Unfortunately, I live in Central Florida where opportunities are few

[Gideon's girl]

I really need some opinions of the more experienced board members. If you can help me with any one of these, I would really appreciate it.

 

1. I need more lessons. I live halfway down the east coast of FL. The only trainer even remotely close is Maurice MacGregor, and he is too busy. The only other possibility I know of so far is Cheryl and Rich Williams, but they are 4+ hours away and only here for the winter. I'll travel there if that's the best/only option, but I'm hoping for something a little closer, but still great.

 

2. I would consider sending my dog off for training, if I knew someone good. I would prefer being able to drive him there and drop off/pick up, so I prefer someone in the southeast.

 

3. I'm at a point where I can increase the stock on my 10 acre hobby farm. I have 4 goats and could probably increase to 12. I can get them somewhat locally and not too expensively. Or I could get 4-6 sheep. I've looked mostly at Katahdin, but I would have to travel a lot farther, pay a lot more, and they aren't known for doing as good down here as goats, heat and parasite issues. Should I just stick with the goats, or are there advantages to getting sheep for training, even though it would be such a small number?

 

4. While the Williams are down they are having a trial, the Suwannee River SDT, I believe, and I plan on going. YAY!! Does anyone know of any other trials down in Florida that I should be looking out for?

 

And finally, 5. The trial judge is Michael Gallagher(I hope I spelled his name right). They are having a clinic afterwards, but I don't know anything about Mr. Gallagher. Should I go or should I save my money to go to a different one? $125 per day.

 

Thanks in advance for any opinions/contacts/information!!

[Sue R]

First last, and last first - Michael Gallagher is a world-class handler/trainer. It would be worth going to audit if you are not ready to participate. If I had the chance and the dog, I would go.

 

Go to the trial. Meet people. Make connections. Talk to Cheryl and see if she would recommend anyone in your area.

 

Goats can be good training stock, in my admittedly limited experience, when young but are very clever and can be good at defeating a dog, especially a young dog, which can be a setback in the dog's progress and confidence-building. See if you can find someone who has bred for heat tolerance and parasite resistance in hair sheep, and consider getting stock there. Or, if you choose goats, avoid letting them get sour and getting the best of the dog, or arrange to replace them with young stock as needed.

 

Ask Cheryl about someone who might take your dog in for training, or perhaps someone else here can make a recommendation. You may have to travel but there are good handlers in Georgia and other nearby states who might be able to point you in the right direction.

 

Again, ask Cheryl, ask around at the trial, and here's hoping someone else here can make some recommendations for someone in your area. You are better off traveling less frequently but further for the right training than to settle for less-optimal training that might be more frequent. Trust me, I know.

 

Very best wishes!

[GentleLake]

Cheryl & Dick announced on the Yahoo Sheepdog list that the Suwannee River wouldn't be held this year. They may do a nursery trial though.

[Gideon's girl]

Thanks Sue, I was thinking that it's a good thing I like to drive.

 

Hi GentleLake, this is still up on their website http://www.jaggerwilliamsbordercollies.com/SuwaneeRiverSDT.htm but I'll call and make sure. But even a Nursery trial would be more than I've ever been to before.

 

If you know of any others in FL, please let me know. I'm going to start looking in GA too.

[juliepoudrier]

This probably won't be much help, but both Alex Golden and Angie McCrann are somewhere in Florida. Angie used to give lessons, but I don't know if she still does. I don't think Alex teaches, but I haven't been trialing in a few years so don't really know if he's even still working dogs. But they are names you can give to people at trials to see if anyone knows them or knows how to locate them.

 

As for sheep, how about some native sheep? Gulf Coast Natives, to be exact. They are wool sheep, but they are a breed that was developed in the gulf coast region and are well suited for the climate. They are also a rare breed, so you'd be doing your part to help preserve them. Barbara Lockard is also somewhere in Florida (sorry to be so vague). If you are on Facebook, look her up. She has tunis,which I have found to be very "southern climate" hardy and recently mentioned she needed to sell some sheep. As they are already surviving well in Florida, they'd be worth considering. Again, tunis are wool sheep, so that may be more than you want to take on.

 

Personally I'd add sheep rather than goats, largely for the reasons Sue mentions.

 

J.

[Gideon's girl]

Thanks for the names! I really don't want to go the wool sheep route, but I am finding some possible contacts for Katahdins that are Florida bred and parasite resistant. So now I'm wondering if Katahdins are an OK breed for us.

