Need help with HUMAN part of team

[kelpiegirl]

Is there some sort of resource "room" or remedial class for handling one's dog? I sucked POND WATER at the last trial. First, I couldn't remember which way counter clockwise was. So, just to be sure at the post, I put the sheep around it both ways. Then, on the assisted drive, apparently I weave like a drunk driver. Then, when we ran again, I got the sheep around the post in the right direction, and STILL messed it up some how- what are the rules on the turn at the post? I am completely dismayed at my incompetence. I believe my dog will have to become real proficient in driving, so that I can stop screwing up her work.

[juliepoudrier]

- what are the rules on the turn at the post?

This is a question for the handler's meeting. Technically you need to go around the post the *right way* or everything you do after that point would be off course. When in doubt, it's always best to "unwind" and put the sheep around the post in the correct direction. But sometimes a judge will tell you that if you've gone the wrong way, don't unwind, and s/he'll take care of it "with the pencil," (although this is more likely in the lower classes than in open). That's why people will sometimes ask the question at the meeting.

 

If you visualize the direction the sheep need to go after passing you and the post, it should be fairly obvious which way the turn should be even if you forget what was said in the meeting (that is, if you're wearing sheep to a panel that's set off to the right of the field, it wouldn't make sense to turn the post clockwise, since that would be setting the sheep up to head off in a line toward the *left* of the field). What I'm trying to say is that it may help you to think about the next portion of work in the sequence as your guide for which way to turn around the post rather than trying to remember clockwise or counterclockwise.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Julie

The SICK part is that it was the same direction both days! The panels were basically almost straight ahead, and then a turn into the field for home. The thing about my run on Sunday, is that I had them around the post c-clockwise, but apparently they didn't go all the way around? They came up and came around and then maybe I didn't get them ahead of me before I left for the wear? I have no idea? But, I remember the scribe telling me we weren't all the way around. I feel bad for the judge, as clearly I am an idiot, and invent new things to make the judge go "What the heck was that???" Perhaps I need a lesson in turning the post- seriously- any important details anyone can offer?

[juliepoudrier]

Julie,

If you're doing a wear and the sheep are broke enough to hang with you (which they likely are in a novice class), then just stand on the same side of the post around which they will turn, turn the post *yourself* with the sheep following, and then start your wear. So if the turn is c-clockwise, you'd stand to the left of the post (post on your right), facing the setout, and let the dog bring the sheep to you. As the sheep approach the post, you can back up a couple of steps top give them room to clear the post (not cut in front of it) and then back on around the post in the correct direction. That's the easiest way to set up a nice controlled start to the wear. Before your run, you can decide which side of the post you need to stand on, and then you don't need to worry about remembering clockwise or counterclockwise. The fact that you've set yourself up on one side of the post (predetermined) and that you will have to turn the post as well will ensure that you go the right way 'round (because to go the wrong way, you'd have to cut in front of the post). Make sense?

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

For any type of sheep (knee knockers or wild) I always stand on the side of the post I do not want the sheep to go around (I block their path). I started this after a trial where I attempted to turn the post the wrong way 3 out of 4 times. I send my dog, then look up the field to check the drive direction, and then move to the side of the post I want to block. Anyother key for turning the post smoothly is MOVE!!!!! You have about a 10' diameter circle around the post where you can move. If you view turning the post like balancing the sheep around the post with your dog you can get a nice smooth turn. I actually walk around the post in balance position as we are turning the post (someone else taught me this).

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

When I "graduated" from wearing to driving, I also started doing as Mark does (that is, stand on the side of the post I don't want the sheep to go on). The difference is in the sheep. If you're dealing with sheep that want to come to the human and you're trying to set up the wear it didn't make sense to me to "draw" them to the wrong side of the post, so I would stand on the side I wanted them to come to and draw them toward me. As I said, this only works for sheep who want to come to the human, which is often the type of sheep being used in the novice-novice class, and it also allows the novice dog to do what it wants to naturally do, which is bring the sheep directly to you. If you are standing on the wrong side to block the sheep, then you are also asking your N/N dog to do off-balance flanks (i.e., your dog and you are going to both be on the same side of the sheep) to get the sheep around the post and set up the wear, which can be a problem. By the time you've moved up and are setting up a drive instead of a wear, it makes more sense to stand on the side you want to block. Really it comes down to doing what makes the most sense to you and enables you to get the turn right.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

There's a great example of a turn at the post in Renee & BJ's run at Hop Bottom (at about 1:00 into the video); these were dog broke katahdins. Renee follows the sheep around the post which means she is moving the balance point out in front of the sheep and BJ is moving towards the balance point causing the sheep to turn. Following the sheep around the post makes an easier transition to driving; leading (wearing) the sheep around the post yields an easier transition to wearing.

