18 replies to this topic

[Alaska]

Check 'em out:

Terrierman's Daily Dose

Border Wars Part I

Border Wars Part II

[Sue R]

I did and thought them "not bad". However, I did object to the comments about dog sports being "proving grounds" for the Border Collie, while deriding trials as a proving ground and most trialling folks as being "hobbyists".

While many trialists are essentially hobbyists, in general they are utilizing sound principles of animal husbandry, dog training/handling, and breeding practices to produce good dogs. So, while they have "day jobs", that doesn't mean that they don't employ the principles and practicalities that are used by the full-time farmer/rancher in their stockwork. It also doesn't mean that the dogs are not as essential for the "small farmer/hobbyist" as they are for the full-time farmer/rancher.

We qualify as hobbyists with our small herd of Angus cows, and day jobs, but that doesn't make the dogs any less useful for us on our small farm in terms of handling our stock. It does mean that our living isn't as dependent on them like it may be for a full-time farmer/rancher.

Just because the Border Collie excels at dog sports does not make that an appropriate venue for "proving" dogs, at least not when it comes to breeding. And, while the blogger feels that ABCA and others have "turned their backs" on the dog sports people, boards like this one show that at least some number of "working dog folks" have no problem with the use of the dogs in dog sports, as long as the breeding remains the domain of those with proven working dogs.

I would assume the AKC apologists are all over the book, like yellow-jackets at a picnic...

[sea4th]

Uh, an interesting bit of info here. The owner of the Border Dog Wars 1 & 2 links, was a person who a couple of years ago came to these boards, said a lot of inflammatory crap and was either kicked off or left on his own volition. (I don't remember). He was here under the name "destructo". He subsequently set out to buy, and did, a border collie from a show breeder and one from a working breeder, with the intent of breeding the two together in an attempt to prove everyone wrong, that he, a relative newcomer to the breed ("relative" because he is not totally new -- he had a border collie growing up). knew more than those with years in the breed. He is intelligent, brings up some good points, but full of shit at the same time.

It appears that now he has made it his mission in life to be the "voice of reason" for border collies. I don't know how else to put it.

[sea4th]

I would assume the AKC apologists are all over the book, like yellow-jackets at a picnic...

I rather like the analogy of "flies on a dog turd" myself.

[jdarling]

Thanks Vicki ... I was just doing a search for "Stanford" because I remembered our friend "Christopher" (aka "Destructo") from Colorado. For those of you who don't remember ... Here's a thread he participated in...

I think the latter part of your characterization of him nails it square on the head.

Jodi

[Sue R]

I rather like the analogy of "flies on a dog turd" myself.

Hmm, I had originally thought of "blowflies on carrion" but, since I like the book so much, I didn't like using such a negative connotation. That probably doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but it suited me. Since the yellow-jackets were so determined about the donuts at the Finals, that image sprang to mind.

You guys are so much more discerning than I am about the internet. So "Destructo" is/was intent on bringing pups into the world to prove a point? Well, that's responsible breeding for you - NOT! Enough said...

[Smokjbc]

I dismissed "Christopher" as a total idiot once he called Nop's Trials another "sappy dog story" akin to "Babe". Maybe he should read it. He spouted several mistruths about how dogs work in this country, his comments about most dogs not working in fenceless areas for one, and how none work at a great distance alone. It seems to me he could have benefited from reading Mr. Macaig's A Useful Dog in which he details a long distance sheep drive to range by a "real" shepherd and his many dogs. Perhaps he should visit trials with 800+ outruns and see how "small" they really are.

I did think the first review (by Terrierman) was decent though.

[jay7347]

Hey, thanks for the links. Even though I've had 3 1/2 BC's and am working on getting another rescue as we speak, (meet and greet tomorrow,) I always like to be better educated on the history of the breed. Heck, that's why I come here to listen from the pros. :-) I think this stuff is plum fascinating. Thanks for the post!
-jay

So this destructo dude came from my neck of the woods in Colorado... groan...

[Eileen Stein]

I suppose reviewing McCaig's book is a good way to get traffic for a heretofore unvisited blog, but I can't help thinking it would be too bad if destructo's audience was thereby increased. Readers of the blog might be convinced by his know-it-all attitude that he really did know much of anything. The subjects he raises are interesting, but his treatment of the subjects is crippled by ignorance. For example, his main thesis in the "Part II" piece rests (or wobbles) on his assertion that McCaig came to "play" at sheepfarming as a hobbyist, even though in fact McCaig had a commercial flock before he got his first dog (as he clearly says in his book -- needed the dog to help with the sheep) and that flock was a major source of his income until very recently. His ignorance about trials and their function is evident throughout the rest of the piece. Another example -- elsewhere in the blog he criticizes the ABCA's expulsion of four puppymillers, saying that the ABCA only did it to prevent "lost revenue to the registry when a breeder will combine multiple litters from two or more bitches and register them as one litter from one bitch to save money using the single litter registration price." This is utterly bizarre. The idea that this was the ABCA's motivation is pulled out of thin air, as anyone knowledgeable about the registry would know. The ABCA does not have a "single litter registration price" -- all pups are registered as individual dogs, so the fees for registering 8 pups from two different litters are identical to the fees for registering 8 pups from one litter. This is evident from the ABCA's website listing of its registration fees. The fact that he would make up something as far-fatched as this out of whole cloth and state it with such certainty shows that his motivation to trash the registry comes first, and his "facts" follow from it.

