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Wow... I just had a family dinner. My mom went to see training practice saturday and sunday, and she thinks we ask too much of the dogs - they looked really bored for much of the second half of class (she has 3 very well behaved dogs in the things that matter to her). My youngest girl has this never ending debate about if the dogs get anything out of it. My ex, invited because he's the father of the two now adult girls, and whom loves dogs dearly, says dogs are dogs and shouldn't be subjected to the indignity of having to do what the owner wants when the owner wants.

 

Then _I try to explain that I got a bc because I like training dogs and they thrive on doing things with with us, and not doing things with them would be really bad for them.... but it doesn't register! I try to explain I didn't just get ANY dog because i knew it was important that the dog LIKED learning... but it doesn't register...

 

It's not important for me personally, but it IS kind of tiring - not important, but still - does most people not get that some dogs actually apreciate you spending the time to actually TEACH THEM STUFF?

 

Just added to explain that yes, at training classes the dogs where a bit bored. but we're having class exams in 3 weeks. so the trainer was being especially exigent.

 

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My husband actually thinks, or well thought, that making a dog 'earn love' (his thoughts on it) by debasing itself by performing was somehow mean.

 

I still do all the training but honestly, he's come around given that 4 of the 5 gravitate toward me hard. Because I DO THINGS with them and work their brains. He also now gets a kick out of bragging.

 

He, however, still prefers the one of the bunch who does not care about training but just wants to be close to people, have cuddles. He wouldn't actually care if the dog ever knew so much as 'sit' as long as it was housebroken, non-destructive, people and animal friendly and wasn't a bolter/door dasher.


Seriously, that's the full extent of his criteria for enjoying a dog, and his expectations of them.

 

I don't get it, but whatever. As long as they're not stopping me doing my thing they can think what they want.

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I used to take my GSD to agility. He is a terrible agility dog and he does not really enjoy agility but he did enjoy spending time with my daughters and always looked forward to getting out of the house. I think there is a lot to be said about just doing something with your dog. I think everyone (my girls and Rem) benefited from getting out and participating in agility even if Rem was not so skilled.

 

It may be because I have been a parent for so many years but I think being bored while you wait your turn is a good thing. My daughter is in an agility class with a dog that belongs to a friend and I always bring Nattie. She gets to greet the people and their dogs but most of the time she just has to wait patiently while her girl runs another dog.

 

My problem now is that my husband has completely bought into the "Border Collies are smart and have a ton of energy" mindset. He keeps asking me when I am going to get Nattie involved in herding.....and have I considered flyball? I plan to remind him that if he enjoys clean socks and a dinner that involves more than a peanut butter sandwich that we may need to limit the number of activities our baby Border Collie participates in!

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My 'real' agility dog does not give two hoots about agility, for agility.

 

My instructor once said there are dogs who run for love of the game, and dogs who run for love of their owner. My dog is the later. She doesn't dislike it, she's pretty good at it, but there is never any question that what she finds rewarding is any activity she is doing with me, and learning itself.


We're doing a treibball workshop in a few weeks.


She weighs 12lbs and is 11 inches tall. Should be interesting.


Molly's going to check out a flyball tournament for socialization and will start agility in January but I'll be honest. I'm kinda like Kylie. My motivation is doing things with the dogs. I'm not competitive at all and have very little interest in any sport for the sake of the sport. Stupid pet tricks and dog training, I like, and I'd love freestyle a lot but since that's not available here I just... dabble around.


And hike a lot.

 

I can't imagine NOT training, though. So much of how I bond with dogs comes from that in one way or another. The time, the communication, the satisfaction and fun... That IS dog ownership for me.

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Most of my non-SaR basic training gets done via everyday interaction with impromptu "sessions" in a wide variety of settings.

 

I cannot imagine attending a class but I suspect that is a personality issue and I think classes are grand ideas for people looking for structured training.

