Pack dynamics question

[Laurae]

I've got some interesting pack dynamics going on right now, and I'm hoping to describe it well enough to give an idea of what's going on—and then maybe someone can tell me. I have three dogs, Sophie (the queen bitch), Taz (younger dog I've had since puppyhood, now 3), and Craig (older dog I got last summer, 9). Sophie gets along with everyone; the boys respect her authority. Taz and Craig do not like one another. I think it stems from Craig's habit of nipping at Taz in the butt whenever Taz is playing at all (and Taz loves to play; he can entertain himself for hours with pretty much any old inatimate object that bounces; he now suspends play whenever he is sharing any space with Craig). Taz has responded by lifting his lip whenever Craig gets within about three or four feet of him. I totally understand Taz's point, but I tell everyone to knock it off if I see any signs of hostility.

 

They got into one fight, when we were at a clinic in July and they were in the clinic host's huge yard. They were the only dogs out and I just wasn't paying attention. Actually, I had let my guard down after being warned about Craig and having him a couple of months without incident. Neither dog was injured, though Taz did have traces of blood on his soaken wet head. Craig had nary a damp spot, so I'm pretty sure Craig was the aggressor and Taz was, um, the fight loser.

 

Since then, they've had a sort of uneasy truce, as described above. But it feels like things might be changing now, or maybe tension is just building. Both boys are vying for my attention with sideways looks at each other (which I discourage by making both dogs leave me alone). They are giving each other a wide berth and ducking their heads when looking at one another. Taz will not walk around Craig to get to his crate. But he is also sometimes approaching Craig with a forward posture and a quickly wagging tail. Is he challenging Craig? Or are they getting ready to fight again the second I let my guard down again (which I'm obviously not doing right now). Is there anything I can do to diffuse these tensions?

 

Help. Thanks.

[Dixie_Girl]

Laura, I sympathize with you completely. Skip is my trouble maker! I've had Jackson since he was 7wks, he's 3 now, and Skip since he was 9wks, he's 18mos. now. Jackson has never had an interrest in fighting anyone. Just throw the damn toy, or let me herd sheep(or chickens now!) When it comes to toys, Skip always cedest to Jackson, everything else, he bullies him. They have never gotten into it because Jackson will just growl and I hear it and make them knock it off. Wish I could help.

[mbc1963]

with sideways looks at each other (which I discourage by making both dogs leave me alone). They are giving each other a wide berth and ducking their heads when looking at one another. Taz will not walk around Craig to get to his crate. But he is also sometimes approaching Craig with a forward posture and a quickly wagging tail.

 

Interesting! I only have one dog, but he's not easy... and your descriptions sound like the way he acts when he and another dog he meets are just about to fly at each other and fight. Poor you!

 

On the other hand, the "forward posture, quickly wagging tail" from my dog usually means that he's meeting a dog he WANTS to be friends with, though he's very tense and not sure of himself, and still ready to take the other dog on if need be. Often, Buddy will approach with forward posture, stiff gait, and stiff, high tail... and then in a few seconds, the stiff tail starts to wag, and I know that Buddy, for whatever reason, is excited and happy to meet the dog instead of angry at the dog. Sometimes it can still de-evolve into a fight... it's the stiffness, I think, that I worry most about.

 

Sounds like a tough situation. Good luck.

 

Mary

[kelpiegirl]

Where is his tail when he wags it? Is it straight up in the air, or down? When one of my Kelpies hopes I will get up in the morning, she quickly wags the end of her tail- it is down.

 

I have two that don't get along. Tail above the level of the back is a no no. Anyone who has tail like that, when in vicinity of dog they don't like, has it made clear that THAT particular garbage is not allowed. All I have to do is snap and point at Lucy if it's her. What you should do, is get very comfortable with seeing the small (really tiny) nuances in how they hold themselves. Basically, they have to think that you can read their mind Make sure that Craig is not purposely blocking Taz's access to his crate. Think of these guys like impish toddlers- you know the kind- they run up to the other and pinch him, or pull the hair, and then run? I believe that the dogs can get live together, but you have to be supreme ruler, and not let any aggression even think of starting. So, even though your question is a good one- my answer would be NO! There will NOT be any fights because you won't allow it. You are in charge. With my two now, I know where/when it can happen- and for me, it's when I first get home, and am distracted- Soooooo, I ensure that they are separated, and once everything is calmed down, then we are fine. On each dog, work on one on one time- obedience, and have them work for their dinners, etc. That way, when you tell them to knock it off, they will immediately listen. Just this morning, I was getting ready for work, and Lucy's tail was straight up- Nikke was in the kitchen, and who knows WHY Lucy got a wild hair, but she was immediately chastised. Watch those tails. Also, notice if hair is up on anyone. If hair is up, down along the back/tail, that's fear, and that means that dog is getting UN-friendly vibes from the other. Oh the joys of pack dynamics.

