Hair loss around eye Options

[Lenajo]

demodex does not itch unless you get a secondary infection.

the feet and eye thing you describe sounds like seasonal allergies

I find a spider that big in my house and too heck with the floors. I'm shootin' it!

[bcnewe2]

I guess I should have clarified, I know she has seasonal allergies but at that time I'm thinking her immune system is compromised making the demodex come out. Didn't I read that all dogs have this and usually compromised health will let it surface?

Ray is already feeling better. This year since I sold all my sheep so the fields got thigh deep. Now that I've taken the hay off it, her allgeries have been subsiding.
Again, I just found a tiny flea on Dew's nose. It was very easy to pick off and kill so I'm thinking the Comfortis is working only they have to bite to die. Wish there was a way to keep them off the dogs. To bad big spiders or scorpions don't eat fleas. We'd be flea free for sure! We could even make some money selling them to people suffering with fleas!

Anyone else have such big bugs coming in to share the house for the fall/winter?

Jaderbug,
What have you decided to do with Jade?

Kristen

[Journey]

Didn't I read that all dogs have this and usually compromised health will let it surface?

Yes, generally there and they come out with compromised immune systems is what I was told.

Anyone else have such big bugs coming in to share the house for the fall/winter?

Are you kidding! If they're that big and want to stay in the house they damn well better pay the mortgage as well! Or I am sucking them up in the vacuum


Karen

[Rainierlass]

Roz's eyes will do this from time to time - - she has what we believe to be contact allergies - mainly grass - - was checked for demodex and it came back negative at the time of the check - she also gets rash on her belly and chest after herding or outdoor agility ( I wipe her down with baby wipes - - aloe type and it works wonders ) - - - the only real change I made was to get her on a really good fish formula food - - Orijin "6 fresh fish" or Wellness Core 'Ocean' are the two I have fed - - and add salmon oil to her food - and her eyes have looked great since - - - I tend to agree with the stress issues and the immune system - - she is a red which I tend to think makes a difference also - allllllllllll those recessive genes at work!!!

I think I would try the homeopathic route rather than the chemicals and see how she does - IMHO

[Mona Howard]

I was told once to buy a flea collar and every time you change your vacumn cleaner bag you snip off
a few inches and toss it in the bag before attaching it to the machine. If you suck up any fleas it should
do them in. I guess it would work for spiders too?

[juliepoudrier]

I didn't check this thread for a while and missed a good part of the discussion, and even though the discussion has taken off on a bit of a tangent, I want to point out that seemingly healthy dogs being fed well and living "the good life" can have demodex that doesn't clear up without intervention (that is, it's not just a problem of neglected or stressed dogs). I have one such dog, and several different vets told me not to worry about the bare patch on her snout. Finally (after a couple of months or more), it started "pimpling up" and bleeding and once again I consulted a vet, this time at a sheepdog trial. He (bless you Stu) very kindly met me at his clinic, did a scraping, found a mite, and gave me a topical treatment. It cleared up. Maybe it would have eventually cleared up on its own, or once I switched her over to ivermectin (which is my HW preventive, except that I keep puppies on Interceptor for 6 months to a year before switching over), but my point is that demodex can affect even seemingly healthy dogs and it doesn't always just clear up on its own.

Jaderbug,
I'm glad you decided to try the ivermectin instead of the dip. I just wouldn't want to risk having a chemical like that put so close to my dog's eye. I dose my dogs with 0.3 cc of ivermectin (0.06% sheep drench) monthly for HW prevention. It's my understanding that even dogs that have the MDR1-1delta mutation would not have adverse effects at such a low dose (this does is 3 x the minimum effective dose for dogs the size of mine). Once I accidentally gave one of my dogs a full milliliter (cc) of ivermectin (this would be a 10x effective dose, at which point a sensitive dog might well have a reaction), with no ill effects. I don't know why vets are still so reluctant to use ivermectin in some breeds, especially those like the border collie, which haven't been found to carry the mutation. If you'd like to point your vet to a very informative website (you probably should read it too), it's here: American Working Collie Association. Note that this site says that even collies that carry the mutation (even homozygous carriers) generally can be given ivermectin and its relative milbemycin oxime (Interceptor) at the prophylactic doses used for HW prevention. This link also provides a list of common drugs that are in the same chemical class as ivermectin. I wonder how many vets have recommended Immodium for dogs with diarrhea but won't recommend invermectin for those same dogs because of "collie sensitivity." Anyway, I always recommend this website because it has good, solid information. It also has a link to the University of Washington, where research on collie sensitivity is being conducted.

J.

[JaderBug]

Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone... I'll keep updating on how she's doing. I just started her Ivomec treatment yesterday, it's a liquid oral medicine. The vet had actually mentioned that once the Ivomec regimine is done, she still wants to do a dip, but I guess we'll wait and see. I don't really want to do a dip.... hopefully the Ivomec does the trick.

