207 replies to this topic

[juliepoudrier]

Kristi,
You are certainly not alone, but as individuals, all I think we can do is try not to contribute to the problem ourselves and perhaps use peer pressure to try and get other working dog folks not to contribute as well. If enough working dog folk would do that, then the influx of working dogs into sport lines would at least decline a bit, and eventually the sport breeders would just use their own lines, and then voila! we'll have three separate "lines" of border collies: working, sport, and conformation. While it's easy to avoid breeding to conformation lines, it's not so easy to stay away from the sport breeders. We often comment (on this forum, for example) that pups from working litters that don't go to working homes are certainly suitable for sport homes. The sticky part comes when we allow those pups to go fully registered (i.e., without a nonbreeding status on the registration) and without S/N contracts. That's how the working lines will continue to flow into the sport lines. Since some breeders make a lot of money doing just that, it will be very difficult to stop it, IMO. Individuals can do their part, but unless the working community comes together as a whole to put pressure on its peers not to buy into the sport collie culture or make it easy for them to continue to use our lines, what you're seeing will continue. I do think that probably the sport lines will eventually be the lines from which sport wannabes will buy their pups, and just like with the conformation lines (which also started with good working dogs) the split will come so that you'll still find good working names way back in the pedigree, but all the close up stuff will be out of those sport kennels. After all, human nature will dictate a philosophy that breeding awesome sport dog from kennel A to awesome sport dog from kennel B will be more likely to produce awesome sport puppies than breeding the dog from kennel A to a dog from strictly working lines (which is still the case today, I think). So no great answers here--I'm just trying as an individual to make sure I do the right thing and encourage others I know to do the same, including not buying from "working breeders" who sell most of their pups into sport homes and yet still call themselves working dog breeders.

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There is also the fact that some working lines in fact make superior sport dogs, and the advanced level sport people know exactly what those lines are. Nothing wrong with that, until the working breeders yield to pressure to breed mediocre working dogs to supply the sport folks what they want. It's tempting because there's big money in it, and after all the dogs in question work, right? But it should not be our goal to produce mediocrity for any reason, or it will spread through the gene pool as it has through other working breeds.

[Pearse]

This is an entirely stupid argument.

Conformation breeders will breed Border Collies for conformation regardless of whether we think it is wrong or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs are ugly or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs have a horrible life going from show ring to show ring. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, show, and train conformation Barbie Border Collies, and because they can.

Sport breeders will breed Border Collies for Agility, Frisbee, Doggie Dancing, Dock Diving, Puppy Polo, CaniCross or whatever other games someone can come with that someone can do with their dog. They will claim it is "work" and that their best dogs come from "strong working lines". They'll do this regardless of whether we think they are delusional, and whether we think they are ruining the breed. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, and train Sport Border Colllies, and because they can.

"Herding" breeders will breed Border Collies for "herding" because they won a ProNovice trial once or show interest in stock and their great-great-great-great-great granddaddy was ##Wiston Cap. They'll do this regardless of whether or not we label them "backyard breeders" and mock them. Why will they do this? Because they can, because they think their dog is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and because someone will buy their dogs.

People who want Border Collies who can work stock and want to do so, will go to the people who have been consistently breeding good working dogs and buy from them. Some of them will take the time, and make the effort, to learn what it takes to breed good working dogs so that there will be another generation of a small group of breeders who produce good working dogs. Why will they do this? Because they need good working dogs, and because they care about the breed. They rarely produce enough dogs to make any money off it. Some can make money training and teaching.

All we can do is continue to get the word out that such people exist and guide people who need good dogs to them. Let the sport breeders breed the Sport Border Collie. Pretty soon they'll all be Border Jacks or some such thing. Let the conformation breeders breed the Barbie Border Collie, Pretty soon there will be three (or more) breeds. The Border Collie breed is only 150 or so years old. That's about 30 generations. The Australian Barbie Colllie is well on its way to being a new breed. The sooner the better.

Unless every breeder of working dogs is prepared to either not sell into pet, sport, or show homes, or only to do so with a strict and enforceable "spay/neuter" contract, and not to let their dogs be used for breeding with sport or conformation dogs this will continue.