[Laurae]

Thanks for the replies. Both dogs do immediately knock everything off if I tell them to, or really even if I give them "the look." I don't think they would actually break out into a fight right in front of me, though I suppose it's certainly possible if I'm distracted. It's more of a likelihood when they're out in the backyard. I pretty much monitor their activites in the yard, which is easy because Craig always wants to be rightbymyside at all times, but the yard is where most of the butt-biting takes place. I can go to a high alert protocol, whereby I keep the boys separated at all times, but it's difficult to maintain, so I'd only like to do it if it's absolutely necessary.

 

Some clarification: Taz's tail is up. It actually does look a little like he is soliciting play, but I just can't imagine he would solicit play from Craig. Craig generally makes play stop for Taz. Taz plays with Sophie all the time. Craig does play with Sophie once in a while, but I'd faint dead away if I looked up to find Taz and Craig wresting in play. I don't think Craig is intentionally blocking Taz's access. Taz just doesn't want to be in close proximity with Craig. He'll sometimes run past quickly to get to his crate. And Taz sometimes doesn't want to enter the room at all if Craig is there, even if I call him. Craig often seems oblivious to everything except me. I don't think he is always trying to intimidate Taz, but that Taz just sees Craig as a constant low-level threat. Poor Tazzy! Taz is a confident dog in other situations, though, so I wonder if he's decided he's had enough of Craig and is trying to take back some power.

 

Another element may be that I've been really busy finishing up a freelance project and we've had a bunch of snow the past couple of weeks, and I haven't been able to get the boys out to exercise (or work) as much as usual. I'm taking them out this morning for a quick work session in the freezing cold snow (grumble, grumble, what I do for my dogs ). I guess I'll just make sure to watch them and try to look for those more subtle signs that tension may be building. And be ready to keep them separate if necessary...

[Pippin's person]

Hey Laura,

 

What you have going on sounds similar to what we have with Hamish and Rafe (a little different because Hamish and Rafe are pretty much the same age and they do also play with one another). The thing that I always find hard is knowing what their actual dynamics are--I think a lot goes on in dog packs that we frankly can't understand because we're not dogs. What I generally perceive to be going on with Hamish and Rafe is that they are pretty close in the pack order and maybe that order isn't entirely stable so they are both seeing if they can be the ones to get a promotion or possibly that Hamish thinks that if only he got in one more cheap shot to show what a numbskull Rafe is, then he'd be the assistant manager instead of Rafe

 

.Maybe something like that is going on with Craig and Taz, particularly as Taz is coming into adulthood and Craig is becoming more of senior? It might not be that Craig is a threat so much as maybe getting weak--or maybe some of both? Or maybe what you perceive as Taz getting the short end of the stick is really just Taz accepting the pack order.

 

Since the only way we humans can get information about what is going on is by interpreting what we see and hear, I generally think the best we can do is maintain consistent house rules to the best of our ability and manage what we can't train. So much of what goes on with dogs and their relationships is outside of our understanding, I think (that's just my opinion of course--i don't have hard evidence one way or another). I also have some sense that it's their "right" to work out their relationships on their own as long as it doesn't interfere with my rights to my own house rules (to the degree that makes sense).

 

That being said, we also tell ours to knock it off if anything like lip curling, growling, looming, staring, etc. is going on and if they don't, then there are consequences (we use negative punishment as much as possible, but sometimes we also use positive punishment) In our case, it's usually Rafe who looms and stares and Hamish who gives cheap hock bites and lip curls. When the tension seems to be rising, we make them both lie down and then we leash one of them, take one inside, crate one or both, etc.. We're lucky in that both can have their attention diverted fairly easily with balls and, thank the heavens, they prefer different types of balls and have no interest whatsoever in the dispreferred ball type.

 

The actual fights we've had were all over resources (food mostly) combined with escalating tension, usually at the door. The fights are awful to observe and we have had to train ourselves not to yell and run around like chickens without heads. Until now, though, it's only been mega-slobber and very little actual damage (except to our blood pressure readings). I

 

I'll say,too, that when I don't have time to pay attention to them, I just crate the one I think is being the biggest jerk/dork at the time and go about my business. Jean Donalson has a pretty helpful book called, fittingly enough, "Fight" that you might find helpful--we found some good diversionary tactics there.

 

What does Sophie do when the boys seem to have rising tensions?

[Kyrasmom]

Around two and three is when I've seen changes in pack dynamics with my crew as the younger ones "grow up". For the most part, I've been successful with diffusion and distraction and little attention to either of the challengees. To some extent, it's a natural evolution and they do need to find their place in the pack, it's not necessarily going to escalate to violence, but someone will need to back down and/or relax with the fact that there is change going on.

 

It's really hard for us, especially when there is nothing really clear to correct. I'd say just keep a close eye on it and make sure it doesn't escalate and it should go back to some form of normalcy on its own.

