Outrun falling apart

[Laurae]

I am kind of at a loss with Taz right now. He seems to have lost his outrun. Taz is three, and is a fast, tight-running dog typically. I've done a lot of work with him on his outrun and got it to where he was running fairly wide and not slicing too terribly (though his slicing is not completely fixed and he reverts to slicing if I'm not careful). For the past few months, I've been working on gaining better control over him, and I've largely succeeded. I can now stop him pretty much anywhere and he doesn't seem to forget that I'm on the field with him anymore. In addition, we've done a lot of work on inside flanks and driving lately, which he has also done very well with. I am very pleased with how he's coming along with that part of his work. But his outrun has completely fallen apart. It's like he has no confidence anymore, particularly on his come bye side. I will send him and he'll take a few steps and then turn to look at me. So I'll repeat the flank, and he usually does the same thing. If I start walking forward toward the sheep, he'll usually go, but he seems to kind of lope rather than really run hard, and he runs tight and slices (which I don't correct when he leaves me so tentatively). If I stand a few feet between him and the sheep and send him, he will go, but I can no longer send him from my feet and see a strong, purposeful flank.

 

This hesitation and lack of confidence is not typical of Taz or his working style. A friend has suggested that the problem is likely that he is getting confused internalizing the differences between driving and outrunning and so just isn't sure what I'm asking him to do. She thinks a break may be best for him. While I don't relish the idea of taking a couple of weeks off, I will of course do whatever it takes to help Taz in the long run. I'll work him one day this week and see if he's still very tentative out there and I will indeed back off for a couple of weeks if he is. I was hoping to get some thoughts on how I might help Taz get through this (perhaps after taking some time off).

 

Thanks for reading and maybe offering any ideas!

[kelpiegirl]

Hi

 

It could be that all that driving, and inside flanks, and stopping him where you need to has left him a bit more dependent on you than you want on an outrun. I have been told many times that once you work hard on driving, your outrun can fall apart. I had a problem with Lucy with her outrun a couple of times where she also hesitated- she actually looked confused on what I wanted. What I did was to set her up, and ask for a come by, and as I did walked off to the right- basically take all the pressure off her, and allow her to do her thing -it worked right away. I would also not concentrate on any one thing too much- break it up. Do some outruns first, have him bring you the sheep, then drive, and then go to another spot, and another outrun, fetch, drive. So, he knows that outruns start something very good for him, and that after driving, he can then do another gather, which is the fun part Lucy anyway

[stockdogranch]

Hard or course to say without seeing it, but this is my best guess...Shorten it up and relax things. If he goes more readily when you are walking that way, too, then I'd do that--you know, not really make it a situation where you park him and then send him (like an "official" outrun), but just casually strolling in the general direction of the stock, and, oh, by the way, go gather your stock kind of a send. Keep it short to where he is confident. Sounds like you've been pushing pretty hard, so I'd let him do work that doesn't strain his brain for a bit. Stuff that's easy and comfortable for him and that requires not too much commands on your part. Let him relax and have fun.

 

A

[Shoofly]

I can now stop him pretty much anywhere and he doesn't seem to forget that I'm on the field with him anymore. In addition, we've done a lot of work on inside flanks and driving lately,

 

When you're doing this work on inside flanks, do you let him go around to head the sheep, or are you always stopping him before he gets to balance?

[Laurae]

Thanks for the replies, guys!

 

Julie, I have been taking a step off (a trick I used on the inside flanks as well) and it doesn't help on the outrun-from-my-feet. I think he has grown a little more dependent on me, which is definitely better than his previous mode of "you talkin' to me?" but obviously not to the extreme where he is afraid to move. I can mix things up more for sure, though, and will try to do that.

 

Anna, I have been putting a ton of pressure on him these past couple of months. We're finally at a point where I am starting to be able to really put things together, and perhaps I've been impatient. I can do fun stuff for a while. I sometimes have a hard time doing only fun stuff because I don't want to let him practice incorrect stuff, so I end up correcting him anyway. I have only recently gained real control over him, and I admit I don't want to lose it so perhaps I'm going overboard. Though it probably sounds like I'm always coming down on him, in actuality I am not--I'm really only just beginning to consistently enforce my corrections (quietly, and by taking a step toward him if necessary, which is all I need to do now, though it wasn't always this way). I don't want to stop being consistent, if that makes sense. Maybe I should only be asking for behavior that is really necessary to enforce. (I mean, not ask for something if I don't really care about it, so I don't feel compelled to then enforce it.) Maybe this is getting off track. Or maybe this is the reason he is becoming so tentative.

