59 replies to this topic

[Northof49]

I don't know too much about breeding, but I don't know how you would scale a 40lb breed down to a 9lb breed without crossing it with something already in that size range.

They don't even really resemble Aussies anymore, when they get to that size.

RDM

They have been crossed down with smaller breeds similar in looks, etc and then bred back to look sort of like Aussies. A lady not too far from me breeds Mini and Toy Aussies, and you can defintely tell the Toy Aussies have something else in them. I am thinking maybe poms or papillons. All of hers had tails and tail sets like a JRT though. Ugly little things - look like something the cat would drag in from the sloughs.

[dogsofmenace]

I've heard that some people breed Aussies to Chihuahuas. Thats why a lot of them have the huge skulls and bulging eyes. Its just gross.

[ShoresDog]

I've heard that some people breed Aussies to Chihuahuas. Thats why a lot of them have the huge skulls and bulging eyes. Its just gross.

Arrggghhh -- now I'm trying to clear my head of the mental image of THAT act!!

[Janet808]

At least with Aussies, the "standard" for a so called mini Aussie is 25-40lbs. That's border collie sized, and not very "mini" at all - it's just not the same size as the giant show Aussies that go up to 70lbs etc and are all hair. I know many working bred Aussies that are in the 30-40lb range and are certainly not minis.

Then we come to the so called "toy Aussie" and I really do not see how these critters are not infused with some toy-breed blood, like maybe pomeranian or similar. I mean look at them:



"Estimated to be 10" (and) the micro aussies estimated to be 8-9" and 608lbs"

I don't know too much about breeding, but I don't know how you would scale a 40lb breed down to a 9lb breed without crossing it with something already in that size range.

They don't even really resemble Aussies anymore, when they get to that size.

RDM

Looks like a Chu! Just because it has the merle coat, doesn't make it a miniture Aussie. But, I guess there are people out there that will believe anything! That's kind a gross lookin!

[Liz P]

Looks like a Chu! Just because it has the merle coat, doesn't make it a miniture Aussie. But, I guess there are people out there that will believe anything! That's kind a gross lookin!

I think this thread is interesting because some Chi breeders think that merle was introduced to the breed sometime during the time that mini Aussies were created (that breeders fudged some papers). The merle Chis are often huge compared to other colors.

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmm...surely none of those merle chihuhuas are registered with AKC? Wouldn't they require DNA testing if there was such a suspiciion? I know there are other registries out there, but I guess what I'm asking is if Chi breeders are wondering how merle got there, what are they doing about it, if anything?

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

if Chi breeders are wondering how merle got there, what are they doing about it, if anything?

Breeding more dont cha know!! Their rare, and...EXPENSIVE!

[Liz P]

Some are working very hard to get the color banned. It seems that even the heterozygous merles are being born with serious birth defects (often blind, deaf, don't survive the first week).

[Michelle K]

Talking about the breeding in a smaller breed doesn't surprise me at all. That's what happened to the Sheltie. I have 3 Shelties here and they range from 18lbs to 41.5lbs. Based on their history, the breeders wanted to "downsize" the breed, so they bred in Pomeranians and small spitz type dogs, but then found that they lost their "collie" look, so as late as the 1960s, the Rough Coated Collie was being bred in. That's why you find such a fluctuation in sizes of the Shetland Sheepdog. I just hate to see what's happening. It seems like there are too many people out there that are money hungry and don't care the slightest about the dogs. Then you have people that only want these tiny dogs to make a statement (status symbol as such). It's sickening to see what is becoming of our beloved breeds.

BTW, Laura, loved the pics of the Papillon. I'm not a small dog person, but I've always loved watching the Paps and have heard that they're wonderful dogs. I figure that if I ever decide to have a tiny dog, then I'll definitely research that breed. That will be a ways down the road, though.

[theshine]

I had heard about that with shelties...I didn't realize that collies had been bred in as late as the 60's. No wonder I have a 19" sheltie. Thay "toy aussie" looks like a purebred longhair chi...the other one...ick.

