Reading the situation correctly

[Laurae]

On another thread, I was bemoaning my tendency to screech at my dogs during training. Though I strive for calm control, I often get increasingly exasperated until I sound just awful. I think this is partly because I have an idea of what I think should be happening and I can be calm when things go roughly according to plan, but when the dogs don't do what I ask, I get upset. On the surface, this sounds right—I mean I should come down on them when they don't listen, but what about when I do not read the situation correctly? I often don't really understand what is going on quick enough to respond appropriately. This difficulty assessing things in real time is the biggest thing hampering our progress. It may come more intuitively for some folks, but definitely not for me! But developing the ability to read the situation is the key to progressing. I think if I can start to take into account why they might not be obeying me, I might not get so exasperated (and then screechy); if I can unemotionally apply a quick correction at the time he doesn’t take a command, I’ll be fixing things rather than screeching as it all goes wrong. Or if I can look at the big picture and see that he's actually making a correct choice for the circumstances, I won't be upset (I'll actually be pleased and don't want to take that out of him). This happens especially when I'm trying to work on something different than the problem at that point in time turns out to be (e.g., I'm concentrating on encouraging Taz not to hesitate on his outrun but then he pushes too hard on the fetch and doesn't stop when I ask him to).

 

I worked my dogs yesterday in an arena, which is a little brutal for Taz (Craig's not a big fan of arenas either). He feels and responds to the pressure in a big way in arenas, but the field I usually train in is unavailable right now. I have, in fact, been working on Taz's tendency to hesitate on his outrun, and Denise had suggested that I send both of them together on an outrun, as they may spur one another on. I did that a few days ago in the field, and the results were encouraging. So I decided to try it yesterday, even though we were in the arena.

 

At the risk of embarrassing myself in a big fat way, here is our first (and worst) brace attempt yesterday. Note the progression of the screech (not that you'll be able to ignore it ). I was originally upset at my own screechiness, which I knew I was doing even as I was doing it, but only after seeing the video did I see that after Taz didn't take my initial "lie down" command, I should have either shut up and let him cover the sheep before asking for another stop or, perhaps even better, gone up to him and demanded the stop after the first time. (Or maybe that's not better, since the situation was changing so quickly, and besides I am trying to encourage him forward...but then I don't want to let him get away with sloppy work...but I don't want to chance exacerbating the hesitation...but...aargh! ) How could I have handled this better?

 

 

I do want to add that I don't actually get mad at my dogs, I get exasperated at myself for being such an incompetent trainer...

[kelpiegirl]

I believe we are living in parallel universi. I had the same thing happen yesterday (and got it on tape). Well, not the SAME thing, as I was only working one dog, but... my dog just wouldn't take the lie down I asked for, and by the time I had enforced it - by getting into her face, the sheep had made a mad dash, which I had to flank her and she had to run HARD to catch them. Really, I was loud during that training session. I too wasn't angry at my dog- well, maybe a little, for her not taking the lie down. But, much of what happens is because she doesn't take the lie down... It seems to be a vicious cycle.

[Laurae]

But, much of what happens is because she doesn't take the lie down... It seems to be a vicious cycle.

 

YES!!! Sooo frustrating!

[kelpiegirl]

I may even try teaching her just a plain stop. I think she feels completely out of control in a down, and also, when she gets up, she gets up/moves forward too fast. I have to think of something because it is really hindering progress. So, that's what I am trying next. Maybe if she is on her feet- she will feel less out of control.

[Little Bo Boop]

I'm thinking more and more that I prefer a "Stand' as opposed to a "lie down". With Stella I waited a while before putting a down on her (there are a few dogs in her line that tend to be sticky) so to be on the safe side, I just used a stand to stop her. I found that she wasn't going to be sticky, so she now has a down, but I don't usually use it. When I give her the Stand, she will either Stand or lie down now (on her own), I don't care what she does, as long as she stops ;-) I started using a Stand with Liz, my pushier young dog, who had a bit of a problem with a lie down, and its actually seemed to help her. She too is able to pick what she does, as long as she stops. The other reason I think a Stand might be a better way to go, is that I think (at least in our case) Liz feels a little more in control if I just give her a Stand (read less tense) , plus she is usually moving at the speed O' heat ;-) so if she's down and I get her up, she tends to startle the sheep. And I might add, that as a Novice (something I consider myself) but you might feel uncomfortable at first just using a Stand (and hey it may not be the way to go for you and your dog) I know most Novice handlers natural default is the "Lie Down!" ;-) and it just feels strange at first to say Stand! and you're dog just Stands ;-) but once you get used to it (I think it acutally feels like you're giving up a little control) it seems to (for me anyway) work pretty well. Just my two cents ;-)