 

That all said, my dogs always end up with the general "well trained" reputation because I interact with them so much that they pick things up more like a child would than a dog.

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Oh. Yeah. I don't need the classes - the classes are about ME socializing, to be honest - but I just... can't imagine living with a dog and not doing ANYTHING with it. Fetch, playing games, training them to do dorky things, going on hikes, whatever. I am not... passive in my dog ownership, I guess. That's probably a personality thing, too. Like I said, my husband's not into the whole thing and he's got a decent relationship with -well, the dog that suits him best. Which is a terrier ;-).

 

And I have got to stop spamming these threads.

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Some Border Collies don't like training. They can take offense to the continuous repetition. Asking them to do things again is like telling them they did it wrong the first time so must repeat. Some dogs, of course, just love doing the same thing over and over. Some dogs like doing meaningful things. Chores. absolutely. puzzle out how to get the sheep out of the corner and over the bridge or through the creek. fantastic. one more flanking drill because you can't remember which way is which? ugh.

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^^

 

Yep.

 

They learn best when the learning is done in an integrated fashion, generally speaking, in my experience.

 

One supposes that this is a genetically imposed trait given the breed origin. Sheep dogs learn by being part of the environment. We do virtually no repetitive training with our working dogs.

 

Really, the only "training" they get is during puppy hood and that is only basic manners. They know left and right by the time they leave the nursery because every morning they got a whistle command telling them which way breakfast was that day. And so on.

 

You can't train a dog to herd so everything that comes after is about building a common language to manage what the dog was born knowing.

 

Any decent stockman will tell you he learned more from the dog than the dog did from him.

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Some Border Collies don't like training. They can take offense to the continuous repetition. Asking them to do things again is like telling them they did it wrong the first time so must repeat. Some dogs, of course, just love doing the same thing over and over. Some dogs like doing meaningful things. Chores. absolutely. puzzle out how to get the sheep out of the corner and over the bridge or through the creek. fantastic. one more flanking drill because you can't remember which way is which? ugh.

 

All training to me means is teaching the dog. That doesn't imply (to me) that I'm drilling the dog repetitively, or really at all. I think even my little chi mix would be put out if that was my idea of interacting with them and having fun. I guess maybe in some ways the first thing I teach the dogs is that learning is a fun/enjoyable thing to do with me.

 

The last thing I taught my chi mix was how to close doors. The last thing I taught Molly (the BC) was to pull towels out of the dryer and drop them in the laundry basket. I mean, sure, I teach them to down and stay and come when I call and to walk nicely on a leash, but that's all out of the way by the time they're 10, 12 weeks old. All the other training is stuff we both find fun. Otherwise, outside basic manners, there's just no point. But it's still training, because it's still TEACHING (for my definitions). Even those dumb classes I take are still playing with the dog and the dog learning things along the way. Sometimes I have a goal, yeah, and it builds on itself, but it's not... making the dog sit there and stare at me while I spoon feed it and make it perform something by rote.

 

Fortunately 4/5 dogs here enjoy the game playing with me and learning things, and the 5th hangs out and cuddles and kills things when he feels like it.

 

Nah. I always like seeing your name on a post. Guaranteed to be intelligent, often entertaining and usually useful and/or educational.

 

I vote for continued spamming, please.

 

Oh. Well, then. OK!

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@ red russel: indeed :)

 

@ CptJack:

 

I was just sitting here, done work for the day finally, wondering how to frame a thread that would spark a discussion like this.

 

Certain things I teach service dogs (I have trained a variety of service dogs so it's all murky as to the *what*, but it's irrelevent) must be done more repetitively than other things simply because you do have to hard condition the behaviour. I dislike behaviour that is so unnaturally conditioned, I prefer organic conditioning methods like you describe but some things [1] simply must be done that way because you require a somewhat unnatural response from the animal.

 

So, that aside, I find that Border Collies especially (Tollers are very similar and have a lot of Collie in them) learn best when it can be organic. Molly learned a down-stay on morning walks through the band of forest to do our round of chores.