 

Maria

[hoku's mum]

What caught my eye in this is the way that Taz will not walk around Craig to go to his crate. Craig may be blocking access as a way to control Taz (as he seems to be using the nipping to control Taz's play). I know that Hoku is a passageway guarder, and it took us awhile to catch on, because it looks like he is just innocently lying in the doorway or hall, but he effectively stops Gussy from moving freely around the house. We have put a stop to that, but he still trys to control things in very subtle ways. Personally, I won't tolerate the control stuff between our dogs, but I guess it's a fine line between control and just asserting your pack position.

 

I think Robin maybe on to something with Craig getting older and Taz coming into his adulthood, the dynamics may be shifting. There is just so much we can't understand.

[Laurae]

Thanks Robin, Maria, and Kristin. It does make sense that the dynamics may be changing due to Taz's age. He has been a very slow-maturing pup. I hope they can settle things without any kind of blowout...Sophie just ignores them (which, frankly, is a bit odd, as she generally likes to be in the thick of anything going on). Though it's never stopped her before, maybe she understands it's nothing to do with her.

 

I will pick up Fight! (may as well complete my Jean Donaldson library). If Craig is subtly blocking Taz's access, I want to be able to recognize and stop that. But, honestly, Craig is usually up on the couch with me, often napping. Taz pokes his head into the living room and looks to see if the coast is clear. Sometimes he enters, sometimes he won't, and usually if he enters, he races quickly to his crate on the other side of the couch. Obviously, I would not like a big fight to occur, but I would love to see some easing of the tension between the two and particularly an end to what looks to me like Taz feeling so intimidated by Craig that he is cautious about even being in the same room (regardless of whether Craig is doing anything on purpose).

 

Fortunately, these are dogs, not bitches, so I feel there's at least a chance they'll continue to sort things out until a pecking order is more firmly established and then they might relax. One can hope...

 

ETA: Interestingly, when they're in any kind of working context, all hostilities go out the window completely. They're practically buddies. This was taken yesterday morning (granted, they're not exactly loving on each other, but they are happy to be in close proximity with each other):

[blackacre]

Ummm, I'd say you have a nasty fight brewing. Usually if it comes to that, it will settle the dominance issue, but you might not like how it shakes out. The vet bills suck too and, worst of all, you've created a fighter where before, at least one of them was not. I speak from personal experience. I made some mistakes with my first male--out of ignorance--and the effects linger to this day. Since then I've had at least 8 or 9 intact males go through my house and have never had problems aside from this one dog. However, since he IS the first, and the king of the world (my world, anyway), the others are the ones who have restricted or highly supervised access, for their own safety.

So, be aware and watch it: bringing an older intact male into a household with another intact male is always rife with danger, even if the "intruder" was not a fighter in his previous situation. You may be missing some of the subtler signs and allowing tension to build.

A

[Laurae]

That's so not what I wanted to hear

Craig does have a history of fighting. He doesn't start the fighting, but he does start the fights, if this makes any sense, because he does things that other dogs don't want to put up with (mainly the butt nipping). He also doesn't stop fighting on his own; he doesn't stop if the other dog "concedes," though he stops immediately if a person says "hey!" or otherwise interrupts the fight. Taz has only ever been in the one fight with Craig. He generally walks away from situations rather than engaging in confrontational behavior. Also, Craig is neutered, though Taz is intact.

 

It is not as though they cannot share the same space at all, though, and I am sorry if I have created that impression. Most of the time, they are able to pass each other without incident and can go out an pee together or even wait for me to prepare their dinner together. But things are definitely changing. Taz has started lying down in front of the coffee table that is situated in front of the couch, which Craig is often lying on. This is new. Given everything else going on, I'm not sure whether it's good or not. Or, rather, I think it's good, but he definitely seems to have decided to try to reclaim some space, which may have additional ramifications. I will try to be a bit more vigilant about their interactions until I think things have stabilized.

[blackacre]

Well, not trying to bum you out, just hoping to give you the benefit of my own experience with many many intact males in a house situation, sometimes 3 or 4 at a time. Well, always, actually, because I only have males (although at the moment they are all dogs I raised myself, which reduces the tension significantly). And of course, I haven't actually observed your two, just going on what you've described. To me, it sounds like they've come to an uneasy temporary accommodation that has the *potential* to flare up, especially in a situation like feeding time. Yikes, I don't think I'd EVER start doling out food with potentially antagonistic males waiting around, just to take one example. And, I'd agree with others that Taz is getting in touch with his inner stud dog, which is always, shall we say, a dangerous phase.

Also of course, if Craig was neutered late in life, there will be little appreciable difference in his behaviour.

So, take it as you will. Whatever else, it's a fascinating lesson in dog behaviour to watch this kind of stuff and get good at reading it. In more general terms, it's the essence what I love about training dogs.

Good luck,

A

[bc4pack]

FWIW, males for the most part will scrap and be done. Inter-bitch aggression is usually

A LOT worse... basically wanting to eliminate the other from residence on the planet.

There are always those exceptions though...

 

If you would like some professional trainer insight you could join the Agbeh Yahoo Group. Heck

it's worth lurking in too.... Oh Agbeh stands for 'aggressive behavior in dogs'...

 

Not saying you need it mind you,just throwing it out there.