153 replies to this topic

[blackacre]

NO, NO, NO, HE DOESN'T BEAT HER! I withdraw without reservation my earlier remark, and I reject and deprecate any suggestion that he beats his wife, and I sincerely apologize for any implication that might have been given, or any inference that might have been taken, that he now beats, or ever has beaten, his wife.

Soooo, the guy beats his wife? Who would think??!!?

Ha ha kidding!

Actually, I think the guy's pretty cool--even if he is a wife beater.

A <giggle>

[ShoresDog]

Well, Eileen, I just want you to know that I'm old enough to have known exactly what you meant!

[borderlicious]

First off let me say that I have not seeing one of his episodes. So with that said I cannot comment on him too extensively. However from what I saw it seems he has a basic love for the animals in question. Has he killed any dogs? Has he maimed any dogs? Someone show me some cruelty on his part to justify the overall abhorrance for this individual.

Cruelty is a matter of opinion, personally I don't find him cruel. I do consider him a bit of a brute, but that's my own personal bias as I do train dogs using gentler methods. It would take a hell of an offense for me to grab the dog and shove him to the ground; so far none of the dogs I own or train have done something so drastic.

My "abhorrance" for the man is brought on by the fact that he claims to be an educated psychologist, but in reality he is only trying to mimic what dogs do to one another based on a very minimal understanding of pack theory. My problem is not so much with Cesar himself, but with the fact that people loosely imitate his poor imitation of dog behavior. I don't think humans can accurately replicate dog behavior, and it gets even worse when they try to imitate a person trying to imitate a dog.

When someone is in the public eye like that, they need to think about the way people will react to their show. Despite the warnings on the show to not attempt the techniques yourself, people *do* attempt the techniques themselves. And delivering an improper leash correction, carelessly alpha-rolling and poking an agitated dog is much more dangerous than imitating someone's clicker training. My concern here is not for the owners who might be bitten for trying this on their temperamental dog. It's for the good-natured dogs that put up with all this crap say after day, and finally snap and get euthanized. People think watching TDW is an alternative to actually seeing a behaviorist for their dog's issues. Sometimes these methods are all they try, and if they fail then the dog is surely a lost cause and needs to be PTS.

Since this topic is in reference to sensitive dogs, I will say that by making a dog confront its fears by way of flooding, and correcting it when it tries to get away, all you're doing is confirming the dog's fears. If someone has a dog that is afraid of a hairbrush and they pin the dog down and force it to be brushed, the dog may give up and hold still, allowing itself to be brushed. When the dog is let up, do you think he views the hairbrush any differently? Now not only will the dog be *brushed* when the hairbrush comes out, but he'll be pinned down too. If a dog is afraid of thunder, would you take the dog out in the middle of a thunderstorm and give it a leash correction each time he reacted to the thunder? What is that teaching the dog? That thunder is painful. It certainly isn't alleviating any fear. Coddling a dog for being afraid will exacerbate the fear, but so will punishing it for being afraid.

Flooding has its place, but when using flooding techniques the handler should not apply any other negative stimulus. It just won't work, and the dog WILL eventually switch tactics and shut down to avoid the correction in addition to the fear. This isn't success, it just makes the experience so bad and overwhelming that the dog gives up. Granted, some dogs might not care and it might solve their problem, but is this the kind of technique you want to see everyone try? Why not start with gradual desensitization instead of heaping stress onto an already anxious animal?

/rant. *g*

[Joe Anne]