 

Deal is, she gets to run about and be a puppy, chasing things and peeing everywhere she can squeeze anything out, grab sticks and drink from leaves, try and catch birds (flying, a hundred feet above) and buzz me as many times as she thinks she can before I tell her to buzz the hell off.

 

Every now and again I yell out, "down!" and if she drops fast and stays until I give her a "that'll do", she can come and get a treat (part of her breakfast, we eat on the go in the mornings - she gets her kibble by hand and I get my toast with a bit of dog slobber - meh).

 

The faster she drops the more fuss I make and the more kibble she gets. If she drops like a lead balloon I will often take the kibble to her. If she fails she can ... well ... buzz off.

 

Now she drops on a bloody dime, lays still like a little worm in the grass, peering at me through the blades and waits for the "that'll do" - as long as it takes. It's hilarious. And for her it's a total blast to do. Like a game now. Can she make me come to her?

 

There is no negative for her. She still gets to run, chase, lick, carry, pee and leap even if she doesn't drop.

 

At first she didn't unless she was hungry and then one day she was hungry and she did it the whole way and it got really exciting for her by the end.

 

Then she was trying to anticipate my command by watching me closely - even when she was playing.

 

This spawned several other organically learned behaviours, notably that she stops and waits for me on walks - when she loses direct line of sight she waits, makes eye contact and carries on.

 

She pays a little attention to me all the time. After all, I might yell "down!" at any time. And I do now - all over the place. Sometimes for fun and sometimes for control. Such as the other day at a friend's house when she was being a dorky obsessive freak over a toy. She stopped paying attention to the toy, dropped and waited for the "that'll do".

 

Knowing how she likes to do things (I never request the check in on walks or ask for the eye contact, she just does it) I just went far enough away so she couldn't see me and gave the release. I knew she would come and make eye contact before going off on some new obsessive, dorky, freaky quest.

 

We have established, again organically, that the food reward is only in the morning and only in the forest so she doesn't expect a treat and is happy with the usual "Good job, Boo!".

 

She settled on trying to figure a way to get all ten tennis balls under her control and into a more secure, defensible location which occupied her for the better part of half an hour until the visit was ended.

 

THAT could have been a youtube video, I tell you.

 

She is becoming deeply conditioned to those important behaviours without any repetitive training at all.

 

It takes longer, but it proofs itself as it grows because it grows organically and if you are smart, you will not test it until it will pass.

 

Solves so many problems to have a dog that wants to be able to make eye contact with you on a regular basis. She will wait for a very long time, ten minutes or so, in a down-stay before getting fidgety (I have never tested it's limits - I don't test to destruction, generally) so I don't worry that I won't be able to expand that window significantly once SaR training begins.

 

(Speakina spam ...)

 

But anyway ... like that.

 

I love training stories like that - reading others', I mean. I am very inclined to the method as a philosophy.

 

Yours are always awesome :) Thanks for telling them.

 

[1] anything that requires an animal to act against instinct, for instance - you do often have to hard condition a sheepdog that takes to inappropriately biting, maiming or killing sheep and you have to hard condition a tracking/trailing dog to stay quiet on a scent because sometimes that is critical in a genuine life and death way.

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Yes! All around.


I absolutely do demand the dogs do things that are important for safety - and sometimes that's more formal than others, because they're not service dogs, they're just pets. Waiting to be released at the front door is non-option, always. So, that's a little repetitive sometimes and at first the door gets shut in their faces a lot. Walking at a decent loose leash is important because if I have all 5 on leash I'd like to keep my arms in their sockets and my teeth in my mouth. Recall's self-evident. Sit, stay, down - all give me control over the dog that, let's be honest, sooner or later I may need.