As for the annual round of "look at the ugly conformation dogs, aren't we superior with our non-fluffy, covered in shit, skinny "working" dogs", it's pointless, arrogant, and juvenile.

The best way to support the betterment of the breed is to get out there and work your damn dogs and let the general public see you doing it. The conformation and sport breeders won't go away as long as there are prizes to be won and money to be made so don't waste your breath on them. Spend your effort on supporting the true working breeders and, more importantly, real working dogs.

Pearse

[Little Bo Boop]

This is an entirely stupid argument.

Conformation breeders will breed Border Collies for conformation regardless of whether we think it is wrong or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs are ugly or not, and regardless of whether we think their dogs have a horrible life going from show ring to show ring. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, show, and train conformation Barbie Border Collies, and because they can.

Sport breeders will breed Border Collies for Agility, Frisbee, Doggie Dancing, Dock Diving, Puppy Polo, CaniCross or whatever other games someone can come with that someone can do with their dog. They will claim it is "work" and that their best dogs come from "strong working lines". They'll do this regardless of whether we think they are delusional, and whether we think they are ruining the breed. Why will they do this? It strokes their ego to win ribbons and titles, and it fills their pocketbooks to sell, and train Sport Border Colllies, and because they can.

"Herding" breeders will breed Border Collies for "herding" because they won a ProNovice trial once or show interest in stock and their great-great-great-great-great granddaddy was ##Wiston Cap. They'll do this regardless of whether or not we label them "backyard breeders" and mock them. Why will they do this? Because they can, because they think their dog is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and because someone will buy their dogs.

People who want Border Collies who can work stock and want to do so, will go to the people who have been consistently breeding good working dogs and buy from them. Some of them will take the time, and make the effort, to learn what it takes to breed good working dogs so that there will be another generation of a small group of breeders who produce good working dogs. Why will they do this? Because they need good working dogs, and because they care about the breed. They rarely produce enough dogs to make any money off it. Some can make money training and teaching.

All we can do is continue to get the word out that such people exist and guide people who need good dogs to them. Let the sport breeders breed the Sport Border Collie. Pretty soon they'll all be Border Jacks or some such thing. Let the conformation breeders breed the Barbie Border Collie, Pretty soon there will be three (or more) breeds. The Border Collie breed is only 150 or so years old. That's about 30 generations. The Australian Barbie Colllie is well on its way to being a new breed. The sooner the better.

Unless every breeder of working dogs is prepared to either not sell into pet, sport, or show homes, or only to do so with a strict and enforceable "spay/neuter" contract, and not to let their dogs be used for breeding with sport or conformation dogs this will continue.

As for the annual round of "look at the ugly conformation dogs, aren't we superior with our non-fluffy, covered in shit, skinny "working" dogs", it's pointless, arrogant, and juvenile.

The best way to support the betterment of the breed is to get out there and work your damn dogs and let the general public see you doing it. The conformation and sport breeders won't go away as long as there are prizes to be won and money to be made so don't waste your breath on them. Spend your effort on supporting the true working breeders and, more importantly, real working dogs.

Pearse

Can I get an AMEN! Very well said.


Betty

[Eileen Stein]

This is an entirely stupid argument.

Most of what you go on to say here is entirely consistent with what everyone else has said in this discussion (not really an argument, I would say). What you are overlooking is that the categories of "conformation breeders," "sport breeders," "herding breeders" and working breeders, and their buyers, are not fixed. They are fluid and changing. There will always be some people in each category, but their numbers can be affected by many different types of pressures. I think it's in the interest of the working border collie breed to try to influence people away from the first three categories, and thereby push against the marginalization of the working border collie. You may feel differently, but calling our efforts stupid will not change my mind.

Also, I've never been able to see why one must choose between engaging in this type of discussion and "supporting the true working breeders and, more importantly, real working dogs." Surely one can do both. In fact, I would say that doing the first is one form of doing the second.