Ok I realize I am chiming in on this very lengthy post, and I also admit after reading all of page 1 and several posts on every other page, I must say... that I totally concur with Eileens first page post >totally<...and I would like to add my own thoughts.
There are sooo many training methods, there are soooo many "dog personalities", NO ONE method is right for all dogs. My father used to say:
You can please all of the people some of the time, Some of the people all of the time, BUT, you can NEVER please all of the people ALL of the time! That being said... the same would hold true with training methods! Right? Well I have been training dogs for over 20 years, some through dog training clubs with my dogs, some methods I've learned through reading, some through training classes/seminars/workshops/videos etc. and finally professional certification as a Pet Trainer. As of now, I own and manage my own Dog Training and Behavior Consulting business. Over the last couple of years, I have used exclusively Positive Feedback/Reward Based Training. However and a really big HOWEVER!... along came Phoenix. My very precious Border Collie boy (not my first BC). As far as obedience training..he excelled, no suprise there. He went to work with me, met all sorts of strangers (and some actually and literally strange LOL!), kids, other dogs, cats etc.) He was maturing into a very nice social doggy. Then one very cold winter day, ice covered my windshield, and I decided to let the heater melt the ice off. So Phoenix and I were sitting there side by side, when after I started my vehicle, I accidently hit the wiper blades. B A M!!! there went Phoenix, after expressing his anal glands! Peeeee-UUUU! over the seats to as far back into my Nissan XTerra, that he could get, and NOTHING, was gonna get him back up front.
Well that was the end of him getting in the car by himself, he would run out the doggy door and hide behind a bush in the back yard, if he even thought I might want to take him somewhere. To make a loooonger story short, on advice of a Behaviorist, I use my positive training to get him over his fear. 3 months later... finally he jumped into the car. Ok, sounds good up til now. During that 3 months of not going anywhere in the car (also behaviorist advice), he now developed a serious aggression toward people, other dogs and kids!!!! Now what! I was sooo upset, we cured one problem only to create another even worse. I tried again for many, many months to work with this aggression, all the positive stuff I knew. Not working... period, and it was getting to a point that it was only a matter of time before he bit someone. I decided to weigh all the good advice I got on these boards, and eventually decided on starting herding training with him. I was told that the discipline methods used with seriously whacky dogs may be against my current training methods, so I had best be prepared. Well anyone here who was at that first Herding Clinic I went to with Phoenix last June knows exactly what I mean! The first 5 minutes we were there he showed his attitude, got whacked on the butt twice with a stock stick and told in no uncertain terms, you will not do that...! We have been doing our herding training for a year now, and let me tell you up until this past March's clinic, Phoenix got in trouble every time, but it was less and less everytime we went. The aggression and whacky attitude toward people was the first to go, and now he can actually pass a dog nose to nose, and nothing!
Soooooo, my point is all the positive training in the world was not going to stop Phoenix...BEFORE... he bit someone. I never would have used physical discipline on him, but that is what it took for him. He is really maturing into a very nice dog now. We still have very minor incidents now and then, but I have people coming up to me now who saw him last June, and they are amazed at his changed attitude.
I now train with a mixture of methods, and personalize my training depending on the dog and the people involved (the people being the biggest problems by far!).
Excercise, discipline, then affection (Ceasar) Rules, Boundaries and Limitations (Ceasar) what's not positive about that?!
I think it's unfair for anyone to say he has been deliberately cruel or killed dogs? Please he is only 1 trainer, and I know he has made a positive difference in many dogs and peoples lives. No one is perfect, no one. No one method is perfect!
Like has been already said here, if you don't like it don't do it... seems simple enough to me. I happen to be one that likes Ceaser. I don't agree with everything he says or does, but I do agree and use many of his methods...depends on the circumstances and the people involved.

[Eileen Stein]

Jan, thanks, I'm glad somebody did.

I think he's pretty cool too, Andrea (you devil!). I haven't seen that many of his shows, and they *are* a little hokey, but there's good stuff there to be seen if someone's open to it.

There are a couple of strands in this thread which bother me a little. The first is the implication ("terribly misinformed," "I don't think he has the BASIC CONCEPT of classical condition, operant condition") that the only reason one might choose a different mode of training than positive-based operant conditioning is ignorance. It's entirely possible to reject training based largely or exclusively on a positive reinforcement model for reasons other than being misinformed or not understanding the theory. Vicki Hearne's Adam's Task: Calling Animals by Name -- like her or not -- should leave no one in doubt about that.

