choose to talk about herding. It is - as Pearse acknowledges in his post - the technically accurate term.

[stockdogranch]

OK (donning my professorial Linguist's hat), I will agree with Pearse and Sue. Look again at this definition:

1: activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: a: sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result b: the labor, task, or duty that is one's accustomed means of livelihood c: a specific task, duty, function, or assignment often being a part or phase of some larger activity "

To me, that indeed DOES describe what it is that we are doing with our dogs and livestock. As opposed to:

b: to keep or move (animals) together, 2: to place in a group".

(I'll leave that business about putting children in a car out of it, as that is utterly ridiculous.)

When I am working stock with my dogs, I am doing more than "placing them in a group"--both my dogs and I are doing "sustained physical and mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective..."

Now the Basque who is hanging out in the mountains while the large flock grazes is probably "herding"--he is keeping his animals together; he is watching over his flock; he is a shepherd. But when he trails those animals down from summer pastures, puts them through a chute, and then loads them in the truck, etc., etc., I would say he is now "working" the stock.

Indeed, languages (all languages) are ever-changing (Ok, well, except for maybe French, as the French are SO opposed to change in their language). And I seriously doubt that the original definition (13th century) has anything to do with a weekend activity that some people choose to do with their dogs that includes the dog having some interaction with a handful of sheep in a round pen.

As a linguist, one of the fundamental issues we deal with is the idea of "descriptive" vs. "prescriptive"-- in other words, we look at how people actually use language in their everyday activities, as opposed to what the "rule book" says we should or should not do (think things like "never end a sentence with a preposition" or dictionary definitions). And so, as our language has changed, what we now have is the word "herding" commonly used to describe what a mediocre dog might do in an arena to gain some worthless title, as opposed to a person who makes all or at least part of his/her livelihood from livestock, and uses dogs in that operation. Talk to anyone who uses dogs in their livestock operation--I bet none would say they "herd."

A

[MagRam]

OK (donning my professorial Linguist's hat), I will agree with Pearse and Sue. Look again at this definition:
To me, that indeed DOES describe what it is that we are doing with our dogs and livestock. As opposed to:

(I'll leave that business about putting children in a car out of it, as that is utterly ridiculous.)

When I am working stock with my dogs, I am doing more than "placing them in a group"--both my dogs and I are doing "sustained physical and mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective..."

Now the Basque who is hanging out in the mountains while the large flock grazes is probably "herding"--he is keeping his animals together; he is watching over his flock; he is a shepherd. But when he trails those animals down from summer pastures, puts them through a chute, and then loads them in the truck, etc., etc., I would say he is now "working" the stock.

Indeed, languages (all languages) are ever-changing (Ok, well, except for maybe French, as the French are SO opposed to change in their language). And I seriously doubt that the original definition (13th century) has anything to do with a weekend activity that some people choose to do with their dogs that includes the dog having some interaction with a handful of sheep in a round pen.

As a linguist, one of the fundamental issues we deal with is the idea of "descriptive" vs. "prescriptive"-- in other words, we look at how people actually use language in their everyday activities, as opposed to what the "rule book" says we should or should not do (think things like "never end a sentence with a preposition" or dictionary definitions). And so, as our language has changed, what we now have is the word "herding" commonly used to describe what a mediocre dog might do in an arena to gain some worthless title, as opposed to a person who makes all or at least part of his/her livelihood from livestock, and uses dogs in that operation. Talk to anyone who uses dogs in their livestock operation--I bet none would say they "herd."

A

Anna - I was waiting for your input as a linguist as I know that is your background As you know me - you know my background and "work" often requires precision in the use of the language. I also happen to be a fan of the English language and prefer to use it correctly whenever I can.

As the portions of the dictionary definition you have requoted demonstrate "herd" is a description of a more specific task than is "work". BTW - you left out definition 1a (the first listed is generally the most accepted - I assume because of the ridiculous example) "1 a: to gather, lead, or drive as if in a herd".

Yes "work" is clearly applicable because we are performing a task when we are applying "sustained physical and mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective" using our dogs to achieve that objective on livestock. Yet by common usage over centuries the word "herd" gives more specific description of that task - to gather - yes we are doing that - lead or drive as if in a herd - yes we are doing that.

I understand - believe me I understand - that because some use the word "herd" to describe what most on this board would consider a diluted task - that the term "herding" for some has acquired a pejorative connotation. However, this presents two alternatives - one is to choose a different word - "working livestock" for example - the other is to fight abandoning the word entirely by continuing to use it properly so it does not lose its original meaning.

BTW - for anyone who chooses to use the word "work" - which I often use myself when talking about working my dog - I am not offended in the least. Just understand that - unless you are speaking to someone involved in your specific kind of work the term will likely not have the same meaning. For example to an Iditarod competitor I suspect the term "working" his/her dogs has an entirely different meaning related to pulling a sled.

Yes, the meaning of words evolves over time with usage. For me, however, rather than being a sign to abandon the correct usage because someone else is using it incorrectly or diluting the word it is further reason to use the correct word for the correct meaning.

Just understand that anyone who chooses to be offended by the word "herding" as applied to dogs gathering, fetching, driving, penning, etc., livestock is making that choice on philosophical grounds.