 

Betty

[hsnrs]

We use stop and stand sometimes. It worked pretty well for our trainer and gradually our girl would down. In fact she does it readily now. Maybe it is a gradual learning process that they eventually do as they are told.

[Sue R]

Laura - Your posts and experiences are so similar to mine at times that it is a bit scary. So, I really appreciate them and can learn a lot from your comments and the replies to your posts. Thank you!

[Laurae]

Well, Taz does have a pretty solid stop, most of the time—it just seems to disappear sometimes in an arena. My thoughts were mostly that I wish I could more quickly understand why he isn't taking a command so I could react more appropriately. I guess it comes with time and experience, tho...

 

Sue, there are a few of us that go through similar training challenges, I think. I do wish we lived closer to one another so we could do a fun day some time and learn from each other!

[Sue R]

Well, Taz does have a pretty solid stop, most of the time—it just seems to disappear sometimes in an arena. My thoughts were mostly that I wish I could more quickly understand why he isn't taking a command so I could react more appropriately. I guess it comes with time and experience, tho...

 

Sue, there are a few of us that go through similar training challenges, I think. I do wish we lived closer to one another so we could do a fun day some time and learn from each other!

 

That would be fun - I'll bet we could laugh ourselves silly and learn a lot by watching each other.

 

As for arenas, Celt has his problems in an open field but, in an arena, they tend to be magnified. He's very pressure senstive and an anxious dog as well. In our recent lessons, we did a lot of work in a smallish area. The work we did last lesson seemed to very helpful to him (and to me, too).

 

Best wishes!

[Denise Wall]

Hi Laura,

 

First off, from the way you described it, I was expecting something MUCH different. You're going to have to go quite a ways before you can become a member of the screeching fish wives club

 

Some random thoughts:

 

Why were you saying anything to them at all? They were doing fine I thought. It was pretty cool to watch.

 

With Taz and Craig working together, they had much more to think about. They not only had the sheep, but each others' effect on the sheep to worry about. They seemed to be working that out okay.

 

The first time Taz didn't stop, it was clear he didn't because he was reading the pressure that he needed to flank before you saw it. As you thought, you got locked into making him obey the lie down command even as you saw the situation changing (the sheep veering off to your left). He's then faced with, do I lie down, while in his mind this would let the sheep get away. He decided he couldn't lie down right then. He does finally lie down once he's got them covered.

 

There are plenty of people who would insist on the down no matter what. Personally, I would have just let them work. I didn't think things were out of control. You were trying to improve Taz's enthusiasm on the outrun so I would mainly worry about that and just not letting things get too out of hand after the outrun. Of course this kind of goes back to the "no bad habits from the start" thread from last week; some people would insist on as perfect as possible work after, some wouldn't.

 

As for continuing to insist on the down after it's clear he responding to the sheep in a good dog way -- there's a time to give up when you see you're wrong or there's no hope of them obeying. If you watched the latest training video of May, there's a place at the end where I'm trying to teach her to come in and hold a group on the shed. After coming through, she's overwhelmed and starts back around the back group to put them all back together before I can help her enough to stay with the first group. I'm insistent until I see it's time to give up. Then I let her go. I just keep working at it until she's more comfortable with what I'm asking. Over the course of a few sheds attempts, she begins to understand what we're doing and trust me more. I considered that to be letting her develop, instead of letting her develop bad habits.

 

Depending on the dog, if you consistently try to make it down when it thinks it's going to lose its sheep, it will learn not trust you to help it control the sheep. It then has two choices. It can either stop caring about controlling the sheep. Or it can start to blow you off. In the situation in the video clip, once you saw he was trying to cover, you could've given him an "away" command. Then at least he would've been obeying something. Then when he got to a place he was more comfortable stopping, you could give the stop command again. That would help build trust.

