Bar J Ranch in Arizona a reputable breeder?

[Jumpin Boots]

 

Good move. I tell people Quinn was the absolute right dog for me from the absolute wrong breeder.

I think that's a super great way to word that scenario.

[Eileen Stein]

Yikes! Something I've not seen....MAH and Swaff in one pedigree....scary.

 

There are plenty of pedigrees including both, believe me.

 

I couldn't open the pedigree site, but it appears you've got strong cattledogs on the sire's side, SoHo. Good luck with your pup!

[Tess's Girl]

http://www.americanbordercollie.org/disciplineactions.html

 

Thank you.

[SoHo]

MAH? Do you care to tell what that stands for? I'm aware of Swaff. Still learning about lines and history. Thanks.

 

 

Which dogs in my pup's pedigree are you referring to by MAH and Swaff? And do you think the 'bad' side of the pedigree will 'overrule' the good side or just make it more of a crapshoot whether my pup has the instinct/drive/ability/talent of a good working sheep or cattle dog? I can see it lessening the chances or possibly even 'watering' down some of the instincts/heritable traits of the proven dogs in her ancestry, but eliminating them completely because of one parent with less-than-stellar/untested genetics seems hard to believe.

 

I'm trying to set up an instinct test where I can introduce her to livestock soon to see how she reacts. If she 'turns on' and has the drive and aptitude to work stock and wants to do it, I'll start training her and see where it goes (assuming I enjoy it too). If she doesn't show any interest in it or has little talent and drive for it, I'll stick to frisbee, hiking, running and maybe agility she takes a shine to that and be happy. Herding just seems more challenging and fun to me, so I hope she not only has the instinct/drive/ability for it, but enjoys the heck out of it as well.

 

I'll know more either this weekend or next weekend. I'll try to put some clips on here, though I'm having trouble getting them small enough to attach here.

[Gideon's girl]

If you mean video, you can post on Youtube and give us a link.

[SoHo]

Here's my efforts to skip trace my pup using my friend google.

 

Here are here ancestors:

On her father's side (the good side)

Her grandma Kate http://www.cowbiters.com/our-dogs.html

Her grandpa Bill http://www.carmichaelbordercollies.com/ranch-hands.html

Parents of Grandma (aka Kate):

Luke Jr. http://www.carmichaelbordercollies.com/ranch-hands.html

Hooker national champion '04 http://www.usbcha.com/cattle/archive/champions/open_champs.html

Parents of Grandpa (aka Bill)

Red - bred by Juan D. Reyes, 2010 national champion http://www.mrangusranch.com/dogs.asp

Tip - bred by Juan D. Reyes

Her great great grandma is named Kate out of LockyeBC. http://www.lockeyebc.com/1ladies.html

Now for her mother's side of the pedigree. And where trouble starts.

Grandfather - Spur Bar Doc http://www.spurbar.com/studs_and_dams.htm

Grandmother - 2T Eye Shadow http://www.spurbar.com/studs_and_dams.htm

Grandfather's (Spur Bar Doc) parents - Chip and Bandit from same breeder http://www.spurbar.com/studs_and_dams.htm

Grandma's (2t Eye Shadow) parents -- Chase (also from Spurbar) & Top Hand Magie from a notable breeder of badass cowdogs named Eddie Sharp.

http://www.ozarkkelpiecowdogs.com/node/3

From a grade of A to F, what do you give this pedigree as far as working line genetics go? I'm guessing a C+ overall, with the father's side getting an A and the mother's side getting a D- or F. As far as who she looks like, she's the spitting image of Bill, her grandpa on her father's side. I just hope she inherited more from him than his good looks. I plan on emailing Spurbar and asking about their dog's working lines, specifically my pups ancestors, for some videos or pictures of them working and the general reasoning behind the pairings they chose.

[Debbie Meier]

boy it's tough to just look at the pedigrees without looking at the individuals that were mated and also their parents. I've seen both Hooker and Bill work, seen offspring of Hooker, we own a son, seen many 1/2 siblings of Bill and also their offspring. Would need to see the sire working and trained to a pretty high level before deciding if he was representing the good traits that the dogs had behind him or if he had some of the quirks and then see the bitch do the same to see if she complimented him or not.

 

At this point getting your dog and you to someone who is accomplished and respected as a trainer would be the best way to help you see what your dog is all about and help you develop the dog into being the best it can be. A instinct testing really won't tell you much, especially if your dog has a big motor right from the word go and has some of the traits that the sire side has, quite possible that she would be more dog then expected if things lined up right.

[Debbie Meier]

another thing to think of, your mentioning that the dam's side is the "bad side", the owner of that dam is who controlled the mating and the selection. Often times the dam and her side of the pedigree is a bigger factor as to how the pups turn out simply because the breeder (bitch owner) tips the scale toward the female and her traits.

