16 replies to this topic

[Pippin's person]

Someone I know asked me a while ago about where to find a BC puppy to train in agility. She is a high level agility person and also does ACK conformation. Not one bit interested in the politics of BCs and also BCs are not her preferred or primary breed. Thinks the AKC is just fine--"just a registry" kind of attitude. She has a sport-bred BC currently who has come up with some health issues.

I did the predictable thing telling her that she would do well to look for a working-bred pup and that there were several people who breed for working ability in the area. Her reaction led me to believe that she preferred a pup bred from agility lines.

I heard recently that she is planning to get a pup from what I consider to be a red flag breeding but that many people believe is an excellent breeding from "proven agility and champion conformation lines" (which is true). It's a color breeding, the breeder is charging $1200, etc. etc.

She hasn't asked me my opinion about it and a number of folks are quite abuzz at the potential of the breeding--which kind of confirms her decision.

Distraught is probably too strong a word for my feelings over it, but it comes close. The breeder is not a puppy mill at all (though she did breed two bitches to the same male and thus has two litters on the ground at the same time); her dogs are extremely well cared for and trained, etc. etc.

What do you folks do in a situation like this? Offer an unsolicited opinion that is likely to do little more than make her think I'm a jerk? Leave some literature laying around anonymously? Accept disagreement and just go on?

[bexie]

She asked you a while ago. You could follow up by pointing out that, since she had asked your opinion before, you wanted to let her know that this breeding might not be a good choice because of all the reasons you know of. Also point out that working stock tends to be healthier (tends, not definite, of course) because it has to be able to WORK, so she might be safer with well-tested working stock when she's been unlucky once already.

[Marilyn T]

First of all, you can point out that $1200 is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a puppy. She is simply buying color, which is not how to get a true border collie. Then you can point out that the conformation dogs never are truly the athletes that the working dogs are. Since I live close by and if you think it would help, I can talk to her and I am willing, but if she is a closed mind, then all that is left is to ignore her since she will probably do what she wants to and disregard your advice.

[Barb Scott]

If she's only buying for color, there's an ad in the GR Press for multiple colored BCs ($500.). I called simply because I hadn't heard of this color before. Actually one B & W, 2 red merles and 1 blue merle (all the merles with lots of white). One of the parents is AKC registered and the other ABCA registered and the man has no clue what he's doing... He's supposed to call me back when he finds the pedigrees for the parents!!! At least he did say this would be his last and only litter-his 4 kids want to keep all 4 of the puppies!
Barb S

[Alaska]

Robin,

I think there are more important problems in the world that you could turn your attention to. This in not an uneducated buyer and these are not carelessly bred pups. It sounds like you've already said your piece to her. If you talk to her again, I would do it in an "agree to disagree" manner. That way, if she later comes to regret her decision, she may come back to revisit your perspective on sport breedings or color breedings of working dogs.

If you want to try to influence where "high level agility people" get their dogs, I think you'll have more impact either by example or by publishing well-reasoned arguments in a place that agility people will see them (Clean Run, agility mailing lists, well-read blogs, etc.).

In the meantime, go give Nessie a pat for me, would you?

[Pippin's person]

If you want to try to influence where "high level agility people" get their dogs, I think you'll have more impact either by example or by publishing well-reasoned arguments in a place that agility people will see them (Clean Run, agility mailing lists, well-read blogs, etc.).

In the meantime, go give Nessie a pat for me, would you?

Both of these are excellent ideas.

I don't think the purchase of the pup is based on color--the breeding is a color breeding (all else being equal kind of thing). Ultimately, I don't think talking is the way to address the issue, sadly.

The bitch has been on sheep but didn't (or couldn't) advance past the round pen. I guess this was kind of the source of my question--the working instinct (at least in this pairing) is mostly gone. How do you show someone that that actually matters--particularly if they are able to turn their sport-bred pup into an awesome sport dog (which many seem to). Writing an article for Clean Run would be an interesting thing to do.

But, are you sure there are more pressing problems.....?