Other things, MOST things, are organic moments. Some things aren't formally taught at all. "Come on" for Molly is kind of backwards in that it means she's allowed to go ahead of me/keep going. We go outside, she'll get off the porch and hit the path and then stop and wait for me to say 'Come on, then' then run up to the field and go play. It's been generalized at this point, but the gist is the same. "Bye" means I'm leaving and she better get her butt with me right now or she's being left. There's no official training in those, no sessions anyway, just consistently using the same words to mean the same things and she's figured out what they mean. "All done" means I'm finished with whatever, so don't bother nagging - again, just repetition and context.

 

And I love that.


A lot falls somewhere between with me, admittedly, but it's still fun and play for both of us. It's just that the organic part of that is that because I like training the dogs learn that learning stuff from me, even if it's a little more formal, is PLAY. Just like tug or fetch - and it's almost always encased in a more traditional play setting. So the energy and fun stay for the dog, but they've learned something that might not be natural. Like, I don't know, weaving through my legs, or spinning clockwise and counter clockwise, or whatever.

 

I kinda think, in some ways, you definitely condition dogs in how they view training itself with some of that early stuff. You teach them how to learn, at least, and influence how they view it. If it is heavy, serious, uptight, formal then the dog's NOT going to love it. If it's luring the dog in a circle with the ball in your hand in the middle of fetch and saying 'spin' then launching the ball then you've just taught your dog a stupid pet trick and made it part of a silly game and gotten it on a verbal command.

 

Or in the case of the dryer and towels, if the dog already knows 'take it' and 'out' as natural parts of tug, it's really easy to make helping with the laundry fun. Or Kylie and doors if your dog likes pouncing her paws on the wall and you transfer that to a door, you've just taught them to close the door.

 

I guess what I'm saying here is ultimately I see training as a way of playing with my dogs and have probably convinced them of the same by now. I do agility, I do classes and the occasional workshop, but what I don't do is NOT PLAY unless it's a Very Important Skill (for safety, usually) and I can't get it taught without more serious methods of some variety. There is a reason I don't do obedience classes, basically, and that the classes I do take are fundamentally 'silly games to play with your dog'.

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My ex, invited because he's the father of the two now adult girls, and whom loves dogs dearly, says dogs are dogs and shouldn't be subjected to the indignity of having to do what the owner wants when the owner wants.

 

Then _I try to explain that I got a bc because I like training dogs and they thrive on doing things with with us, and not doing things with them would be really bad for them.... but it doesn't register! I try to explain I didn't just get ANY dog because i knew it was important that the dog LIKED learning... but it doesn't register...

 

It's not important for me personally, but it IS kind of tiring - not important, but still - does most people not get that some dogs actually apreciate you spending the time to actually TEACH THEM STUFF?

Thanks for this one, always good to start the day laughing.

(Most) dogs live for and thrive on "doing what their owner wants, when their owner wants", mine certainly do.

They are dogs and border collies to boot.

 

He sounds like a -gasp- cat person....

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That (ugh!) about sums up my personal attitude--forget the dogs'! For those who disagree, I think we all know people who are inclined to take a drill instructor approach to training. I've had handlers tell me that they prefer a dog who can take drilling because that's how they like to train. Personally I find it boring and I figure my dogs do too. If I'm going to run in a trial, I might spend a little time drilling/tuning up, but if I don't have actual work for them to do then we're just as happy to be lazy ol' slugs.

 

I personally don't think dogs necessarily want to be taught stuff all the time, but they most certainly want interaction with their owners. (Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that teaching stuff isn't always a requirement from the dog's perspective.)

 

J.

Some Border Collies don't like training. They can take offense to the continuous repetition. Asking them to do things again is like telling them they did it wrong the first time so must repeat. Some dogs, of course, just love doing the same thing over and over. Some dogs like doing meaningful things. Chores. absolutely. puzzle out how to get the sheep out of the corner and over the bridge or through the creek. fantastic. one more flanking drill because you can't remember which way is which? ugh.