 

 

Mark

[Little Bo Boop]

For any type of sheep (knee knockers or wild) I always stand on the side of the post I do not want the sheep to go around (I block their path). I started this after a trial where I attempted to turn the post the wrong way 3 out of 4 times. I send my dog, then look up the field to check the drive direction, and then move to the side of the post I want to block. Anyother key for turning the post smoothly is MOVE!!!!! You have about a 10' diameter circle around the post where you can move. If you view turning the post like balancing the sheep around the post with your dog you can get a nice smooth turn. I actually walk around the post in balance position as we are turning the post (someone else taught me this).

 

Mark

 

"I always stand on the side of the post I do not want the sheep to go around "

 

Yep, thats how I was tought too, seems to make it pretty clear, and so far I've not had an instance of turning the post the wrong way. And the other advice, as you noted, you're not glued to the post ;-) so move ;-) I know somebody on the board didn't advocate the 'standing where you don't want the sheep to go' something about dog broke sheep coming to you or something...but so far I've not found that to be a problem.

 

 

Betty

[juliepoudrier]

Oh good grief. I was taught a different way and had plenty of success doing it that way in N/N. I don't think I've ever turned the post the wrong way either, FWIW. I personally think it's easier for a novice dog and novice handler (not an open handler running a P/N dog) to keep the sheep *between* them. There's no reason we can't offer different solutions to a problem, is there? KG, do what works for you.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

No reason several methods won't work. I just was never very good (as a N/N) handler guessing if the group of sheep coming at me would come to me or try to avoid me. I had both types at trials as I was coming up; and within the same trial the groups could be different.

 

Mark

[kelpiegirl]

What I did last time was stand to the right of the post, so the sheep were blocked and could only go to the left of me (and the post). These sheep were pretty ready to go the exhaust (behind us) so they readily went. I think I need to hold on to the darn thing, so I remember which direction. When are the sheep DONE turning the post, that is, when have you completed it? No, I am not joking.

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmmm...I would be inclined to say the turn is complete once the sheep break the plane/line through the post that is perpendicular to the fetch and on the opposite side of the post from where you started the turn. I haven't ever really thought about it, though, because if you're going to turn the post you pretty much have to go all the way around (not a complete circle, but from the side you started on to the other), don't you, and I think that's how I'd view it if I were judging....

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

The turn is not an element by itself (in terms of scoring). The first half of the turn is part of the fetch and the second half is part of the drive/wear. The fetch ends when the sheep break the plane directly behind the post in line with the fetch line; the wear/drive starts at that point. How much room around the post the judge will allow before deducting points for being "off-line" is up to the judge.

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

Mark,

That's what I started to say, then I started imagining whatever situation Julie had where she did her wear but was told by the judge that she hadn't completed her turn. You're saying that as long as the sheep passed that line, the turn was complete, which makes sens, but then if they then crossed back over that line and the wear was started from the wrong side of the post, how would you judge that? Just as off-line from that side of the post till she got them back on the correct side/line I'm envisioning a scenario where the sheep never actually get to the other side of the post)? Does my question even make sense?

 

KG,

What exactly happened in your run for the judge to say you didn't complete the turn?

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Mark

This clarifies things a LOT.

 

The turn is not an element by itself (in terms of scoring). The first half of the turn is part of the fetch and the second half is part of the drive/wear. The fetch ends when the sheep break the plane directly behind the post in line with the fetch line; the wear/drive starts at that point. How much room around the post the judge will allow before deducting points for being "off-line" is up to the judge.

 

Mark

[kelpiegirl]

That's just it- I don't know. Sheep came to me, I stood off to the right, they went beyond, then turned the post, then we started the drive after they were on the other side of the post. It wasn't the judge who said I didn't do this, it was the scribe, who I assumed would know. In all honesty though, I was shocked that we hadn't because I held on to the darn thing and everything I don't know if they crossed back over. I do know that practicing this seemingly SIMPLE requirement, is definitely in order. Sheesh.

 

Mark,

That's what I started to say, then I started imagining whatever situation Julie had where she did her wear but was told by the judge that she hadn't completed her turn. You're saying that as long as the sheep passed that line, the turn was complete, which makes sens, but then if they then crossed back over that line and the wear was started from the wrong side of the post, how would you judge that? Just as off-line from that side of the post till she got them back on the correct side/line I'm envisioning a scenario where the sheep never actually get to the other side of the post)? Does my question even make sense?