[BustopherJones]

From Wikpedia: Judging - Dog-show judges attempt to identify dogs who epitomize the published standards for each breed. This can be challenging, because some judgements must necessarily be subjective. For example, what exactly entails a "full coat" or a "cheerful attitude", which are descriptions that could be found in the breed specifications...Strictly speaking, a dog show is not exactly a comparison of one dog to another, it is a comparison of each dog to a judge's concept of the ideal specimen as dictated by the breed standard, containing the attributes of a given breed and a list of conformation points.

Who establishes the "standards" for Border Collies? How does one set forth physical appearance standards and judge a dog whose primary traits, and the reasons for its evolution, lie in its intelligence, work ethic, and athletic ability? How does one judge these traits by parading a dog around a ring on the end of a choke chain?

I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I wholeheartedly agree with Eileen on her philosophy on this issue. I chose to add Annie to our family because of the breed's true characteristics and traits, and specifically went to an ABCA-register breeder rather than an AKC-registered breeder for that reason. Annie would never pass an arbitrary AKC conformance test; but what she is makes her the most beautiful dog in the world to me.

[Carson Crazies]

I'd have to say that I'm firmly in the camp of being concerned about the sport breeders. I think it's every bit as dangerous and detrimental to the border collie - if not even more so. The conformation crowd is already pretty well seperated from the working dogs - but the sport ones not as much so.

I'd say a combination of this

Unless every breeder of working dogs is prepared to either not sell into pet, sport, or show homes, or only to do so with a strict and enforceable "spay/neuter" contract, and not to let their dogs be used for breeding with sport or conformation dogs this will continue.

and this

The best way to support the betterment of the breed is to get out there and work your damn dogs and let the general public see you doing it.

makes for a reasonable defense. Well, that, and what we're doing right here. Yes, sometimes it gets tiring, but I firmly believe that every time we have this discussion or one like it (and there's been a lot of really great things coming out of this thread) that people are reached and attitudes and actions are changed.

[juliepoudrier]

Pearse,
You make good points, but as Eileen said, many of those points have already been made in this thread. And if you think the discussion is stupid and pointless, then why on earth are you contributing to it?

J.

[Sue R]

Yes, sometimes it gets tiring, but I firmly believe that every time we have this discussion or one like it (and there's been a lot of really great things coming out of this thread) that people are reached and attitudes and actions are changed.

Absolutely. It may just be one person affected and won't change the way things are going in the world, but it still is meaningful for that one person and their dog(s), present and future. This board and discussions such as these have shaped the thinking of many board members in a good way.

It is frustrating to see that it has to be reiterated over and over, but each time, the message reaches people new to the concept, or people who haven't gotten to grasp the ideas in previous discussions.

[MrSnappy]

I think you're all worried over nothing re: sport collie breeders. Everyone knows the Kelpie is the new Sport Collie. Look out Kelpies!!

About 6 months ago there were something like 6 litters on the ground locally, from the "big hats." 6 litters, and a couple more in the works. "Locally" is not very big here and most of the "big hats" in our 'locally' have sheep for dogs, not dogs for sheep. I guarantee those pups aren't all going to working homes ... a heck of a lot of them are going to sport homes. And a lot of those sport homes, well intentioned though they may be, talk about breeding their SoandSo by SoandSo who ATCHed in record time, and will breed back to SoandSo because then they will keep the "working lines" in there. Recently one agility handler asked me if I would work her dog on sheep for her because she "doesn't have the time." Too busy with agility. But by golly, if that dog can get somewhere on the trial field, at all, she'll feel better about breeding her.

I have no idea why she asked me. Anyone who has seen me handle a sheepdog should conceivably run far far away, but I digress.

And these breeders just switch gears to keep breeding when one market gets too saturated. Like the infamous merle-flyball collies, are now morphing into the infamous merle flyball borderjacks.