[Sue R]

My son has a Sheltie (basically, I believe, backyard-bred) with a long, Rough Collie-style head. He really does quite look like a "miniature collie" as the ignorant call the Shelties. But all the Shelties I have seen that come from "good" (AKC conformation breeders) breeders, have very infantile, puppyish faces - pronounced stops and little, short, rounded muzzles. I guess the style in Shelties now is towards adult dogs that resemble puppies, which is quite consistent with the extremes of miniaturization we are seeing promoted in many breeds.

[Shetlander]

But all the Shelties I have seen that come from "good" (AKC conformation breeders) breeders, have very infantile, puppyish faces - pronounced stops and little, short, rounded muzzles. I guess the style in Shelties now is towards adult dogs that resemble puppies, which is quite consistent with the extremes of miniaturization we are seeing promoted in many breeds.

The "correct" Sheltie head has always been noticibly (to Collie and Sheltie people, anyway) different from a Collie's. The nose shouldn't be as long, the features are softer, the eyes larger, the stop much more obvious and especially in the girls just in general a more dainty look. The AKC conformation Shelties I see in the Midwest don't have especially puppy-like faces or short rounded muzzles, unless they are being compared to a Collie. The 13 - 16 inch height standard is easily missed in both directions with "throwbacks" to both the Spaniel and Collie relatives of yore. It does seem that show dogs tend towards the smaller end of the scale. To me that is what makes some of the show shelties look puppyish -- their small and slight builds.

[Liz P]

I've been told by Sheltie historians that the working Sheltie of the past was a spitz type dog and was made to look like a mini Collie when it was introduced to the show ring. Full sized Collies were crossed with Shelties to achieve this, but back then Collies were much smaller.

Disclaimer, this is second hand info and I could be wrong!

[Shetlander]

I've been told by Sheltie historians that the working Sheltie of the past was a spitz type dog and was made to look like a mini Collie when it was introduced to the show ring. Full sized Collies were crossed with Shelties to achieve this, but back then Collies were much smaller.

Not sure about when Collie's were introduced, but spitz is one of the types of dogs that is commonly attributed to Shelties' heritage.

[Michelle K]

I've been told by Sheltie historians that the working Sheltie of the past was a spitz type dog and was made to look like a mini Collie when it was introduced to the show ring. Full sized Collies were crossed with Shelties to achieve this, but back then Collies were much smaller.

Disclaimer, this is second hand info and I could be wrong!

Not sure about when Collie's were introduced, but spitz is one of the types of dogs that is commonly attributed to Shelties' heritage.

You're both right. Based on the research that I've done the Greenland Yakki dogs (a type of Spitz) played a major role in the origin. The other breeds mentioned have been the Pomeranian, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Welsh and Scotch working Collies, and, of course, the Rough Coated Collie. Most of my information is coming from the books 'Sheltie Talk' and 'The New Shetland Sheepdog'. Based on what they say, the Collies were introduced in the early 1900s.

[Sue R]

Thanks, Liz, it is good to hear from someone who knows. It seems my observations are based on dogs that look either like the ones influenced by infusions from the Rough Collie or those not so influenced.

The particular dogs I was thinking of, from someone who I believe is a pretty well-regarded breeder, are very puppyish in adult appearance. Maybe that fits her market rather than the show ring.

[Shetlander]

The particular dogs I was thinking of, from someone who I believe is a pretty well-regarded breeder, are very puppyish in adult appearance. Maybe that fits her market rather than the show ring.

Oh, it could be the new look that is coming for the breed. <shudder>


My first Sheltie had all kinds of conformation faults, just in his head alone. But still a handsome devil.




My girl is much closer to the show ring ideal, but she's a tad too tall, her nose is a bit too long and her ear set is not correct. But she isn't too far off the mark. Nothing to make a conformation breeder sneer "that's no sheltie" the way at least one did when she saw my male.

