Is there a noticeable difference in personality/temperament between BC's from cattle lines vs. sheep lines?

[SoHo]

I've been wondering about this awhile. If, say, you took ten working dogs (5 from cattle working lines and 5 from sheep lines) and put them in a dog park, would you be able guess which were cattle dogs and which where sheep dogs without having to actually see them work? I mean, just by their personality? Or would be just as likely to be wrong as you would right?

 

Intuitively it seems to me that the cattle do would naturally be the confident and outgoing type (also more likely to be dominant and dog aggressive) and the sheep dog would be more likely to be the timid, passive one. But I have no experience with either, so it's really just a guess.

 

Is there a noticeable difference in the personality or temperament of cattle and sheep dogs?

[Gideon's girl]

It really isn't a case of put these dogs on my righthand side and put those on my left. It's more like a spectrum. Some cattle dogs are too aggressive(or whatever term you want to use) for some sheep. Some sheep dogs work cattle just fine. Some dogs are too weak to push sheep that are heavy. So some dogs you could sort into this category or that, but some belong somewhere in the middle, or somewhere else all together. Some you can make that determination based on what you see of their personality, but you might be proved wrong later, and others don't show what they are made of until you put them on stock.

 

My 2 have very different personalities, but my cattle bred dog is also a red dog, and I've heard people say that those are red dog traits, but I've also heard people say that more cattle dogs are red, so it may be both. He was the only red in the litter of 2 black and white parents though. And the father is out of what were sheep dog lines that the guy that bred him found out his dogs do great on cattle and has moved in that direction, but they are still the same dogs. So there is a lot of cross over, as far as lines go, I imagine.

[Debbie Meier]

Hard to tell seeing that each person breeding and selecting are doing so just a little bit differently.

 

You are more apt to identify dogs from the same closer families then simply cattle dog or sheep dog lines.

 

Also, in many cases they are one in the same, we select for cattle work but if you look at our pedigrees some would say sheepdog lines, but when we go to trials often people will ask if our dogs have descended from many of the key "cowdog lines" due to them having a similar "look"

 

 

as far as outgoing, confident, timid, shy, those are typical dog traits, you see the traits show up no matter what the purpose of breeding, no matter what you are breeding for, sheep or cattle, a good solid temperament results in a better dog.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Agree with the above.

 

J.

[Cass C]

Lily is from two working cattle collies, and she is the most shy timid dog I have ever known. But, part of the reason the breeder was letting her go to a non-working home was that she didn't have a cow dog personality. Her brother on the other hand was a very confident dog, and now works cattle.

[GentleLake]

I don't know where the assumption that sheep dogs are timid and/or passive would come from. Most good working sheep dogs I've known have been neither.

 

And why would you expect a cattle dog to be dog aggressive? (Not even going to address the myth of dominance here. )

 

As others have said, neither of those temperaments would be desirable for either kind of stockwork.

[Debbie Meier]

oh, some apply what they have experience with one dog to the entire gene pool that they believe that dog is a member of.

[geonni banner]

oh, some apply what they have experience with one dog to the entire gene pool that they believe that dog is a member of.

Probably true, but also consider the propensity of photographers to show cattle dogs doing this kind of thing:

 

 

Instead of the no-contact pictures you generally see of Border Collies working sheep. If you Google "Border Collies working sheep" you will see a fair number of these. Google "Border Collies working sheep, and the pictures will show very few pictures of a dog gripping.

 

This might lead people to believe that Border Collies bred to work cattle are "meaner" "tougher" and possibly apt to be aggressive.

[toney]

Having both cattle and sheep and working and trialing both cattle bred and sheep dog bred dogs I haven't seen a difference. My young cattle bred dog is pushy on and off stock. She tries to demand attention when she wants it. My imported pure Welsh sheepdog's personality is the same way. In the living room you could not pick the sheep bloodlines from the cattle one.

[Debbie Meier]

the first of those three cowdog photos is of our dog Jake, sensitive and some would say timid. If you yell at him he slinks off.

[geonni banner]

the first of those three cowdog photos is of our dog Jake, sensitive and some would say timid. If you yell at him he slinks off.

I don't doubt it for a moment. But If people unacquainted with stock handling, and yes, I put myself in that category, see pictures like these, they are apt to draw conclusions. The conclusions will frequently be wrong.

 

This picture turned up on the Daily Mail website.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2353697/Charles-Camilla-lesson-farming-pecking-order-Sheepdog-grabs-hen-neck-demonstration-Prince-Wales.html

 

It looks to the average person like a collie killing a chicken. But in fact the chicken was not harmed. The dog frequently grabs birds who try to take off in this way. The picture was taken during a demonstration for Prince Charles and Camilla.

 

But one can see how a person new to Border Collies could draw the wrong conclusion about the breed or a subset of the breed, like those that work cattle, if they saw a few pictures like the ones in my earlier post. With no explanation it's scary-looking. People are prone to all sorts of irrational ideas - deer are sweet, gentle and harmless - bunny rabbits can't hurt you. And cows are quiet, timid animals. Yeah, sure they are... Especially momma cows with calves!

[GentleLake]

My dog Mirk used to frequently mouth a very nasty rooster we had while he was working the chickens. But he never harmed the bird in the least. (Wish I could say the same for sheep in his early days. )

 

But, yeah, if I'd had a photo of him with that rooster, anyone would have thought he was a chicken killer when there was nothing farther from the truth.