To go back to Julie's point about neuter contracts etc., I have said it before (and gotten flack for it) and will say it again - the working dog culture perpetuates a "spit and a handshake" romantic ideal of breeding and selling dogs. That ideal, unfortunately, does not really work when a significant percentage of your working dog culture is actually 2 miles outside the city limits on 1.5 acres and selling in a corporately inclined environment to multi-purpose homes. Just because a breeder has an idea of morality, doesn't mean his buyers do. And it doesn't change the fact that a kajillion dogs are dying in shelters either, so maybe someone needs to blow up the romantic ideal. Any narrow focus has the potential to exclude extenuating factors that can and should play a part in any decision making process that affects the breed.

So I agree with Kristi; it's a pervasive problem, and more of a problem then Mr. McCaig gives due, IMO.

Just my two cents, which is worth more now cuz the Canadian dollar is nice and strong.

RDM

[BustopherJones]

Pinned Thread: Welcome to the BC Boards -- READ THIS FIRST

Good advice.

[Pearse]

Most of what you go on to say here is entirely consistent with what everyone else has said in this discussion (not really an argument, I would say). What you are overlooking is that the categories of "conformation breeders," "sport breeders," "herding breeders" and working breeders, and their buyers, are not fixed. They are fluid and changing. There will always be some people in each category, but their numbers can be affected by many different types of pressures. I think it's in the interest of the working border collie breed to try to influence people away from the first three categories, and thereby push against the marginalization of the working border collie. You may feel differently, but calling our efforts stupid will not change my mind.

Also, I've never been able to see why one must choose between engaging in this type of discussion and "supporting the true working breeders and, more importantly, real working dogs." Surely one can do both. In fact, I would say that doing the first is one form of doing the second.

I wasn't calling the discussion of how to move influence people towards concern for working border collies and educating them as to why breeding for work is the only way the dogs should be bred, stupid. That's the productive discussion.

I was calling the argument "stupid" that starts out "look at this video showing all the ugly Barbie Collies with their fat fluffy butts and their dead soulless eyes" and progresses to "you're bad for calling Barbie Collies ugly. That's mean to the dogs" and "did not"/"did so". It comes up two or three times a year, and deflects from the productive discussion as well as alienating most of the sports/conformation people who may be listening in. The point being, you are never going to dissuade people from producing those dogs as long as there is a market for them. So, let them be and concentrate on steering people towards an appreciation for working bred dogs, thereby reducing the market.

How to do that? Well, I'm spending next week putting on a trial as close to a major metropolitan areas as I could reasonably get it, which is a major pain in the butt (truck in sheep, put up a 1/2 mile of fence etc) but that's a market of 2 million people. We'll get 1000 or so spectators if it doesn't pour all weekend. Most have never seen dogs working stock before (based on an informal poll taken last year). They will be amazed and will ask good questions (again based on last year). There will be literature available extolling the virtues of working dogs, and decrying the evils of breeding for anything but the work. At least one major network will shoot a live broadcast of a demo the morning before the trial starts where the same points will be made. The problem with most good trials is that they are where the sheep and the land are so no one sees them. Agility, other dog sports, and conformation get national media coverage. Stockdog trials do not. So the public's perception is skewed towards what they see.

That's one way of doing it. This board is another when it stays away from personal bickering.

Getting a ban on dogs sold in pet stores would be another, as it would help put puppy mills out of business.

[Eileen Stein]

I was calling the argument "stupid" that starts out "look at this video showing all the ugly Barbie Collies with their fat fluffy butts and their dead soulless eyes" and progresses to "you're bad for calling Barbie Collies ugly. That's mean to the dogs" and "did not"/"did so". It comes up two or three times a year, and deflects from the productive discussion as well as alienating most of the sports/conformation people who may be listening in.

It usually comes up once a year, and I don't remember a single such thread whose trajectory didn't produce productive stuff along with the minor bickering. Stuff that newer people on the Boards may never have encountered before. As for whether it alienates most of the sports/conformation people, or starts them thinking about something they've never thought about before, or both -- that is pure speculation. (I see no signs at all that it alienates the sports people, who by and large share the fluffy/ugly point of view.) Every subject on which a wide variety of people have differing opinions -- politics and religion, for example, as well as the fate of the border collie -- is inevitably going to be debated on a number of different levels, some of which you will find more congenial than others.