 

However, all that said, you will at some point need them to listen to you and go against their instinct to do certain aspects of real work, or for trialing. Once I have them trusting me to help them control the sheep enough, and I make a mistake like you made, I view it as just one more situation where I'm asking them to do something against their instinct, like an off balance flank they might not want to take, but one that will direct the sheep somewhere you need them to go. That way of viewing it seems to give me the confidence to insist on the command even if I was wrong. Like in your situation, I just change the fetch into something where I *wanted* the sheep to go to the left. So I would flank him back around comebye and stop him, and make him take them that way for a while, as if that were my plan to start with.

 

So in summary, in your situation, I would have just let them work. I view something like that with a young dog as a situation where I will only expect them to handle a certain amount of pressure. IMHO he had enough with figuring out how to handle the outrun, lift and fetch with the other dog.

 

PS I figured out your Craig dog is a half sib to my Kate, who is May's mom. Both off Dale. Small world

[Sue R]

Thank you, Denise, I needed to hear all that, also. It was very helpful and, as usual, wonderful advice.

[Shoofly]

In the situation in the video clip, once you saw he was trying to cover, you could've given him an "away" command. Then at least he would've been obeying something. Then when he got to a place he was more comfortable stopping, you could give the stop command again. That would help build trust.

 

This is really excellent advice from Denise, so i wanted to pull it out and see it repeated.

 

I really didn't see that much wrong but you asked what could have made it better so i'd just add that it looked to me like Taz could use some encouragement to cover a bit better (and Denise's advice above would have helped with that). There towards the end when you gave him a walk up, i might actually have given him an away instead since the sheep were leaning off that direction still, as well. If you keep the idea of "containing" the sheep in mind, and help him a bit, his confidence in himself and his feeling of being able to master the sheep will grow as well. And he'll feel more comfortable taking those downs too. You don't have to screech if the commands are right and make sense to the dog in relation to the work (for example, stopping the dog on balance or when he's got the sheep covered). Just some thoughts.

[Pippin's person]

Another great topic! It would be a lot of fun to do a clinic all together--maybe somewhere in the middle of N. America.

 

In addition to learning to read the situation correctly, I also have so much trouble learning when to correct--and at what level of intensity. And the timing, of course. And remembering to watch the sheep--except when I should also be watching the dog. And remembering that it's as much the process as the outcome. And remembering to not over think--or under think....

 

One thing that has helped me a lot is to go back to small spaces where I can control things a lot better and less can go wrong--the sheep can't get away, etc. I brought Hamish into the round pen to help me get the timing better and to help him remember that he wants to listen. At the clinic we attended a few weeks ago, the clinician said that he'd never regretted going back to the small pens but had often regretted not doing it.

[Shoofly]

I just thought of something else. Years ago, Simon Mosse was over here and did some lessons. This was when i was just first getting into this stuff myself. One thing that has totally stuck with me all these years that he said was that the down should not take a dog "out of the work". It's a working command, not a stop working command. Food for thought.

[Laurae]

Hi Denise,

Your post is so meaty and full of great stuff, I hope you don't mind if I dissect it a little to add my comments (and probably lame explanations/excuses). This discussion is just really helping me think through all this!

 

Hi Laura,

 

First off, from the way you described it, I was expecting something MUCH different. You're going to have to go quite a ways before you can become a member of the screeching fish wives club

 

Did you hear me scream Taz's name at the end? Ugh!

 

Some random thoughts:

Why were you saying anything to them at all? They were doing fine I thought. It was pretty cool to watch.

 

Because I'm an idiot. Well, because I was taught to always lie my dogs down at the top (though this often gets me in trouble because I then get upset if they don't take it).

 

With Taz and Craig working together, they had much more to think about. They not only had the sheep, but each others' effect on the sheep to worry about. They seemed to be working that out okay.

 

I didn't really think about that, of course. It's been drilled into me that I shouldn't let them get away with not listening to me, even in an arena--I used to be the classic novice who would stand there helplessly watching my dog cause wrecks, and so I feel like I should (try to) maintain control no matter what. This is part of my trouble, though, as I clearly have trouble distinguishing real problems from trusting them to work things out.