The second is the assumption the all-positive folks seem to share ("a corrections-based default of no behavior," "his so-called remedies involve very frequent leash corrections or "bites" from his hands, and teach the dog to shut down and not offer any behavior at all") that positive-reinforcement training produces dogs who offer behaviors and correction-based training produces dogs who "shut down" and won't try anything. Sheepdog training refutes this utterly. I can't think of any good sheepdog trainers who use all-positive methods; they all use corrections. Yet there is no canine endeavor where it's more important that the dog show initiative, confidence and a willingness to "try, try again," and the dogs these trainers produce DO show these qualities (along with the utmost in trust toward their trainer). I forget which of our members uses the Yogi Berra tagline "In theory there's no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is," but it seems appropriate here.

[borderlicious]

Actually, Eileen, I'm afraid you mis-interpreted what I was trying to say (my fault, I've never been good at expressing myself in writing). I do not think everyone who chooses a different type of training does so out of ignorance. I certainly think corrections have their place. And to be a bit easier on the guy, I think Cesar has seen a lot of dogs and is fairly good at reading them. However, I do think he's misinformed when it comes to dealing with fear-based behavior, and he seems unable to recognize the difference between a dog that stops interacting with the environment due to fear, and one that has overcome his fear and is confidently interacting with the environment. I'm not saying that everything he does makes dogs shut down, I was referring mainly to the use of his methods on sensitive dogs in intimidating situations.

Comparing stockdog training to pet dog training is comparing apples and oranges. For stockdogs, their environment (with moving livestock) is tremendously reinforcing in itself. I can't think of anything stockdogs like more than working, so technically, every second the dog is allowed to work without being fussed at, is reinforcement. Stockdog training is pretty positive if you look at it that way. But I digress. For pet dogs being asked to face something frightening, their environment is not reinforcing and I do strongly believe that reinforcement (whether in the form of praise, food, a toy or relief from the aversive stimulus) is often necessary in order to change the dog's mind about something it doesn't like. Delivering corrections to a dog that is already being exposed to an aversive environment is only going to worsen the fear, in my opinion. This will eventually lead to shutting down, which is usually a last-ditch effort to make something scary go away.

On the flip side, I have a dog that will startle and display aggression to normal, everyday things. Sometimes it does take me moving him over to the object and telling him to shut up in order to snap him out of it and realize that he's snarling at a purse. Then he feels stupid. So no, it doesn't apply to every single dog. I was generalizing.

I'm not an all-positive trainer . . . I really don't know where people get that. I do think that there are "positive" alternatives to dealing with things like fear and aggression, though, and in my limited experience they have worked just as well as physical corrections & are far less stressful to the dog. And call me a pacifist, but I think pet training should be as kind and enjoyable for the dog as it can be.

[ShoresDog]

For stockdogs, their environment (with moving livestock) is tremendously reinforcing in itself. I can't think of anything stockdogs like more than working, so technically, every second the dog is allowed to work without being fussed at, is reinforcement. Stockdog training is pretty positive if you look at it that way.

Seems to me that's a very good way to express it, and you expressed very well the advantages of positive reinforcement to help a dog overcome inappropriate fear-based behavior. I think your writing skills are quite good!

[smileyzookie]

I agree, she's younger than me and writes like she's older lol.

[Eileen Stein]

Borderlicious, I take "misinformed" to mean that someone is ignorant of certain information which right-thinking people have and which -- if he were informed of it -- would change his opinion. I don't think that's the case with CM, but I could well have misinterpreted you.

Interacting with livestock is certainly reinforcing to a dog, but (1) I think there are folks here who would be just as disapproving of hitting a dog (which these trainers do, judiciously) in the course of training on stock as they are of Cesar's methods (which don't include hitting AFAIK) and would say categorically that a dog will lose trust in you and shut down if you ever hit him, and (2) these trainers are training off stock too -- training the same kind of good behavior and dealing with fears as pet trainers have to do -- and they're doing that also mainly with correction and with no reward but mild praise.

I too think that dog training should be as kind and enjoyable to the dog as possible, but speed of result is a plus factor. Especially if the training involves getting a dog over his fears, you have done him a favor if you can bring about that result quickly rather than slowly. Which, I would certainly agree, you cannot always do, but which it appears CM often does.