[Debbie Meier]

just looking at more of the spur bar webpages, the ranch photo page kinda tells a the tale. How many photos do you see of them using dogs on the ranch? I would expect to see the entire page to be plastered with photos of their dogs engaged in ranch work. http://www.spurbar.com/ranch_photos.htm

[SoHo]

Yeah, I cringed when I saw the Spurbar site. I thought the whole point of ABCA registry was to preserve the working attributes of the Border Collie, yet Spurbar dogs show no proof of having working dogs and have no trouble getting registered. How are they any different than an AKC breeder? I wish their was another registry that had more stringent rules for entry. What really blows my mind is that a high selling dog at Redbluff a few years ago (Spur Bar Hoss I think is the name) came out of there. I'm taking my pup out to a ranch to expose her to sheep next Saturday. I'm curious how she'll react. Hopefully she loves it and has a knack for it.

[SoHo]

I just happened on this add by chance. It's so sad. http://www.ranchworldads.com/classified.php?listing=37347

 

That's my pup's dam. The only thing he has in the description is that she made $6000 from one litter. What he doesn't mention is that not one of her pups were Red Merle's like her. In fact, my pup is the only one in the litter that had any red, and she just has some on her cheek and front leg. I also finally put together how he works. He will have litters out of top notch blood lines that he'll try to sell after they've been started for top dollar to ranchers, farmers, trialers, whomever will pay. He also throws together dogs at random based on things like color (That's the only reason he bred Red Hot Flair),but he sells these off as pups to locals. He doesn't bother training them, just sells them to anyone that can pay.

 

The interesting thing is that when I visited him, I was more interested in the 5 month old dogs I saw on his youtube channel, not the puppies he had. He wanted $1250 for those except one called Ned who he offered to sell at $750, the same price as the 7 week old pups he had for sale.If he had let me take the one named Colt I would have done it. That dog was impressive -- most confident, friendly, prettiest, and most intense when he went into work mode. Ned, on the other hand, was skittish and soft. I took him into the yard to try and get him to play with me, but he wasn't really interested in fetching a tennis ball and was just to skiddish for me. So I turned down the offer. What I didn't know at the time is that Ned and his siblings were actually out of top cattledog blood lines (Reserve Champion Ace and Geordon's Shep). Had I known then what I know now, I would have given Ned a fairer shake or made an offer on Colt.

 

But I decided to look at the pups based on the few minutes I spent with the dam Red Hot Flair. She had a great temperament, was smart, and caught on how to play fetch after the second throw even though she's never done it before. Poor Ned seemed stupid in comparison to her.

 

So I went over and looked at the puppies. I remember the breeder being a bit surprised when I chose a pup over Ned, which I understand completely now. I passed up a dog from cattle dog trial winning bloodlines for a pup with barbie collie bloodlines. I remember asking if he was going to keep any of the pups to train like he did with Ned and his eight brothers, and he said no. I understand why now.

 

I think Bar J occasionally sells high quality dogs as a way to boost their reputation so they can sell their backyard bred barbie collies to unsuspecting chumps at inflated prices. It's pretty clever if you think about it.

[juliepoudrier]

Wow, poor Ned indeed. My first border collie was a rescue who "wouldn't play." At least not until I got her home and made her feel at home. Then she became an amazingly playful dog and an awesome frisbee dog. I never would have considered her stupid for not being interested in toys. She was scared and shut down. She also became my first sheepdog trial dog. It's entirely likely that once he had settled in to a real home and felt real caring from a human Ned would have learned fetch and anything else you wanted. Yep, poor Ned.

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

Lockeye is know to produce dogs with seizures. In case anything crops up.

Is lockeye on both sides of the pedigree or just the mom's side?

[mum24dog]

Wow, poor Ned indeed. My first border collie was a rescue who "wouldn't play." At least not until I got her home and made her feel at home. Then she became an amazingly playful dog and an awesome frisbee dog. I never would have considered her stupid for not being interested in toys. She was scared and shut down. She also became my first sheepdog trial dog. It's entirely likely that once he had settled in to a real home and felt real caring from a human Ned would have learned fetch and anything else you wanted. Yep, poor Ned.

 

J.

 

A friend fostered and then adopted a failed sheepdog - terrified of everyone and everything, I mean really petrified. A few months and a lot of patience down the line she has started working him on sheep (a first for her) and he is doing very well. So not failed at all.

[SoHo]

Ok, Jul

 

Wow, poor Ned indeed. My first border collie was a rescue who "wouldn't play." At least not until I got her home and made her feel at home. Then she became an amazingly playful dog and an awesome frisbee dog. I never would have considered her stupid for not being interested in toys. She was scared and shut down. She also became my first sheepdog trial dog. It's entirely likely that once he had settled in to a real home and felt real caring from a human Ned would have learned fetch and anything else you wanted. Yep, poor Ned.

 

J.

Okay, so what should I have based my criteria on? Select the dog I'm least bonded to? I'm pretty sure Ned would have turned out fine, but so would half the dogs I saw the at the shelters and pound that I met. I'm sure Ned will be fine with his pedigree, so don't cry for him... And I get the impression that you think Ned might have been mistreated or poorly cared for. That's not the case. I don't like the breeder because of his shady business practices, but the animals were well cared for.

[SoHo]

Lockeye is know to produce dogs with seizures. In case anything crops up.