 

After the first time Taz didn't stop, it was clear he didn't because he was reading the pressure that he needed to flank before you saw it. As you thought, you got locked into making him obey the lie down command even as you saw the situation changing (the sheep veering off to your left). He's then faced with, do I lie down, while in his mind this would let the sheep get away. He decided he couldn't lie down right then. He does finally lie down once he's got them covered.

 

I can see than now, after watching the video, but at the time all I think about is that he's causing them to move (and therefore the need to cover) because he didn't lie down the first time I asked. I think I need to let that go because once we've reached that point it really doesn't matter. However, I think I often ask for a stop too early in the first place, so I can recognize that it is often my fault. I am trying to improve my timing...

 

There are plenty of people who would insist on the down no matter what. Personally, I would have just let them work. I didn't think things were out of control. You were trying to improve Taz's enthusiasm on the outrun so I would mainly worry about that and just not letting things get too out of hand after the outrun. Of course this kind of goes back to the "no bad habits from the start" thread from last week; some people would insist on as perfect as possible work after, some wouldn't.

 

Exactly. I like to think that I fall into the more natural camp, but I think I have been too passive (or ineffective) in the past and let some bad habits develop that actually would not have been such a big deal had I intervened earlier—like his slicing. So perhaps I am overcompensating now, but I am just trying to be more active. I am just not quite sure where that line is...

 

As for continuing to insist on the down after it's clear he responding to the sheep in a good dog way -- there's a time to give up when you see you're wrong or there's no hope of them obeying. If you watched the latest training video of May, there's a place at the end where I'm trying to teach her to come in and hold a group on the shed. After coming through, she's overwhelmed and starts back around the back group to put them all back together before I can help her enough to stay with the first group. I'm insistent until I see it's time to give up. Then I let her go. I just keep working at it until she's more comfortable with what I'm asking. Over the course of a few sheds attempts, she began to understand what we were doing and trusted me more. I considered that to be letting her develop, instead of letting her develop bad habits.

 

I went back and had a look. I think this is pretty key--because this again is where the line is between letting them develop by gentle guiding while not letting them develop bad habits.

 

Depending on the dog, if you consistently try to make it down when it thinks it's going to lose its sheep, it will learn not trust you to help it control the sheep. It then has two choices. It can either stop caring about controlling the sheep. Or it can start to blow you off. In the situation in the video clip, once you saw he was trying to cover, you could have given him an "away" command. Then at least he would have been obeying something. Then when he got to a place he was more comfortable stopping, you could give the stop command again. That would help build trust.

 

However, all that said, you will at some point need them to listen to you and go against their instinct to do certain aspects of real work, or for trialing. Once I have them trusting me to help them control the sheep enough, and I make a mistake like you made, I view it as just one more situation where I'm asking them to do something against their instinct, like an off balance flank they might not want to take, but one that will direct the sheep somewhere you need them to go. That way of viewing it seems to give me the confidence to insist on the command even if I was wrong. Like in your situation, I just change the fetch into something where I *wanted* the sheep to go to the left. So I would flank him back around comebye and stop him, and make him take them that way for a while, as if that were my plan to start with.

 

So in summary, in your situation, I would have just let them work. I view something like that with a young dog as a situation where I will only expect them to handle a certain amount of pressure. IMHO he had enough with figuring out how to handle the outrun, lift and fetch with the other dog.

 

That makes so much sense I can't believe it never occurred to me! I think Taz has learned not to trust me completely, though he is very forgiving and always willing to give me another chance. He just really wants to be right, and I think he is often torn between doing what I want (off stock he is a near-perfect dog) and doing what he feels is correct with every ounce of his little being. Anything I can do to strengthen his trust in me while working until I can consistently make correct decisions is very, very much appreciated!

 

PS I figured out your Craig dog is a half sib to my Kate, who is May's mom. Both off Dale. Small world

 

So May would be Craig's half-niece then? That's very cool!

 

THANKS so much for taking the time to look at this and write out such an informative response, Denise! I so appreciate it!