[Michelle K]

Oh, it could be the new look that is coming for the breed. <shudder>
My first Sheltie had all kinds of conformation faults, just in his head alone. But still a handsome devil.
My girl is much closer to the show ring ideal, but she's a tad too tall, her nose is a bit too long and her ear set is not correct. But she isn't too far off the mark. Nothing to make a conformation breeder sneer "that's no sheltie" the way at least one did when she saw my male.

I know what you mean. Dreamer has always been complimented on what a beautiful dog he is, but he's too large. He doesn't have the "stop" that is preferred in Shelties, but comes out of some top "show" dogs (further down the line). I just have such issues with the show ring, so I don't really care what they think. They're ruining this breed. Sadly, he lacks any motivation for anything. The first picture is a good stance picture of him, but poor quality due to it taken with my old camera, and he was younger, so his coat wasn't as thick. The 2nd picture shows his coat a little better.


Rain is large, but has nice ears, the "stop", and appears to have good working drive, but she hasn't been tried on any stock. She, also, has what they call a "gay" tail.


Presley is within size, has the "stop", but has erect ears, and her gait isn't quite as smooth as it should be. She came from working dogs off of a farm, which is what I'd prefer to see. Not sure what happened on the coloring in the 2nd picture...it came out brighter for some reason.

Thanks, Liz, it is good to hear from someone who knows.

Hey, Sue, are you saying the rest of us have no clue? I'm just kidding. It is nice to hear from others that have more information. That's how we all learn. I love researching the breeds (Shelties and BCs) history, so I really enjoy reading other comments as well as contributing. I just read that and had to tease you. Sorry!

BTW, I just wanted to apologize to the OP. I didn't mean to hijack the thread by bringing in the Shelties. I think it does relate though when talking about what the breeders are doing to other breeds (like the Sheltie, the Aussies, etc.). At least we're staying with the "herding" breeds!

[Shetlander]

She, also, has what they call a "gay" tail.

When Sassy was a puppy, I told the breeder she carried her tail very high. The breeder scoffed "that just means she's happy." I said, "Then Sassy must be ecstatic." Still, I like her gay tail. It's been a real barometer of her mood and was helpful for me to judge how she is feeling about things when were did agility and obedience.

Presley is within size, has the "stop", but has erect ears, and her gait isn't quite as smooth as it should be. She came from working dogs off of a farm, which is what I'd prefer to see.

Wow, that is the first time I've heard of real working Shelties! I've only come across conformation, performance and pet (and puppy mill ) shelties. Around here they are very much a companion breed. Mine have only ever had little bits of herding instinct or maybe leftover pieces of behaviors. I can't imagine they'd know what to do with sheep or ducks. In fact, I've always been pretty sure both would have been frightened of sheep. But one thing I've learned this past year is until you see the dog on sheep, you don't really know how he'll be. I just see shelties as in general so far removed from their original purpose that their instinct and abilities would be nothing compared to a BC.

BTW, I just wanted to apologize to the OP. I didn't mean to hijack the thread by bringing in the Shelties. I think it does relate though when talking about what the breeders are doing to other breeds (like the Sheltie, the Aussies, etc.). At least we're staying with the "herding" breeds!

It's only fair. Before Quinn, I was a died in the wool (excuse the pun) Sheltie person but now my allegiance has been hijacked by Border Collies (though I still adore Shelties). Besides by page three of a thread, you'd almost expect people's attention to be wandering

Seriously though, Shelties were at one time a sturdy, useful little farm dog very different in looks and abilities than the ones we know today. One thing I've heard repeatedly is the Sheltie's prancing gait is do to very straight shoulders so that the prance more because of how they are structured than a happy attitude or excitement. One person on line has complained that all the Shelties she knows have such straight shoulders that they are pulling up lame at very early ages in performance activities. She went so far as to say that she can't find a sound Sheltie, but I think she must be looking at conformation breeders only. The Sheltie is too successful in sports for soundness to be that rare. My dogs never had issues with injuries. So as with many breeds, there are different strains of Shelties. Which brings us back to breeding for certain characteristics such as "small."