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I view basic training to be very important for the obvious reason a mannerly dog goes everywhere and that gives him a happier fuller life. And some commands can be life saving so if sometimes there's need for a drill in order to make sure important stuff is completely understood, so be it, although of course keeping things fun is, well, fun, and we both love having fun.

But it's after basic stuff is well understood that, for me, things get interesting. We have grown to know and trust each other, we have established a good comunication sistem and understand with ease what the other is saying, we have a partnership going on that makes learning complex stuff something that flows. Like dancing the tango.

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I got a bit spoiled by the first dog that I trained, who, in spite of some pretty serious fear issues, took to training like a duck to water. From the first time I stepped into a ring with him (myself not knowing a thing about what we would be doing there), he loved connecting with me, learning to do stuff, and he adored the repetition. The more I asked him to do something the happier he was. He had a very strong natural desire to work with me - it didn't matter what we were doing as long as he could keep his head about him - and I really thought all Border Collies would be like him. That passion to work with me as a team player in that way is one of the things I miss most about him, and in that way I really didn't know what I had until he was gone.

 

He thrived on training over the years. He used to act like he wanted to go outside, and as soon as I opened the door and the other dogs went out, he would run back into the house, hoping for a training session! And in the week before he died, he and I were still training - pivots. We were trying to see if he could still pivot, using a platform. I even have a video of the session - he was having a blast.

 

None of my other dogs have had that kind of passion for training, although they all enjoy it in their own way. And Dean and Tessa both struggle if there is too much repetition - I have to work hard to mix things up for them so they don't get the impression that they are being asked to repeat because there is a problem. Both of them require a decent measure of external motivators if I want to work on really complex concepts with them. Toys for Dean, and tons of chicken for Tessa.

 

That said, they both love to go to class, and would beat down the front door to be able to go on the nights one or the other has to stay home. They know down time is part of that, but they still want to be there.

 

Don't know who Bandit is going to be quite yet. So far so good with his training, but he is a teenager right now, so he has a lot of developing to do. He loves class, but down time in that context doesn't make sense to him yet.

 

I had one dog that I really didn't train, although I did some classes with him for fun along the way. He was happy, and he behaved well enough until he got really old, and then I did make a lot of allowance for him because he was really old.

 

I can't imagine having a dog and not training, but . . . who knows . . . maybe someday that will be my life circumstance. For now I enjoy going to classes, and all the dogs that I have now do, too. So, we go.

 

I did have to learn, though, that their attitude toward training will not be what Speedy's was. That was a tough lesson at times.

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I like to take classes because the dog is exposed to other dogs, people, sights, sounds and places while learning new skills and I appreciate the distraction, if nothing else. If I am lucky, I’ll have a good instructor who helps me learn some new skills myself or work through a training challenge, despite the fact I’ve been training dogs since I was 11 (so a long time). I also often enjoy the socialization with other people who love dogs and like doing activities with them. Way back when I used more old school techniques to train obedience (e.g., heel taught through collar “pops” with some praise), I had a couple dogs who didn’t enjoy obedience class and one who clearly thought most of the exercises were pretty stupid. A couple others considered class the highlight of their week. Now that I train in a way that it is all fun, food, play and games to them, they clamor to train with me.

 

I dropped out of dog sports several years ago and currently have two mature, settled dogs. I have them perform certain “tasks” (Quinn is great about picking up things and bringing them to me or taking them to a container or place) and tricks periodically. From time to time I train some new behavior or do a refresher when I see a behavior falling off from my expectation for performance. The recall is really important to me and if I see any deterioration in performance, I will work to get it back to what I want to see (immediately running to me, even in the face of distractions).