 

ETA: Okay, I've just seen these other responses. Robin, as always, your comments are very helpful as well. I think I tell Taz to walk up knowing (and relying on the fact that) he'll probably actually cover the sheep, but I think I've interfered with that natural tendency to some extent. He is definitely not always sure what he should be doing, and one of the things I learned at the Derek Scrimgeour clinic last month was that I should not leave the dog to have to guess at what I want. He should either know from my very consistent expectations or I should tell him. Since I haven't exactly been consistent...I guess I should try to make things as black and white as possible for him. Also great, great thought on "the down should not take a dog 'out of the work'. It's a working command, not a stop working command." If I can remember this, it will help me develop a better sense of when to demand the stop at all costs.

 

So...when's the all BC Board members stockdog clinic going to be?

[1sheepdoggal]

It's a working command, not a stop working command

 

Wonder if theres a way to etch that to the inside of ones eyeballs so it stays right in front of me all the time.

Great topic, great posts. Thanks ladies!

[Laurae]

I really didn't see that much wrong

 

I didn't notice this before.

 

<smiles from ear to ear and even giggles like a schoolgirl>

[Shoofly]

So...when's the all BC Board members stockdog clinic going to be?

 

Come on over, i got the sheep!

[kelpiegirl]

I have been told all of this. I have been told my dog must lie down when I ask and stay there until I release her. I agree- she has a tendency to want to, um, get moving before I release her. But, I also believe that I ask for this at the wrong time, or, perhaps I ask at the right time, she takes a few seconds to comply, and then boom, to hell in a hand basket. I worked sheep the other day that are not fetchy. She started out fine, but then she was too pushy on the fetch- this caused that you run I run stuff. I yelled for a down- it was *really* needed. Did I get it? No. I ran up the field to enforce it. I finally got it, but then the sheep were jiggered, and I had to flank her to catch them. I had just proven to her that I in fact have no clue what I am doing, when in reality, if she had downed when I asked, all of the following would more than likely not have happened. I know that we have to let them work, and at some point they need to be obedient over all else, but what if they don't trust you? Will it just take time? By the way, I've no idea if my dog doesn't trust me or not, I just know that things go much better when I ask for and receive a down, and then we go from there.

[Denise Wall]

I didn't really think about that, of course. It's been drilled into me that I shouldn't let them get away with not listening to me, even in an arena--I used to be the classic novice who would stand there helplessly watching my dog cause wrecks, and so I feel like I should (try to) maintain control no matter what. This is part of my trouble, though, as I clearly have trouble distinguishing real problems from trusting them to work things out.

 

The line on this is just something everybody needs to work out for themselves eventually. I'm somebody who spent a lot of time just watching and hoping things would go alright. And with dogs I shouldn't have been doing that with. I still do this too much. However, while this is often wrong, it can help give some insights. What it's given me is not only information about what things look like when they're completely wrong, and what they look like when they're right, but what they look like in-between. So if things are not perfect, but I can see them heading that way, I know more about when I can leave the dog alone. Likewise, if the situation starts deteriorating, I know more about when to step in early and help the dog just enough to turn things back the other way.

 

Basically, there are no quick answers or shortcuts. Certain dogs will help you some ways, others in other ways. Just enjoy the journey.

 

 

I can see than now, after watching the video, but at the time all I think about is that he's causing them to move (and therefore the need to cover) because he didn't lie down the first time I asked. I think I need to let that go because once we've reached that point it really doesn't matter. However, I think I often ask for a stop too early in the first place, so I can recognize that it is often my fault. I am trying to improve my timing...

 

It frequently happens that they cause the reason they feel they can't mind in first place. It's still the same though. Whoever caused it, they need to trust you to help them control the sheep. Dogs that want to do something already, or are in a situation where they feel comfortable doing it, usually mind commands very well. If they're having trouble minding a command, make it easier for them to do so.

 

Anything I can do to strengthen his trust in me while working until I can consistently make correct decisions is very, very much appreciated!

 

That's kind of a hard one to answer but I will say this -- try to not make it such a battle all the time. Both of you will be happier. If he's having a hard time taking the down in a certain situation, try a compromise. I use my dogs' names a hundred different ways while working them and they nearly always understand what I want. When you ask for a down, why are you doing it? If the answer is you need the sheep to steady up, then try a steady, or like me, call out his name in a way that will make him hold up some. If that does it, then that's one less battle you've had to fight, and you've given him just a little more leeway to work. Almost any dog will be more willing to take a down at another time when it's really needed if they feel like they've haven't been constantly badgered over it for no good reason. Ask yourself if you're using it as a crutch.