[Katelynn & Gang]

The second is the assumption the all-positive folks seem to share ("a corrections-based default of no behavior," "his so-called remedies involve very frequent leash corrections or "bites" from his hands, and teach the dog to shut down and not offer any behavior at all") that positive-reinforcement training produces dogs who offer behaviors and correction-based training produces dogs who "shut down" and won't try anything. Sheepdog training refutes this utterly. I can't think of any good sheepdog trainers who use all-positive methods; they all use corrections. Yet there is no canine endeavor where it's more important that the dog show initiative, confidence and a willingness to "try, try again," and the dogs these trainers produce DO show these qualities (along with the utmost in trust toward their trainer). I forget which of our members uses the Yogi Berra tagline "In theory there's no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is," but it seems appropriate here.

I too think that dog training should be as kind and enjoyable to the dog as possible, but speed of result is a plus factor. Especially if the training involves getting a dog over his fears, you have done him a favor if you can bring about that result quickly rather than slowly. Which, I would certainly agree, you cannot always do, but which it appears CM often does.

I think Eileen said all there is to be said on this subject with the above but I will add my two cents (haha).

CM is pretty neat and I believe he has a better understanding of dogs then most people, even some of those on this board. Some people will just never be good enough dog trainers/handlers to use his methods and not screw a dog up.

Doesn't it say on his show as a disclaimer that his methods are not to be used at home without a pro. trainer at hand anyway?

Katelynn

OBTW I do not believe anyones dog on this board would be "dead" if CM had trained the dog using his methods. Maybe if they themselves tried to trian their dogs using his methods without fully understanding them though, maybe.

[smileyzookie]

OBTW I do not believe anyones dog on this board would be "dead" if CM had trained the dog using his methods. Maybe if they themselves tried to trian their dogs using his methods without fully understanding them though, maybe.

Agreed.

[MaggieDog]

CM is pretty neat and I believe he has a better understanding of dogs then most people, even some of those on this board. Some people will just never be good enough dog trainers/handlers to use his methods and not screw a dog up.

Umm I take exception to this statement - I'm sure I could use Cesar's methods just fine, but I don't because I believe that they do more harm than good and I have better methods for acheiving my goals.

OBTW I do not believe anyones dog on this board would be "dead" if CM had trained the dog using his methods. Maybe if they themselves tried to trian their dogs using his methods without fully understanding them though, maybe.

I don't think the methods themselves would've killed Maggie, but her reaction to them likely would've resulted to a very reactive dog and a possible bite - and depending on the person bitten, a euthanasia order; End result = death.

I tried corrections based training and it made my dog worse, even when applied by a trainer with 20 years of experience. I choose not to use those types of methods for that reason, not because I'm some wimpy, permissive trainer. I've been there, done that and don't want to repeat it.

BTW, I'm not all +R - I use negative punishment a fair amount and just yesterday reacted and positively punished my dog - which I deeply regret btw as it did nothing but release my frustration and freak my dog out more.

[smileyzookie]

BTW, I'm not all +R - I use negative punishment a fair amount and just yesterday reacted and positively punished my dog - which I deeply regret btw as it did nothing but release my frustration and freak my dog out more.

I hate when I do that. I feel so bad, I just wanna kick myself in the butt.

[Root Beer]

OBTW I do not believe anyones dog on this board would be "dead" if CM had trained the dog using his methods. Maybe if they themselves tried to trian their dogs using his methods without fully understanding them though, maybe.

Edited:

I don't think that you really have any idea whatsoever what the affect of Milan's methods would have been on my dog, even if Milan himself had applied them.

This reply was not meant to express anger, nor taking the matter personally. As one of the folks who stated that my dog might be dead if Milan's methods were used on him, my response to the above is: no - even if Milan's methods had been applied by Milan himself, this particular dog would have most likely have become fear aggressive and ended up being put down.