 

KG,

What exactly happened in your run for the judge to say you didn't complete the turn?

 

J.

[Pipedream Farm]

I'll further confuse things by telling you I usually stand in front of the post as the sheep are coming. I decide as they're coming where I want to be. Mostly all I do whether it's the open dogs or the beginning dogs is simply use my body position to influence where I want the dog to go. In terms of remembering which way to turn though has to do with which hand I put my stick in. If the turn is in the away direction (counter clockwise), I put the stick in my right hand. If it's in the come-bye direction, I put it in my left hand. As soon as I send the dog on the outrun, I make sure the stick is in the correct hand. I think the real key is to simply figure out a method that works for you and be consistent about doing it. The longer you do it, it will be more natural and you won't be thinking about each individual step so much.

Renee

[Little Bo Boop]

Oh good grief. I was taught a different way and had plenty of success doing it that way in N/N. I don't think I've ever turned the post the wrong way either, FWIW. I personally think it's easier for a novice dog and novice handler (not an open handler running a P/N dog) to keep the sheep *between* them. There's no reason we can't offer different solutions to a problem, is there? KG, do what works for you.

 

J.

 

 

There's no reason we can't offer different solutions to a problem, is there?

 

Hmmm, and I thought thats what we were doing

[Mark Billadeau]

Mark,

That's what I started to say, then I started imagining whatever situation Julie had where she did her wear but was told by the judge that she hadn't completed her turn. You're saying that as long as the sheep passed that line, the turn was complete, which makes sens, but then if they then crossed back over that line and the wear was started from the wrong side of the post, how would you judge that? Just as off-line from that side of the post till she got them back on the correct side/line I'm envisioning a scenario where the sheep never actually get to the other side of the post)? Does my question even make sense?

 

J.

As long as the sheep have broken the plane behind the post, I would deduct points for being off line if the sheep turn around and go back on the "wrong" side of the post. For me the amount of the point deduction would depend upon the class, the sheep, and distance away from the line (disclaimer: I am very inexperienced at judging).

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

KG,

Well it all gets "curioser and curioser" since you say your sheep made it all the way around the post. That leaves two possibilities: either the scribe misspoke when s/he said the sheep didn't make the turn or you turned the wrong way, which could be counted as not completing the turn. Did you turn the wrong way, or do you not remember now?

 

Mark,

That makes sense. I think I've been more inclined to count the drive/wear as starting once the sheep are actually on the "other side" of the post (that is, I count the fetch and turn as all one element), but I guess ultimately it doesn't matter as long as the judging is consistent. Of course I'm probably even less experienced judging than you are....

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

No, I am sure I turned the right way- perhaps the sheep did make a break back to the other side- honestly, I don't remember. I just know it wasn't a flowing thing. It is all academic now, which is why I am asking so many questions. To handle the post so badly again, would be bad, just bad.

[Mark Billadeau]

Julie, the judging guidelines discuss where the fetch ends and the drive begins. I too feel consistancy is very important and probably the hardest part of judging.

 

Mark

[kelpiegirl]

I think I am starting to "get" what happened. I stood to the right of the post, and held onto it with my left hand, my stick in my right blocking the sheep from that direction. I stayed off the the right of the post as the sheep went by. Then, I flanked my dog to turn them. I then was on the other side of the post (so, in other words I was facing to the back of the post, and the sheep had come up to the right side of the post- all is good. BUT, since I stood to their left, they were drawn to me- thusly, drawn back to the wrong side- which I addressed, by moving and blocking. In the end it was very dis-jointed and ugly.

[juliepoudrier]

Yep, I know the guidelines say something specific, it's just from my viewpoint standing in front of the post, if the dog is bringing the sheep around the post toward me, it's still something of a fetch in my mind and not until the dog is actually pushing the sheep away from me is it a drive. Although, if I'm following dog and sheep around the post, then the dog is actually driving the sheep from the moment the sheep pass the post and I step in behind (that is, before they cross that line behind the post). Remember when a number of handlers used to bring the sheep all the way back to the fetch line in front of the post before starting the drive? According to the guidelines, they'd be losing some major drive points for the whole second half of that circle. Come to think of it, you don't see that sort of turn much anymore (maybe thanks to the guidelines?). I think maybe it would pay me not to overanalyze these things!

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Could some judges be penalizing for facing the sheep all the way around, I have an old example of some I think ISDS guidelines that say the handler needs to have the dog bring the sheep behind him after the fetch. If the handler faces the sheep all the way when would the sheep be going behind him?

 

Deb