 

So May would be Craig's half-niece then? That's very cool!

 

Yup

 

ETA: Okay, I've just seen these other responses. Robin, as always, your comments are very helpful as well. I think I tell Taz to walk up knowing (and relying on the fact that) he'll probably actually cover the sheep, but I think I've interfered with that natural tendency to some extent.

 

Robin gave some good advice here. Another away flank instead of walk up would have been the thing to do.

Also, since we've been talking about voices, listen to the way you gave your walk up command. What I hear is "walk up fast." Is that what you want?

 

Also great, great thought on "the down should not take a dog 'out of the work'. It's a working command, not a stop working command." If I can remember this, it will help me develop a better sense of when to demand the stop at all costs.

 

Simon left a real impression on many of us when he was here so many years ago. Another couple of gems from him are: Correct a dog in its work [as much as possible]. That is, when you let the sheep run past you and go up the field to make them stop, that stop no longer makes any sense to the dog. Another one is a flank should be appropriate to the specific sheep a dog is working, not some pre-determined shape.

 

Anyway, great topic. Video is great isn't it?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I can't add anything to the specifics here - some great advice as usual. But I thought I'd share something as a nervous novice that applies to the overall idea of "What if I correct the wrong thing, or do something wrong or miss THE PERFECT TIME TO CORRECT SOMETHING AND I'LL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE?" [apologies for shouting but that's how it looked in my brain every time I worked.]

 

I asked Jack something last time I was at a clinic. I said, "So, I just try stuff, as a novice, and see if it works, and try to learn from my mistakes? And that's not going to screw up my dog Forever and Forever?"

 

And he said that it's worse to hesitate to help and be a Nervous Nelly, than to take a risk and make mistakes.

 

That jumped me forward, oh, about a million miles in my training and handling since then. I only think about myself and worry about whether I'm Doing Something Wrong, about 50% of the time now, and my dog really enjoys the other 50% where I'm actually thinking about him and learning from both our mistakes and our successes.

 

And that was much more wordy than I intended, sorry. Someday I'll learn top compress these thoughts as well as Robin and Denise and some of the others here.

[Shoofly]

Simon left a real impression on many of us when he was here so many years ago. Another couple of gems from him are: Correct a dog in its work [as much as possible]. That is, when you let the sheep run past you and go up the field to make them stop, that stop no longer makes any sense to the dog. Another one is a flank should be appropriate to the specific sheep a dog is working, not some pre-determined shape.

 

 

Yep, i've wished many times since that he'd come back. I was sooooo green then. I know i'd get a lot more out of him now. That stuff about correcting a dog in the work is huge.

[Laurae]

More excellent responses and things to mull over! Thanks everyone!

 

I know I sometimes talk much, much too quickly. I talk pretty fast in everyday life, too, so it's been a challenge for me to slow down my cadence when working the dogs. I said that "walk up" fast and choppy because I was upset about the battle I'd had with Taz right before that. I can and do let things go pretty quickly, but not that quickly. Something else to be aware of, now that I can see what I'm doing a bit more clearly.

 

I definitely use the lie down as a crutch--every time I feel like things are getting out of control, I try to lie the dog down to get a minute to think. Might help me; clearly doesn't help my dog. I will try to expand my repertoire

 

It is a mind shift to think about correcting a dog in the work. I'd like to hear more about that, because it's part of where to define that line (when to step in and when to let go). Actually, I think this conversation has made me more fully realize that those are not the only choices--that the better option might be to change what I am asking for based on the way the situation is changing.

 

And about adjusting to sheep the dog is working, rather than some ideal set of sheep in my head—this is definitely part of being able to read the situation correctly. The reason I find it harder to stay calm when things don't go according to plan is often because the sheep are not acting the way I have decided in my mind that they should (Cause, you know, I'm such an expert on stock behavior )

 

Video is really useful for being able to really see and analyze this stuff!