[Nik]

Here's my take on this discussion:

I have a sensitive dog who is very fear aggressive when it comes to strangers. He has bitten...luckily it was someone who understood the situation. Before this time, I recognized the actions of Pache and was working w/ him using positive reinforcements, but really getting nowhere fast. Then the incident happened and I KNEW I had to do something different before it happened again or got so out of control that I would have no choice but to PTS. And THAT was NOT an option in my opinion. I had been watching CM for quite some time and enjoyed his shows, but due to the sensitivity that BC's so often seem to have, and quite frankly taking alot of advice from those of you who have sensitive dogs and use strictly all positive,I opted not to try his methods at that time. (BTW, I am in no way, shape or form blaming any of you for what my dog would or would not do while using this technique...at the time that is how I felt that I should train my dogs.)

After the biting incident, I started using some of the methods like the Psst, and the hand biting to get Pache's attention and make him understand that I'm in charge, and the stature exercises that CM gives people to use to boost their self confidence. Once Pache got that message, he has been a totally different dog. Yes he is still fearful of strangers, but now the situation is under control and I'm progressing more w/ desensitizing him to his fears.

Now with all of that being said, I realize that I was not Leader in Pache's eyes at the time that he bit. He picked up on my being wimpy w/ his discipline and used it. I did not trust my dog's actions while using all positive reinforcement methods, therefore why should he trust me to be protector and leader. Maybe it is CM's methods that work or maybe its just that he gives these people a sense of self reassurance that they can train their dogs w/ whatever problem they are having. Pache is really more self assured (not 100% though) and he RESPECTS me more now than he ever did using all positive. As a matter of fact, he respects me even more than he does my DH, and he's supposed to be DH's dog. He is not afraid of me. I am no longer afraid of his actions, although I do respect what he is capable of doing w/ his teeth.

An example of how well he is doing...I used to have to put him out back or in my room when someone would come to the door, and not allow him contact. A few weeks back, the dogs were inside and Navi was in the back room w/ me while Pache was lying on the sofa. A friend of my dad's (who is btw afraid of dogs) came inside w/ my dad and I didn't even know it until I came into the kitchen and seem him sitting at the island bar. I looked at Pache, then looked at the friend, etc. and asked "Pache let you in w/o even so much as a bark?" After I walked into the room, Pache even took the notion to walk up to the friend for a head scratch. Now I don't know about you, but to me that is a definite improvement. In turn its these kind of milestones that boost my confidence more and more so that I can become the kind of leader that I need to be for my dog.

ETA: I think one of the things I like most about CM is that he sets rules and limitations, but at the same time allows dogs to exhibit dog behavior. Nowdays alot of us humans tend to try to take the animal out of the animal.

[concrete]

There is a pamphlet on the Border Collie Club site that is called "Living with a Border Collie". It points out that Border Collies will act submissive and sensitive in order to manipulate their owners. I have raised and trained a number of Border Collies for stock work in the last 10 years and have had only one that was truly soft to the point he could barely stand a correction. I have trained a number of dogs that were raised as pets and acting submissive to keep control is a common behavior to them all. I am amazed at the number of sensitive, soft dogs owned by people on this board and propose that most of them are simply manipulating their owners.

Kevin Brannon

[bcnewe2]

I just got home from a nice dog weekend. I've read most of what been written here this morning. It's long and very personal.
My 2cents is…. to each their own. I use lots of different methods. I've even given in to my own ego and call them "my way" of training. What works for one is what that person should be doing. Not bashing others for trying different ways.

I can't add anything more to this discussion than already has been added. It's a nice one to read because there are so many different opinions. I will be using some ideas and not others but now I have more to think about!

And I love the statement that Cesar beats his wife......I thought of the old game of post office. Where one person says something to someone then that person tells someone else. By the time it gets back to the original person, you have, he beats his wife, kills dogs, saves dogs, cheats on his wife, beats his kids....it's endless!
Humor is a great thing! So glad Eileen set us straight on him beating his wife, kids and the dogs!

BTW... I like Cesar and Elileen's humor!

Kristen

[Kyrasmom]

Nowdays alot of us humans tend to try to take the animal out of the animal.

I whole heartedly agree and will add that not only do we try to take the animal out of the animal, we don't take responsibility for the problems we create and just assume it's a problem dog and move on. When I was little, if the dog growled at me because I was disturbing its sleep, my parents reprimanded ME, now the dog would be rehomed. In these days, people want to invest zero and get a huge return which is why I appreciate someone like CM, who is becoming a household name, constantly repeating the same things, consistency, exercise, and it's a dog! If you put in the work, you will get a result.