 

I agree that most dogs don’t need to keep learning things but they sure love interacting with their persons and training is one way to do that, with the bonus of teaching them useful behaviors. If people are hassling you about training your dog, they may have some unease about their way of interacting or not interacting with their own dogs. The vast majority of dogs are housebroken and maybe (maybe) learn one or two commands in their whole loves. The concept of training a dog to perform behaviors and have manners in a variety of situations is almost beyond some people’s understanding. Some people can't take their dog out in public and need to put him away when visitors enter the house. Other dogs seem to have decent basic manners by nature. And if they and their dog are happy with that arrangement, good for them. But that doesn’t mean their way is the right way for you. Smile at their comments, change the subject and do what works for you and your dog.

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My husband is another that doesn't care if the dogs know anything as long as they will walk on a leash, not even a loose leash. The dogs know it too. We can be walking together and the dog I'm walking will be on a loose leash, while the dog he's walking will tow him down the road. At some point we'll switch dogs and again, my dog will walk on a loose leash and his will tow him down the road. He's fine with that. I want to kil him and the dog too, it drives me nuts!!! I just don't go for walks with him often.

 

I've done just about every different type of training class that is offered around here just to try something different. I enjoy learning new things and trying new things with my dog. Some things we have liked, some classes I didn't go back to the 4th class. Nexy, I want to start kayaking with Gideon. And maybe bikejoring with Micah, I'm not sure on that one yet.

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To me, training is bonding. I know not every dog and not every dog owner feels similarly, but for me it has been an absolute game changer. The bond that I've developed with my Aussie is pretty phenomenal, and it's drastically improved my relationship with my husband's chihuahua. My herder is a workaholic with huge food drive and moderate toy drive, and my chihuahua would likely run off a cliff for a piece of kibble, so it's made things easier.

 

For those interested, I recently posted up a video of some of my recent training with my Aussie in the Gallery subforum.

 

I don't think that dogs have to be actively trained to be happy. I occasionally run into the mindset that dogs are happier when left to their own devices and it's demeaning to make them perform circus tricks. However, most of the time I experience a lot of positive reinforcement for the work I do from my dog and other people alike. Not everyone is like me, but I'm absolutely the type of person who values the bond that a long history of direct interaction with my dog. I'm not a big snuggler, and I don't settle well, so I draw my value of dogs from elsewhere.

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There's stuff my dogs pick up themselves and stuff I train them to do. I often find myself thinking "I don't remember teaching you that."

 

I don't go to training classes with my 4 mo pup because classes aren't for training dogs, they're for training handlers to train dog and I don't need help with what we're doing.

 

He meets and greets a huge variety of dogs politely, gets to play if he wants and is learning the life skills he will need. And he's doing it without having to put up with the potential pressure, noise and distractions of badly behaved dogs in a class. That's an awful lot to ask at his age.

 

But we do some more structured training too, just not very much. I have thought about the basic building blocks of skills that he will need when we eventually up the training and we're working on those. His multi purpose down at a distance is coming on nicely.

 

There's no rush. As long as he isn't learning bad things that will need to be corrected I expect him to pick up things very quickly when he's older.

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I don't go to training classes with my 4 mo pup because classes aren't for training dogs, they're for training handlers to train dog and I don't need help with what we're doing.

 

I took my last puppy to a few classes, not because I needed the instruction but because it was a challenging environment for him to practice his manners skills. I was actually feeling a little smug when i signed him up because I knew he knew most of the skills taught in the class, and I was a little surprised how naughty and distracted he was when it was a really fun and dynamic environment.

 

YMMV, of course.

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I took my last puppy to a few classes, not because I needed the instruction but because it was a challenging environment for him to practice his manners skills. I was actually feeling a little smug when i signed him up because I knew he knew most of the skills taught in the class, and I was a little surprised how naughty and distracted he was when it was a really fun and dynamic environment.

 

YMMV, of course.

 

Yeah. This is why I take all my dogs to a foundations agility class - it's my substitute for puppy manners. Obedience classes bore the crap out of me, so the foundations class is a little more advanced and interesting for ME and fun for the dog, but they still get practice in a nutty distracting environment.

 

Molly knows all the stuff there but I'm expecting her to be a JERK in class because - running dogs.

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