The point being, you are never going to dissuade people from producing those dogs as long as there is a market for them.

You are never going to dissuade ALL people from producing those dogs as long as there is a market for them. But to say you are never going to dissuade any people from producing them as long as there is a market is demonstrably false. There are many people on these Boards who could make money producing such dogs, but who don't, because they have been convinced it is wrong.

That's one way of doing it [steering people toward an appreciation of working bred dogs].

And a very good one. I hope the Gettysburg trial and the media materials connected with it will have a similar impact.

This board is another when it stays away from personal bickering.

Well, there's this thing about discussion boards -- one person's personal bickering is another person's substantive argument/discussion. Maria wouldn't say the same thing every year if she didn't think that by saying it one more time, in perhaps a slightly better way, she would convince those she's trying to reach. I wouldn't say the same thing over and over if I didn't think that by saying it one more time, in perhaps a slightly better way, I might convince those I'm trying to reach. She, I, and everyone else saying something you don't find convincing or productive may make you impatient, but calling their/our posts stupid, arrogant, juvenile, etc., does not raise the level of discussion and is not likely to make any one of us post things more to your liking rather than the things we want to say.

Getting a ban on dogs sold in pet stores would be another, as it would help put puppy mills out of business.

Getting a ban on dogs sold in pet stores would be another very good thing, but probably not one with much impact on this particular issue. I've never seen a border collie for sale in a pet store, and while I'm sure there must be some, I don't believe they're a particularly significant part of the equation.

[ShoresDog]

Unfortunately, out here in California there are "puppy stores" who sell border collie puppies. Gaahhh! Barkworks is one of them. Pet store sale should be outlawed, for the sake of all the dogs, though I do agree that it isn't the largest part of the problem for border collies.

Where is the trial that Pearse is staging? I am so impressed, and I do appreciate how much work it will be. It's great that it will be a source of all the good information about border collies. I'm sure it's not, but if the "major metropolitan area" were San Diego, you'd sure have me as a volunteer.

[AKB]

Ugh- apparantly I should be calling Pasqual a "Pappy Peke" according to those people. Disgusting. We are getting a Petland (the daughter of the Hunte corporation's chain). I'm sure their dog concoctions will be equally vile.

Edit- apparantly they are also called Peke- a Paps. Awful- and I saw that there is now a designer papillon/dashcund mix. Guaranteed back problems! Good idea, stupids. Sorry, that was off-topic.

[Brandon M]

Im sure this has been said before, but there are so many posts and I dont have enough time to read them all lol!

I think "the point" for them is: they enjoy it, bragging rights, and it helps the make MONEY. A pup from a line that wins Westminster will go for a lot of cash.

I get a lot of comments that my dog looks like a show dog. It's true that he does, but he isn't. He isn't registered with any BC registry at all. He's just a Border Collie and his breeding is mostly working dogs. But his mom is a show BC. I think I've posted a picture of his mom before she doesn't look like todays conformation BCs, neither does Lance. His slope more upwards from the whithers, he has a more defined.. waist? (I dont know what you would call the tuck up of the belly). And his tail is very.. flamboyant.

On sheep, which we started him on about 2 months ago, he shows moderate potential in a trialing sense. Which is what I want to do eventually with Lance or another BC. He has a natural outrun and pretty good balance. The problem with Lance is he grips sheep which would be a disqualification in a trial.

I dont support conformation breeding. But also I know that even one of those dogs at Westminster could have great potential as a working dog, though I doubt any of them are. But you cant judge a book by it's cover.

[Brandon M]

So his mother is a "show" dog and that makes your dog a dog out of "mostly working dogs," eh? Wowzers.

his sire is a stud dog from the UK. All I know is that the sire's working lines go back farther than show dogs in the bitches line. The bitch has working lines in her too and runs trials. but she also has a show CH. There are quite a few good working dogs who have earned their CH in the show ring on the side, cause it's not that hard to do.

ETA: when I say show dog I mean she has been in shows. I dont know if she was specifically bred for it or not.

[Sue R]

Huh? That makes even less sense, I think. I'm not figuring out what you are trying to say.