Personally, my biggest beef with conformation breeders in general is how often they totally ignore terrible temperaments and health issues in pursuit of a certain look. This is how so many breeds have been basically ruined.

[Michelle K]

Wow, that is the first time I've heard of real working Shelties! I've only come across conformation, performance and pet (and puppy mill ) shelties. Around here they are very much a companion breed. Mine have only ever had little bits of herding instinct or maybe leftover pieces of behaviors. I can't imagine they'd know what to do with sheep or ducks. In fact, I've always been pretty sure both would have been frightened of sheep. But one thing I've learned this past year is until you see the dog on sheep, you don't really know how he'll be. I just see shelties as in general so far removed from their original purpose that their instinct and abilities would be nothing compared to a BC.

Exactly! I'm still trying to find out about introducing to stock. I haven't been able to find anyone around here that would allow me to try the Shelties. I emailed about checking on herding lessons and clinics for Nykie, but haven't heard back yet. Of course, the people I contacted are extremely busy with trialing and everything, so I'm just sitting back waiting. I loved seeing Presley's family out in the fields and around stock. It was a rare sight. I'm not having a lot of luck on tracking Rain's family. I have a 5 generation pedigree on her, but I'm not being able to find out if they were worked or not. She has a strong herding drive...more than any other Sheltie I've ever worked with. I love it! I say herding drive in the text that that is what it appears to be...not based on actual ability. Here are a couple of pics of her when she went into that mode with Presley...these were just fun playing time pictures, but during it, Rain was very pushy on cutting Pres off and very quick to redirect her. I wish I'd had a video camera.

It's only fair. Before Quinn, I was a died in the wool (excuse the pun) Sheltie person but now my allegiance has been hijacked by Border Collies (though I still adore Shelties). Besides by page three of a thread, you'd almost expect people's attention to be wandering

Seriously though, Shelties were at one time a sturdy, useful little farm dog very different in looks and abilities than the ones we know today. One thing I've heard repeatedly is the Sheltie's prancing gait is do to very straight shoulders so that the prance more because of how they are structured than a happy attitude or excitement. One person on line has complained that all the Shelties she knows have such straight shoulders that they are pulling up lame at very early ages in performance activities. She went so far as to say that she can't find a sound Sheltie, but I think she must be looking at conformation breeders only. The Sheltie is too successful in sports for soundness to be that rare. My dogs never had issues with injuries. So as with many breeds, there are different strains of Shelties. Which brings us back to breeding for certain characteristics such as "small."

Personally, my biggest beef with conformation breeders in general is how often they totally ignore terrible temperaments and health issues in pursuit of a certain look. This is how so many breeds have been basically ruined.

I was the same way until Nykie came into my life. Each breed brings something different to the table. I'm falling more and more in love with the Border Collie, but I still love my Shelties, so I doubt that I could ever have just one breed in my home. Now, don't get me wrong, I do love my Schnauzer. He's what I've considered my heart dog for years, but once his time is up (which sadly his health isn't too great and he is getting a little age on him now...be 8 in March), then I'll only have the "herding dogs". One, there will never be another Koty and two, I just prefer a herding breed over a terrier. I agree with you on the breeders. In this area, it's horrible. I would love to be a part of bringing the true Sheltie back into this area, but it's a long road to travel. I've spent the past 2yrs heavily researching the breed. I had about 9 years of experience living with them or being around them prior to that, but that wasn't reading everything that I could get my hands on until the past 2yrs. I'm still trying to learn the genetic side of things (alot of which is still hard to understand) and am still trying to find someone to help me with the herding side, because if (and that's a big IF) I get involved, then it will be done right. I refuse to add to the mess that these breeders are making. One thing you mentioned is the ignoring of temperaments....that is so true. How many times have you seen shy or skittish Shelties? I've seen them all too frequently. That doesn't even touch on the health issues (that you mentions) that come around like CEA/PRA, Hyperthyroidism, Dysplasia, VWA (which is still not very common in this breed, but it does happen), and more.