 

Robin, I usually do stop him before he gets to balance on the inside flanks...are you wondering whether he thinks he's not really supposed to go to the heads anymore? I hadn't thought of that and that is something I can easily do. I have been having problems with my other (trained) dog sometimes bringing the sheep back to me during a drive, so I wanted to make the distinction between driving and fetching very clear for Taz. But I know Craig doesn't bring the sheep back to me because he is confused about what I am asking him to do (he does it because my timing is off and he prefers to fetch; I'm working on gaining better control over him right now). So, perhaps thinking that Taz should take inside flanks when pushing sheep out only is counterproductive.

 

I think all of you are correct. My poor dog! So, to help him, I need to mix it up, take some of the pressure I've been putting on him off, and let him go to the heads (or all the way around?) once in a while when he's taking his inside flanks, right?

[kelpiegirl]

Sounds good to me Look at like re-stoking his engines- let him practice stuff he is comfortable with for a while, and then sprinkle some hard stuff in here and there.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I always had this problem at this stage until I started using Robin's "taking sheep to market" method of getting them confortable driving. I like it because it's not forcing the dog into position, he's still "feeling" and controlling, just not heading, and then we switch to heading because I say it's okay (and give a cue with my bady language that we've switched to gathering - if I remember ).

 

I was just doing this with ewes and small lambs this morning - a fun challenge (but it also keeps the flock moving slowly). I made things easy by using the fenceline because there was a lot else to deal with, and then I took one side and Ted took the other, and we "took the sheep to market." Down the fenceline, then before they were squished in the corner, we stopped and I let him gather them out of the corner.

 

Then we fetched a bit and then walked down another fenceline. Every fenceline had different draws and my challenge was being as big a help as I could, while letting Ted figure out how he wanted to "help" without any more commands than were needed to keep him from flipping around and heading them.

 

I had to learn, with my uptight fast dog, not to be scared of what he'd do, but just be happy and move the flock along briskly and just fix what happens when it happens. If Ted gets around off course, I just "unwind" him, moving him back to where I asked him to stop (if I remember to do this, too ).

[Ali C]

I found this really interesting, as I just went through this with one of my younger dogs about 2 months ago. He had been very reliable on his outruns, then suddenly starting being VERY insecure about them. He would start out, then look back, and even spin around. All while giving me that "is this right, is this what you want?" look. I too, had been pushing the drive work with lots of flanks- as well as pushing sheep out (then calling him back) to "set" our own sheep for an outrun- and increasing outrun distance. (gosh that sounds awful now!) During the longer outruns (from my feet) I had also been doing a fair amount of stopping and kicking him out (from the post) as he approached the lift. In hindsight I can see now how all of those things compounded could lead to hesitation.

I was advised to simply shorten everything up- by like half to help his confidence. (By shortening the outruns I didn't have to stop him and kick him out) I also quit pushing sheep out and calling him back (with ANY of my dogs). Another thing I did was really get serious with the whistle. (he had a 'there' and a stop, but not flanks) I think this helped him *really* know if it was a flank or a send.

I don't think there was really one exercise that was the "fix", I think it was simply taking the time to back up as far as I needed to in order to make him successful. Like the poster, I had reached a point in this dog's training where things were really coming together and I was pushing for distance etc. By just backing off the distance he came around quickly, and in no time was back to his previous outrun distance and not at all hestitating.

 

Ali

[rac]

In my experience lots of dogs will regress in one area of their work when they're learning something new. This is esp. true if you've been working hard on your new thing and letting the other stuff, that you thought you had nailed, slide a little. This used to be almost a joke when talking with other dog folks years ago. Someone would mention that they trained something new on their dog. The next sentence would be them telling what they had to go back and re-train.

 

I would try to keep this in mind when introducing new concepts in the future. Work on the new thing for a short time (remember attention span is short), then go back and do some things that don't require so much thinking on the dog's part. This is the reward, the fun, and the reinforcement. Think about blending the new in with the old. This way the dog won't usually slip as far when learning new things.

 

As far as your dog and its outrun... without seeing it I might suggest that you regress, in a way, right along with your dog. IOW, go back to the way you trained it to get wider and keep back in the first place. This will remind it that all these things still apply (even though 'we' just learned this new stuff). Try to keep the 'learning' part of the session on the short side. Dog-tired dogs don't learn much even though they'll still try to do what you ask. Good luck.

 

Ray

[Laurae]

Thanks Ali and Ray. I think I have been throwing too much at him recently, and I'll move back down to shorter outruns and generally easier work for a little while. I need to remember to work only for short times when learning new things. It's harder for me to want to do this, since I don't have my own sheep and thus I want to maximize my time out there when I do get a chance to work, but I guess I can see it's just not helping Taz learn anything.