[juliepoudrier]

Katahdins would be fine. They and dorpers are the main breeds of hair sheep that folks raise. Katahdins are generally on the lighter side (compared to dorpers), but that shouldn't be an issue for training.

 

J.

[GentleLake]

Hi GentleLake, this is still up on their website http://www.jaggerwilliamsbordercollies.com/SuwaneeRiverSDT.htm but I'll call and make sure. But even a Nursery trial would be more than I've ever been to before.

 

That's for February 2014. The one that was just cancelled (on 11/20, only about a week ago) was the 2015 trial.

 

They said there might be a novice or a fun trial. I hope there's one or the other so you can attend.

[Gideon's girl]

Ah yes, the year does matter, doesn't it. Drat!! Well, I'll give them a call and see what I can see. I hope, I hope, I hope...

 

Thanks Julie, looks like it will be Katahdins. Next, it will be arranging deposits, then new pens...

[Smalahundur]

Thanks for the names! I really don't want to go the wool sheep route, but I am finding some possible contacts for Katahdins that are Florida bred and parasite resistant. So now I'm wondering if Katahdins are an OK breed for us.

Why not, if there is a native breed as Julia pointed out, I think the advantages of having sheep (versus goats) outweigh the disadvantage of having to deal with shearing (I suppose that is your point).

I assume you can´t get a professional shearer in your neck of the woods, so you would have to do it yourself. I know a couple of senior sheepkeepers here (both with back issues...) that shear there own flock by haltering the sheep, and shear them standing. Very doable, especially when you have just a few.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Penny Tose's St Croix sheep do well in Louisiana and the one time I ran in Florida at the C-54? I believe it was on St Croix. Two Florida trials in February http://www.usbcha.com/sheep/upcoming_trials.html

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Gideon's girl]

Why not, if there is a native breed as Julia pointed out, I think the advantages of having sheep (versus goats) outweigh the disadvantage of having to deal with shearing (I suppose that is your point).

I assume you can´t get a professional shearer in your neck of the woods, so you would have to do it yourself. I know a couple of senior sheepkeepers here (both with back issues...) that shear there own flock by haltering the sheep, and shear them standing. Very doable, especially when you have just a few.

I can drive 10 hours each way to get the sheep, spend a LOT more money on sheep, then spend more on clippers to have another chore I hate(I can shear them myself alright, but that doesn't mean I want to), and I've heard that they are like our native cows, very independant and don't flock all that well, and may be more likely to challenge and overface my soft dog. Or I can drive 2 1/2 hours each way, buy more sheep for less money, and they are sheep that have been bred in Florida for generation to be parasite resistant. I believe I will go with sheep, but it probably will be the Katahdins. I haven't looked at St Croix yet.

[Gideon's girl]

Dear aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Penny Tose's St Croix sheep do well in Louisiana and the one time I ran in Florida at the C-54? I believe it was on St Croix. Two Florida trials in February http://www.usbcha.com/sheep/upcoming_trials.html

 

 

Donald McCaig

Thanks Mr. Donald

 

I'm saving that link to my favorites.

[juliepoudrier]

St. Croix are also nice sheep. I have a friend who used to breed them. Very like katahdins, actually. One thing I would caution with hair sheep--and this seems to be a bigger problem with dorpers and dorper crosses--is make sure you breed for (and buy) sheep who actually shed. There are plenty out there who never shed completely and will be covered with varying amounts of hair/wool. If it's a small amount it can be ignored, but some of them retain quite a lot of hair/wool and those really do, IMO, need to have the excess removed for their health and comfort (especially in southern climes). And I'm here to tell you that shearing a hair sheep is A LOT more work than shearing a wool sheep because of the texture of the hair/wool and the lower amount of lanolin means the mats of hairy/wooly stuff that form are generally rather difficult to cut off (and will dull your blades in an instant).

 

So when you buy sheep make sure you're buying ones that aren't being culled for not shedding. And when you breed, you will probably want to get rid of any who don't shed. I always say that if you get hair sheep because you don't want to shear (and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to shear--as an aside, Smalahundr, I shear mine standing up on a stand), then it makes sense to make sure that your flock's genetics are conducive to the sheep actually shedding, or you've lost all advantage to having hair sheep.

 

J.