Someone mentioned something topical... what is it, and where might I get it? I'd be a little cautious about applying something so close to her eye though...

On a different note, Jade's diet is going pretty well already, I actually notice a tuck on Jade now! She's still flabby around her ribs, but she does look like she has a tuck.

[Lenajo]

The standard topical is Goodwinol ointment - I may not be quite right on that spelling. It usually works in 6-8 weeks...

Sounds like Julie's dog had a secondary infection. Of course I'm not a vet, but pimples usually are not part of demodex. Also stress is a reality for a dog that travels to trials - heck even training is stressful. It doesn't have to be negative stress, but it's stress all the same. A predisposed dog to immune compromise will fire off a demodectic patch during situations of stress. Keep up the stress and the dog is not going to get well. (and that may be impossible, because a quality active life for a dog is full of normal stress)

I don't use ivermectin at all anymore. Had some dogs with decreasing thyroid levels that my vet had a hunch about - and sure enough, when we stopped the ivermectin the levels climbed back up. Her theory is that since ivermectin affects the central nervous system of parasites, that it may also affect dogs more than we think - in particular the thyroid.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone... I'll keep updating on how she's doing. I just started her Ivomec treatment yesterday, it's a liquid oral medicine. The vet had actually mentioned that once the Ivomec regimine is done, she still wants to do a dip, but I guess we'll wait and see. I don't really want to do a dip.... hopefully the Ivomec does the trick.

Someone mentioned something topical... what is it, and where might I get it? I'd be a little cautious about applying something so close to her eye though...

On a different note, Jade's diet is going pretty well already, I actually notice a tuck on Jade now! She's still flabby around her ribs, but she does look like she has a tuck.

[juliepoudrier]

Wendy,
Yep, it was Goodwinol ointment, and I recognize that the bleeding/bumps were not demodex, but the fact is that until those developed, I couldn't get a vet to take notice of the problem (I couldn't get anyone to check for mites--they all dismissed it and said she'd get over it) or offer any treatment for it, even though it clearly wasn't resolving itself over time. And my point about the health thing was that everyone seemed to be implying that rescue dogs and dogs that have had improper care are uniquely prone to demodex, so I wanted to point out that even well-cared-for dogs can have it.

J.

[stockdogranch]

Yup--I had one of my girls have a very mild case of it last year when she had her cycle. Goodwinol was what was prescribed,
A

[bcnewe2]

I think Raven is one of the best kept dogs around here . But I also think her issues stemed from the seasonal allergies and fleas that were compromising her immune system, if the baldness was demodex at all. I never thought much about it with all her itching I chalked it off to that. I was not aware of demodex even beginning to clear it's self up without treatmeant, or that stress, even in a mild form could cause an outbreak in an adult dog.

If that is the case and you could get the issues under control, would you be waiting to see if it resolved or seeking treatmeant right away?

I would think cycling can cause some stress, so could that be the compromise that might have started her outbreak of demodex? And Julie, do you think you could pin point anything that might have been adding some stress to your dog when she frist got the bald spot on her nose.

I'm also suprised that even when you were bringing up the issue with your vet(s) that they would not do the test that you were requesting. My vet will do just about anything I ask if it's within reason, even if he thinks it's not the problem. If what I'm asking for won't compromise the situation.
Last summer Lonesone the LGD was limping off and on. I wasn't on top of if it was changing legs but instead of sending me to a different vet for xrays which he wanted me to do. (he doesn't have much in the way of office equipment and causually mentioned his machine had been broken for a while and he hadn't gotten a round to fixing it) I suggested treating for TBD's with doxy to see if it would resolve itself. It did the trick and we were both happy.

I do worry about something happening and not having a good relatioinship with a vet that I will have to see for something serious.
But, I do love my vet so until I need to, I'll be sticking with him. The reason I love him is the feeling I get that when I ask or bring up an issue he listens and takes my thoughts into consideration. I do try not to influence him when I have no ideas but, it's hard....I'm a internet queen theses days when I run into something I don't know about concerning the dogs. I think it can get a person (me) in trouble when they/I get so much conflicting information or just bad information off the net.
Kristen

[juliepoudrier]

I And Julie, do you think you could pin point anything that might have been adding some stress to your dog when she frist got the bald spot on her nose.
<snip>
I'm also suprised that even when you were bringing up the issue with your vet(s) that they would not do the test that you were requesting.

Kristen,
It's my understanding that susceptibility (for lack of a better word) for demodex also has a genetic component, which implies to me that some puppies might just be more inclined to have the suppressed immune system-demodex outbreak even if there is no particular or great stress going on. Lark was raised exactly like all of my other youngsters, so there has to be another component (genetics?) involved. I believe another pup in her litter also had problems, but the rest did not. If I should ever breed Lark, it will be interesting to see if any of her pups have this issue.