[Marilyn T]

If she is in the Ann Arbor Area, Lyle Lad's sister has two dogs that are excellent, that she got from Lyle that are highly bred for stock work. Also Jim Davis has a nice dog he got from stock lines in Kentucky. Both are high flight agility dogs or up and coming ones in Jim's case. Maybe point out them. Both train at AADTC

Also, Stuart Mah buys his dogs from Kent Kuykendall. That name should ring a bell with her too.
He must do so for a good reason.

[Shetlander]

Also, Stuart Mah buys his dogs from Kent Kuykendall. That name should ring a bell with her too.
He must do so for a good reason.

So then what you would want would be Stuart Mah or some other Big Name to write the article for Clean Run. That is what will get sports people's attention. Because as Robin notes, many people are perfectly happy with their sports bred dogs.

Recently, there was a lot of buzz about some very competitive (not Big Names yet) people in my area getting working bred dogs for agility. When I finally got to see the pedigree however, it was very clearly a sports bred litter, but heavy on the working dogs. Yet everyone who was talking about these pups had no idea of the difference.

[Wendy V]

Robin,

Since you are not so distant from sport breeding yourself, meaning that you have chosen dogs for flyball potential in the past and have only recently added working breedings to your kennel, perhaps you could articulate to this person your own personal journey of enlightenment. But it may not do any good. As you know of our common flyball acquantances, they become prickly when it is suggested that they look at litters from working parents for their future flyball dogs. In fact, they are deadset against it, for reasons that are beyond my comprehension. And these are people we regard as "friends".

I am grateful to M.T. for suggesting to me a working breeding when I was shopping for my first border collie, which was intended only for flyball. As my interests grew, I was able to successfully compete in flyball and pursue the difficult venue of herding. This first puppy has been my enthusiastic working partner for over 12 years. I don't think that a sport bred dog could have stood up to to the training pressures of a novice handler or to the work demands of a full time goose dog.

[Pippin's person]

Robin,

Since you are not so distant from sport breeding yourself, meaning that you have chosen dogs for flyball potential in the past and have only recently added working breedings to your kennel, perhaps you could articulate to this person your own personal journey of enlightenment. But it may not do any good. As you know of our common flyball acquantances, they become prickly when it is suggested that they look at litters from working parents for their future flyball dogs. In fact, they are deadset against it, for reasons that are beyond my comprehension. And these are people we regard as "friends".

I am grateful to M.T. for suggesting to me a working breeding when I was shopping for my first border collie, which was intended only for flyball. As my interests grew, I was able to successfully compete in flyball and pursue the difficult venue of herding. This first puppy has been my enthusiastic working partner for over 12 years. I don't think that a sport bred dog could have stood up to to the training pressures of a novice handler or to the work demands of a full time goose dog.

Funny--I never think of having a kennel, but I guess at some level we do--though of course we've never done any breeding and don't intend to.

I did explain our path from picking sport-bred BCs to picking working-bred BCs when she approached me initially and told her why we made the choices we did at various points. I explained how much information you could find in places like this board concerning BCs generally and the importance of supporting breeding for working ability. I explained about the differences we see in our working-bred pups and many sport-bred pups (in particular their easy off switch, independence and endurance). I just don't think it was the answer she was looking for.

[Marilyn T]

It might be time to break out the head-banging emoticon. If she is fixed in her thinking, you can do nothing about it. However, I might be first in line to say "I told you so!" if I were you! Think of it this way... she will get a crazy wacky border collie, then tell everyone it is crazy and wacky, and convince a lot of other people to avoid this wacky crazy breed. Thus... our working dogs will remain our little secret. Encourage her to register the new pup AKC and get a conformation championship too. Take it right out of our gene pool. Wendy and I discussed this long ago, regarding the designer border collie crosses in flyball. It takes those wacky ones out of the working dog gene pool. They are not spitting out more border collies at least!