I don't think his methods will work on all dogs but I think a lot of dogs would not be re-homed if people just consistently exercised their dogs and became benevolent leaders instead of assuming that dogs think like people and thus should be treated as such. I'm not sure what has made CM such a national success when he's not really imparting anythiing beyond simplistic notions and his own obvious leadership qualities. Maybe it's because it seems like a quick fix and that notion in itself can be dangerous and misguided for some people and their dogs....but then for many, a little exercise and the problems disappear.

If I had to get completely off the fence with regard to CM, I'd probably fall more in his favor than against, simply because I do think he reads people well and works with what he is given. I have an inkling that he does much better with the dogs he takes to his camp because it seems he takes the pressure off versus applying it so strongly in the at home sessions.

But who knows, I know that I would not roll my fearful dog nor would I "touch bite" him if he's growling but nor would I use a treat as a distraction. It's all about balance, which is why so many people here can have strong emotions because they're better equipped to know their dog than most people who are clueless.

Maria

Editing to add, for a giggle, that I'm glad the "he beats his wife" was cleared up because when I read it, I googled to see if there was somethiing I had missed in mainstream news....

[Root Beer]

There is a pamphlet on the Border Collie Club site that is called "Living with a Border Collie". It points out that Border Collies will act submissive and sensitive in order to manipulate their owners. I have raised and trained a number of Border Collies for stock work in the last 10 years and have had only one that was truly soft to the point he could barely stand a correction. I have trained a number of dogs that were raised as pets and acting submissive to keep control is a common behavior to them all. I am amazed at the number of sensitive, soft dogs owned by people on this board and propose that most of them are simply manipulating their owners.

Kevin Brannon

Here I thought that when my fearful Border Collie was cringing in the corner shaking violently, it was because he is experiencing fear due to an involuntary chemical reaction in the brain that takes place when a threat (real or not) is perceived. And here it was all a magnificent plot to manipulate his owner! Isn't it interesting that he has learned to push his tail between his legs and blow his anal sacs to manipulate me? And he has learned how to shut down completely and not even take a very high value treat just to manipulate me! Maybe he is actually the one that beats Cesar's wife - he has just cleverly made it look like it was Cesar!

Honestly, if he is such a mastermind that he can fake such a clear fearful response, I am very happy to train him any way he wants to be trained. Positive training works for him. He's happy. I'm having fun training him. If that's his master plan, I'm willing to go with it.

Edited to add: The tone of this reply is not meant to be angry or accusatory. I was being sarcastic, which I understand is a poor device to use on a message board.

What I was trying to say here, in plain talk is: I disagree with Mr. Brannon's position. My disagreement is based on my own experiences with my fearful dog, and on research that I have done into the causes of fear in dogs, which has been most enlightening and insightful. Based on that information, I would like to respectfully challenge the position that most soft dogs are trying to manipulate their owners, in a friendly manner!

[pammyd]

Some v interesting posts
My 2p worth
I think it takes all types of ways to train
Slightly off topic - I am a driving instructor and training people to drive you have to use positive and negative
"that was really good, fantastic look how good you did that even when it was scary" "SLOW DOWN RIGHT NOW, LOOK AT THE ROAD!!"
Its the same with most dogs
Sometimes they need a bit of fuss (sometimes) sometimes they need you to laugh at them and sometimes the voice of god
But always they need to trust that you are doing things for their own good - you are the boss and you will protect them and they dont have to worry about looking after you - you are the boss

I havent seen much of this guys stuff - but I think the major problem is that he just does it on tv with problem dogs
People follow with a dog who isnt much of a problem - its just the owner dosent know how to train properly, then you get a poor nervous dog too scared to react incase something else bad happens
Nothing wrong with jumping at a loud noise - I do it myself, then you realise nothing bad has happend to you, put on a goofy grin and get on with your day
I would be a nutcase if I was punished for jumping