As for the vets, I didn't mean to imply that they refused to test--I never actually said "I want you to test now." What they kept saying was that it would clear up on its own so there was no need to worry about it. And I thought the "clearing up on its own" was taking too long, and then she ended up with the bleeding, which started the weekend I was at the trial I mentioned and at which point I did say to the vet "please test."

J.

[bcnewe2]

Gotcha Julie.
Way back before I got Raven (got her at 10 months of age) I think she was kept back from some of her littler mates that went to a friends to help be sold. The guy that bred her never left his farm. I think she was left back because of a skin issue. Interesting.

[osioda]

Promeris does work good in clearing this up and mange, the problem with people using Promeris is how they apply it, Make sure you use the right dosage for your dog, and make sure you put it on the skin between the shoulder blades, the problem comes if your dog is able to lick it or get any of it orally. If you have other dogs able to come in contact right after you treat one dog they can lick it an have a problem so just keep the one you treat separate for a day an you shouldn't have no problem

I have used this on more than one of my border collies and have never had a problem.
Steve

[JaderBug]

I'll be taking Jade back to the vet once her bottle of Ivomec is out (which should be sometime next week) and we'll get a confirmation, but I'm pretty sure Jade's hair is growing back around her eye. Hopefully that means the lil demodex mongrels are all gone!!

[DaisyDoodle]

I am so glad that so many of you feel the same way I do about dips. We brought a barn cat home about 16 years ago and while he is still with us today, our vet (at the time) nearly killed him. He was wormed, had shots, and flea dipped all in one shot. He spent a week at the vet's office recovering. Ever since them I am so leery about how much we can actually do to our animals. I really don't even like putting the flea and tick stuff on Diasy!

[IPSY]

Just got back from the vet.... it's demodex. She only found one in the scraping she did, but doesn't want to risk it. Apparently a Collie came in a while back with the same amount of hair loss as Jade, the owners decided they wanted to wait and see what happened, and by the time they came back to the clinic, the dog was losing hair all over its body.

The options the vet gave me were Ivermectin or a series of dips. I've always been told to stay away from Ivermectin with Border Collies, so she goes in for her first dip tomorrow. She told me with as small of an area as she has, it shouldn't take long to clear up, as few as 3 dips. She also said, like Journey said, that it occurs when the immune system is compromised.

Glad I know what it is and was able to catch it early enough...

Hi,
I just had to reply to this topic. My BC was recently diagnosed with demodex. Same place, around the eye.
My vet suggested using a course of interferon and zinc methionine. This was given orally, one for 30 days , the other for 60 days. So far , within two weeks of using this , the hair has started to grow back. Now, close to the 30 day mark , all the hair is grown back beautifully.

Good luck..

[Alchemist]

My 8-month-old pup was diagnosed a week ago with demodectic mange (spot near his right eye). The vet (who did a scraping, and found a mite) prescribed a triple antibiotic ointment, and said that the vast majority of cases resolved themselves within a month without any intervention. My pup had surgery in early September, and has been on restricted activities since early August; that, and juvenile hormones, could easily have provided the stress that triggered his infestation. The vet didn't want to use an insecticidal ointment this close to the pup's eye, though I gather from my orthopedic vet that others would. A week later, I don't see signs that it's spreading. As long as it doesn't show signs of spreading further, I'm happy to keep the pup on this relatively conservative course of therapy. I'd be pretty leery of toxics for something localized that, from all I've read, resolves itself spontaneously in 90% of cases.

I did find an interesting website: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_demodectic_mange.html . Aside from the fact that it promulgates the myth that you shouldn't administer ivermectin to Border collies (sigh), it has an interesting suggestion for a non-Amitraz approach for treating generalized (as distinct from localized) demodectic mange: administer Interceptor tablets on a daily basis (not monthly). Sometimes you can find packs of Interceptor tablets that will expire within six months; these are sold at a discounted price. (The downside is that you may need to administer Interceptor daily for several months).

Again, this is for generalized, not localized, demodectic mange. Generalized demodectic mange, or demodectic mange in the feet, is another situation altogether from localized demodectic mange.

The vet did ask me if I had any plans on breeding my pup. (NO!). I gather from this website that the tendency for mange to progress from localized to generalized can be inherited - they recommend that people avoid treating localized mange (with anything other than antibiotics, that is) to see whether it'll spread. If it does, they recommend against breeding the affected dog. He suggested that I try to reduce any stress on the pup. (Most of this probably relates to his regimen of "reduced activities" and not letting him play with all the other dogs he sees). Not much I can do about that at this point.

[trailrider]

A vet suggesting a dip for demodex is incompetant. He may be "thinking?" of sarcoptic mange, of course, but that makes him seem even more in need of educatin.