[rufftie]

http://www.asherdellfarm.com

I've taken a few lessons here. I enjoyed it but my knowledge is limited. It is much closer to you. She is an older woman so I don't know if she still gives lessons. Stuart Ballentyne used to give lessons on her farm too. Might as well check it out.

[Gideon's girl]

As far as shearing goes, I have a miniature horse that I have to shear each year, and that is 2 too many!! I'll make sure that I get lambs from ewes that shed well. I'm not sure I could get grown ewes at all. I've seen pictures of hair sheep that weren't shed out and looked like one big mat. I think that would trigger my OCD big time. I don't mind if I have to pull hair off, but it has to be coming off for me to do that.

http://www.asherdellfarm.com
I've taken a few lessons here. I enjoyed it but my knowledge is limited. It is much closer to you. She is an older woman so I don't know if she still gives lessons. Stuart Ballentyne used to give lessons on her farm too. Might as well check it out.

Thanks!

[Liz P]

With that few animals, your stock can get "sour" very fast. You need to decide if you are keeping stock for the dogs or dogs for the stock. If the sheep are really for the dogs, you might do best buying hair sheep and selling them off a few times a year to keep them fresh. Or maybe you can find someone who breeds sheep that will let you keep some on your property, regularly swapping them out. Just be aware of bringing in diseases if you get them from the sale barn or people who aren't careful about management.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

How far is Okeechobee from you? Sandy Tindall is in that area. If it's too far, maybe she could assist with finding someone closer to you (same for the sheep situation).

[Journey]

Only really 2 options in Fl imo. David Saunders, outside Tally and Sandy Tindall down in Okee. Though I don't think Sandy is taking on new students.

[Gideon's girl]

Okeechoee is about 2 1/2 hours, I think. That would be worth checking out.

[Gideon's girl]

Tallahassee is really far for lessons. I could go to north GA in that amount of driving time, even most of SC, and a bit of NC.

 

Does anyone have any good ideas for board and train? Or any ideas how much it would cost me?

[Journey]

Tally is by far above and beyond...just saying.

[Gideon's girl]

I may have to start looking for reasons/time to go to Tally.

 

This is the closest good place to get sheep that I have found so far.

http://fairmeadowsheepfarm.com/

I'm an experience horse owner and an experience goat owner, but I grew up thinking that you couldn't even have sheep in Florida, so obviously I'm not at all an experienced sheep owner.

 

What questions should I be asking? I've read everything on their(and several other's) website, so I know they are breeding for shedding, parasite resistance, twinning, weight gain, thriving on poor pasture. What am I missing?

[juliepoudrier]

If you're used to raising goats, the same questions you'd ask a goat breeder are fine to ask a sheep breeder. Some diseases are different, but really other than that it's essentially the same. The biggest issue for you will be the problem with added copper in the diet for sheep. If you're keeping sheep and goats together, the feeds/minerals used for goats may not be appropriate for sheep (sheep need copper, but can't take added copper). The same goes for horse feeds and minerals, which will likely also have too much copper for sheep. Other than that, raising them is pretty similar.

 

As for trainers, avoid all-breed trainers if possible. Also look at what any potential instructor is him/herself doing. For example, if the trainer is trialing in noivce, consider whether that's someone who should have put their trainer's shingle out in the first place. Likewise with someone who trains/trials for AKC and AHBA (unless those are the venues you aspire to).

 

J.

[Maxi]

 

What questions should I be asking? I've read everything on their(and several other's) website, so I know they are breeding for shedding, parasite resistance, twinning, weight gain, thriving on poor pasture. What am I missing?

In addition to what has already been said, I'd check for lameness (and the level of incidence in their flock) and also vaccination history..

 

Once on your farm, put them through a footbath and if possible yard them for 48 hours while you check them over, Also worm them and treat for scab. However some wormers eg cydectin can be harmful if the sheep have previously been vaccinated against footrot. (Also If you have any doubt about their health, disinfect and burn all bedding straw after this).Tthen quarantine them in a small field for at least 3 weeks. This way, if they do have something, you won't end up contaminating large areas of your land.

 

I know this may sound excessive to some, but IMO these few precautions can save you a lot of heartache later. (ETA and it is what UK Sheep Health & Welfare Group recommend as good practice).

 

As Julie says minerals and trace elements are also important, so it helps to know what's in your feed and in your ground. Some breeds of sheep are more sensitive to copper toxicity than others and as Julie also said some compound feeds for other species ( e.g cattle) may actually end up killing sheep because of the amount of copper in them.

 

Good luck