[Katelynn & Gang]

Think of it this way... she will get a crazy wacky border collie, then tell everyone it is crazy and wacky, and convince a lot of other people to avoid this wacky crazy breed. Thus... our working dogs will remain our little secret. Encourage her to register the new pup AKC and get a conformation championship too. Take it right out of our gene pool.

lol Wow, I love it!

I sold a nice working bred pup out of one of my working bred litters to a flyballer who wanted a working bred puppy. He runs faster then most of the sport collies I've seen around this area who cost a arm and a leg because they run low "4s." *shrugs* To bad for those who could care less to know any better, they really just don't understand what they are missing in a dog.

Katelynn

[grenzehund]

Robin,

Since you are not so distant from sport breeding yourself, meaning that you have chosen dogs for flyball potential in the past and have only recently added working breedings to your kennel, perhaps you could articulate to this person your own personal journey of enlightenment.

Wendy,

Robin's "personal journey of enlightenment" would have little rhetorical bearing on our friend's decision, primarily because the history and character of our "kennel" are so different from our friend's. And, apparently, different from what you understand it to be.

I assume the dogs you believe we "have chosen for flyball potential" are Pippin and Hamish? Since I don't recall you being party to our discussions about getting them (I don't think we even knew you then), I'm not really surprised by your error. No doubt you'd prefer not to persist in it. So:

Pippin, our first border collie, came from a litter bred and marketed for flyball and recommended by flyball teammates. However, she was chosen for her temperament. (No, she is not crazy and wacky or in need of an off switch.) She never evinced much enthusiasm for flyball (to my amusement), but her interest in working is a different story.

Hamish, the third of our six border collies, was from the same breeder. His sire (different from Pippin's) is from working lines in Ireland. He was not represented to us as flyball material, nor did we choose him for that reason. At the point we got him, we had begun training our second BC to work sheep, and wanted to do the same with him. He is doing quite well, despite the handicap of his handler. Not at all interested in flyball.

Perhaps you were thinking of our first dog, our mutt, who is our only dog to have a CRN. He once ran a 5.13, but was chosen for his snuggling potential.

None of our dogs was chosen for "flyball potential."

Susan

[kate40541]

I don't think that a sport bred dog could have stood up to to the training pressures of a novice handler

That's a good point Wendy, but one that apparently the people who do breed for a particular sport haven't realized yet.

I've stopped trying to talk to people about border collies and why they shouldn't be bred for anything other than to work, so far I've been talking to myself because a BC is seen as the ticket to the big time and all they see is a photo of themselves on the World Team holding that blue ribbon.

Suzanne

[Shetlander]

I don't think that a sport bred dog could have stood up to to the training pressures of a novice handler

That's a good point Wendy, but one that apparently the people who do breed for a particular sport haven't realized yet.

If you are discussing holding up to the training pressures of a novice handler in agility, flyball or obedience, the fact is that plenty of sports bred dogs have done quite well in those sports even under those conditions. Coming from the agility/obedience world, most of the dogs I see are sports bred with some that are conformation bred. My friends all have sports bred BC's and with the exception of one, all have very nice off switches. The vast majority seem to enjoy and do well in sports.

So that is a big hurdle to changing behavior because sports folks aren't seeing the problem. They might be willing to admit their dogs can't work stock the way a working bred dog can. Many might say they don't particularly care because they have no intention of sheep herding. Without seeing a problem, sports people aren't going to see the need to change what sorts of dogs they get for their activities.

[SoloRiver]

The Sport Collies aren't going to go away. They suffice for the purposes they are intended for and the people who buy them aren't looking for what we're looking for in a dog, so they won't miss what isn't there.

If it were me, I'd be honest about my opinion, which is that they aren't Border Collies and leave it at that.

[Wendy V]

Shetlander,

I agree with your points. My reference to novice handling was to herding only. My point was there are some whose interests spring from sport events and transfer to herding training; I know many of them personally, and it is how I came into herding as well. Not all sports-bred dogs will make the transition well, particularly of my clumbsy, ill-timed novice training. My dog was particularly forgiving of my many mistakes. To those who have no interest in such matters, it is a moot point.