Is lockeye on both sides of the pedigree or just the mom's side?

 

All of the bad stuff is on the mom's side.

[mum24dog]

Ok, Jul

 

 

Okay, so what should I have based my criteria on? Select the dog I'm least bonded to? I'm pretty sure Ned would have turned out fine, but so would half the dogs I saw the at the shelters and pound that I met. I'm sure Ned will be fine with his pedigree, so don't cry for him... And I get the impression that you think Ned might have been mistreated or poorly cared for. That's not the case. I don't like the breeder because of his shady business practices, but the animals were well cared for.

 

I've no idea about this breeder but a dog can have its physical needs met but not its mental resulting in a dog that does not show itself as its best.

 

I'm not saying that you should have taken Ned if he didn't attract you, whatever his breeding on paper; well bred guarantees nothing. Just look below the surface.

[SoHo]

I've no idea about this breeder but a dog can have its physical needs met but not its mental resulting in a dog that does not show itself as its best.

 

I'm not saying that you should have taken Ned if he didn't attract you, whatever his breeding on paper; well bred guarantees nothing. Just look below the surface.

 

I don't want to defend this breeder, but I met all the siblings, and all of them except Ned were extremely confident and outgoing. Ned was the shy, timid one of the bunch. There's videos on him on the guy's website if you want to see the dogs..

 

I didn't have anything against Ned. I'm sure he's a sweet dog, but I only get one chance to pick the dog I'll have for the next 12+ years, so choosing one that doesn't have any of the qualities that are important to me in the hopes that he'll develop them is extremely risky. Why pass up a dog that does have the qualities you want for one that doesn't?

[juliepoudrier]

SoHo,

My objection was really to you labeling Ned as stupid because he didn't instantly pick up on fetch. I think that's unfortunate. Of course you should choose the dog who appeals to you the most; I just cringe when I see/hear value judgments on puppies (or dogs) based on one quick interaction.

 

J.

[CptJack]

I... am going to interject here just far enough to say that most 7 week old puppies do not fetch. My girl is a ball and fetch NUT, now, but at 7 weeks old? No way. I don't think she grabbed onto the idea of fetch until she was somewhere around 12 weeks. She'd play and tug a little bit before that, she was relatively confident and outgoing - once she got used to the stranger in her space, and then got used to her new home - but FETCH? That's asking a lot from a very, very young baby. Especially one who has just met you.

 

Puppies aren't dogs. They don't come doing and knowing things. They're still learning about the world and people in it. Of course they're by comparison stupid - they haven't had time to learn much of anything yet. They also haven't had time to mentally or physically mature, or to even HAVE all the instincts involved in playing honest to goodness fetch instead of chasing a ball a little bit, or to have a ton of attention span.

 

Yeah, even border collies.

 

Border Collies, by the way, do tend to be soft dogs, and they aren't labs who love everyone instantly, either. So... they take some consideration in assessing, whether puppy OR adult.

 

I'm not saying you were wrong to get the puppy you liked more - you're not - but you really can't know much about the ultimate dog from the puppy being unwilling to play a game like fetch. Extreme fear, etc, sure - but things like ball drive? Nah. No time to learn what the game is, why it's fun, or the ball to have any value.

[toney]

It was worded slightly ambiguously but I believe Ned was older than 7 weeks. I think she mentioned he was five months or so.

[mum24dog]

It was worded slightly ambiguously but I believe Ned was older than 7 weeks. I think she mentioned he was five months or so.

 

I keep thinking of a bitch called Fleece bred by Geri Byrne in the US but now in the UK. Her current owner recognised her potential but describes her as rather nervous when he got her. Nevertheless, he bought her and she proved an excellent worker and trial dog that has produced talented pups.

 

Fleece is now pretty much retired but it just goes to show that what Julie says is true; you need to look below the surface.

[Maxi]

I keep thinking of a bitch called Fleece bred by Geri Byrne in the US but now in the UK. Her current owner recognised her potential but describes her as rather nervous when he got her. Nevertheless, he bought her and she proved an excellent worker and trial dog that has produced talented pups.

 

Fleece is now pretty much retired but it just goes to show that what Julie says is true; you need to look below the surface.

 

As well as just giving time to mature, .. it's often the partnership that counts. a dog that appears 'nervous' or 'stubborn' with one handler may excel when paired with someeone else.

 

ETA.. and if you are talking about the Fleece I'm thinking of, then the UK owner you mention is Derek Scrimgeour... a highly respected and excellent handler who would no doubt bring out the best in most dogs.

[mum24dog]

Yes, Derek. That's where my pup came from, although not related to Fleece.

 

Haven't said more than hello to him as he was passing through the farmyard but have had long and interesting conversations with his daughter Rachel who looks after the breeding side.

[Liz P]

My best working dog screamed, ran away and hid when I first met her. It's a funny quirk that runs in the lines. They get really worried as pups when people lean over them, but they outgrow it and turn into outgoing, happy, confident dogs. I prefer to judge a pup by it's parents to see what it might grow into (within reason of course). There are certainly pups out there who are just born overly nervous and will never get over it.