So I will be disappointed if destructo reaps hits and comments from these reviews. OTOH, Terrierman has long been a favorite of mine, and always has interesting things to say about working dogs and AKC culture, so I was delighted to see his review. Terrierman's review was picked up by Gina Spadafori in her widely-read blog, which is also good.

[ShoresDog]

I did enjoy Terrierman's blog, though. A Proposed New AKC Class: "Working Dogs Ruined by the Show Ring" -- it could almost be the title of a whole new blog thread, sadly.

[Sue R]

In reading some more of "Destructo's" blogs, I see that he finds the dog sports (and pet, I assume) owners to be the only responsible ones - you know, the ones who let the dog sleep on the bed, give it a fulfilling life, keep the dogs lifelong, etc. Of course, he seems quite the dog sports apologist all around. I guess he figures that dog sports folks, including dog sports breeders, will be the salvation and future of the breed. Heaven help us...

While "Destructo's" blogs are well-written, they are not without error and certainly not without obvious bias. Like any other similar internet website, they could certainly mislead the ignorant and the novice.

Terrierman has written some wonderful work in the past. He seems to have his feet on the ground, so to speak, where an earthdog person's feet should be.

[SoloRiver]

This Destructo guy refers to Bill Berhow as a "dog sport person?" That's pretty rich.

[sea4th]

Destructo is a legend in his own mind.

[AK dog doc]

I'm glad someone pointed out that Christopher is (was?) "destructo". I'd forgotten what an idiot he is. All his assertions that drowning is more humane (not) and reliable (not) than euthanizing with medications (yes, and how many animals have you personally euthanatized? Where'd you get your veterinary degree?); his assertions that flyball and conformatin titles are just as much an accomplishment as herding titles (where does that makes sense in the realm of even ordinary common sense, let alone the world of a knowledgeable dog person?); his contentions that no one would notice if you bred BCs to Berners to get a bigger BC and that it would IMPROVE BCs to do so via introducing "hybrid vigor" (hey, maybe you want to pick a breed not so heavily laden with serious genetic trouble for your argument, since using one that IS a genetic minefield makes your argument even weaker than it is already); his general arrgance and apparant astonishment that we did not all immediately stand around admiring his alleged intellectual superiority and "built"ness (why did we need to know that, exactly?), nor otherwise seem impressed with his supposed dog knowledge and general erudition... it was an astonishing tour de force in ignorant and stubborn self-importance, in the absence of any leavening qualities such as humor, an honest willingness to learn, or any apparant common sense or dog sense whatsoever. Now that I know the source I won't waste time on reading his blog (although no doubt it would prove quite entertaining in a sort of horrifying way, if it follows in the same tone as his posts here did, I can't picture it informing me in any useful way). I did find the one by terrierman quite excellent, however, and I really enjoyed reading that. Thanks for posting that link. Really HAVE to get that book. Oh, wait, I forgot.... McCaig only got sheep to work his dog on. He's probably not an expert. (Jeez, at least get your facts right before you start making an idiot of yourself publicly, eh?)

[jdarling]

If what McCaig says is true, then I have about 9 more years before I could call myself a trialer and my dogs have 2-3 more years before they should step out on the trialing field.

With a show dog? I'd like to see that!

Jodi

[PennyT]

I resurrected this thread for two reasons. First, in the PDE/Crufts thread Ooky mentioned cognitive dissonance. Second, I googled the Crufts vet checks. To my amazement, a nameless know nothing now has a modestly successful blog in which he lambastes, for example, the lying Clumber spaniel breeder while continuing to maintain that breeding Border collies for sport is dandy and simply something on the order of parallel evolution.

Then I looked up cognitive dissonance to make sure I remembered what it was with reasonable accuracy. I did. The blogger is, indeed, like the fox in the fable who couldn't reach the grapes.

This led me to a question: Has the person become respectable? Is it possible?

Checking his links, I noted a reference to retrieverman but none (I think none, I could have missed it) to terrierman. This makes me wonder about retrieverman's reputation.

I'm pretty sure there are a number of dog blog readers on these Boards. Will someone voice an opinion on the two blogs in question. I'm avoiding the name of the first one as best I can. If you don't know it, private message me through the Boards system.

[Journey]

No, the first one is still not respectable. As for the second, the only place I've seen it, that I recall, is on the PDE blog.

[Mark Billadeau]

an old post from a blog which was removed but still lives in the ether.
http://archive.feedb...4110395#78489_0

[PennyT]

My word. Thanks, Journey and thanks, Mark. That was what I wanted to know. The piece on both bloggers is a gem.

About 2 years ago, I took a brief look at the know nothing's take on Border collie history and noted the assertions were so far off plumb as not to be worth reading through. He seemed to think he had proven that all old photos and portraits of Scotch collies, for example one of Queen Victoria's (I forget which one, maybe a dog called Sharp), showed conclusively that all were Border collies on the basis of looks. He was naive yet wrote with such foolish conviction that I couldn't stomach further reading.