 

ETA: I should add that off stock he had a great temperament. Very biddable, great with kids, good with other dogs -- preferred to ignore non-border collies but was never aggressive.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Tess was from cattledog lines...in fact, most of my dogs are half cattledog lines.....I don't see a difference.

 

One of my students had a Border Collie from a cattle ranch. They bred the dog to "go get them".....they have no outrun,, run up the middle and grab. We did teach the dog to do a outrun but it was a memory induced outrun. Fearless dog tough but grabs at the neck. She does try hard to please and a super, SWEET dog off the stock.

[Debbie Meier]

They bred the dog to "go get them".....they have no outrun,, run up the middle and grab

So very glad that there are a good many breeding for cattle work who don't breed them that way

[Gloria Atwater]

I've been wondering about this awhile. If, say, you took ten working dogs (5 from cattle working lines and 5 from sheep lines) and put them in a dog park, would you be able guess which were cattle dogs and which where sheep dogs without having to actually see them work? I mean, just by their personality? Or would be just as likely to be wrong as you would right?.......

Is there a noticeable difference in the personality or temperament of cattle and sheep dogs?

 

Nope, not that I've ever seen. Their personalities or behavior on stock often have little to do with who they are in a social setting. The personality spectrum is so broad there's just no way to tell. Or as hubby likes to say, six to one, half-dozen to the other.

 

~ Gloria

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Yes, a lot of cattle folks I know don't breed for the straight outrun either.

 

These folks wanted a quick get them type of dog. Oh, yea, they added some color in via Swafford lines. So this dog is merle, but she tries hard and is turning out to be a nice dog. She is one of the sweetest dogs off stock, I ever seen and very gentle nature. No health of personality issue, just a straight outrunner. Or I should say,.."was".....

[kingfisher7151]

I have actually always wondered why all the pictures of cattle dogs involve teeth rather than the average sheepdog pictures. I'm not familiar with the two from a trialing standpoint, so I wondered why the pictures that gain all the "oohs and ahs" are so different. I'm in a number of facebook groups for cattle-bred border collies and all the pictures are just flashes of teeth on heads or heels. Is it that what makes a good cattle dog is the ability to convince stubborn cattle to move, rather than the sheepdog's ability to maintain a calm and collected demeanor? I know from my limited experience that sheepdogs are not allowed to grip during a trial, I assume that is not the case in cattledog trials.

 

As far as temperament, I don't think there's a big difference. I have a cattle bred dog who is very confident and very outgoing, he also appeared to be the most mellow of the litter. Who knows if that stayed true, but he's not at all shy. But I also know a cowhorse trainer who also trains working cattle dogs and some of those dogs despite regular socialization are horribly shy. One would barely walk past Keeper when he was 12 weeks old.

 

Physically though, I think cattle bred and sheep bred are far more obvious. Not always certainly, but if I see a slick coated red dog with a lot of white who's built like a tank and weighs 60 lbs I'm far more likely to guess cattle dog. And am I crazy in thinking that cattle dog feet look really different than sheepdog feet? I swear there's something bear-like about those paws!

[Debbie Meier]

I have actually always wondered why all the pictures of cattle dogs involve teeth rather than the average sheepdog pictures

Working cattle typically requires teeth, just not going to get it done with presence alone. When folks look to adding a dog for cattle work they want to make certain that they are not spending money on a pup that comes from parents with little to no bite and specializes in moving stock with presence, so we end up having to advertise the bite and also the bite placement. If we only showed photos of the dogs working with presence alone, which ours will, those looking for dogs with bite would pass our dogs up.

 

We ourselves like to show a clean as reasonably possible nose (head) and heel bite followed by a release, we don't like the body bites or coming in from the side or under type of bites, those types of biters don't stay around here unless we can control them and they have other good qualities. The goal is to breed that type of biting out, we call it "trash biting".

 

Others like to show dogs that take a hold and don't let go so you see different types of photos featured by them.

 

When you see photos from breeders who specialize in dogs for sheep work your likely going to see different traits featured that would be important to those looking to buy a sheepdog.

 

The cattle typically will figure out that a dog doesn't have teeth if they have no willingness to bite or hold pressure, they will run a dog off and render the dog useless.

 

Ultimately the photos and videos serve as a means to help those looking for future dogs or lines to see what we value in our dogs and how our dogs work.

 

 

Here is a link to a video of a young dog we produced, actually 2, one is a tri-color named Scamper. He is in Oklahoma right now working full time. He is known for biting fairly and not over working, also has a way of not getting into bad spots. The dog working with him is one that has no bite, tries to use all presence, actually does try to use bark at one point. Together they can be effective, but the dog trying to use presence wouldn't have a hope of getting the cattle up into the barn on his own.

[stockdogranch]

Many people working their dogs on cattle don't necessarily trial, but may work their dogs on relatively large groups of cattle that are not dog broke at all. While a good cowdog does not need to bite all the time, it *does* need to be willing to hit both ends, and do so properly. So, when someone is advertising a dog for sale, potential buyers need to see that the dog will bite readily, hence, the popular pics of lots of biting.

A

ETA I see that Deb posted while i was writing...

[kingfisher7151]

That makes perfect sense, it was what I had been expecting but never had actually heard. There is something so incredibly breathtaking about watching a serious dog work. I find dogs working cattle so be so astounding, perhaps a little moreso than sheep. You can find many AKC dogs follow lamely behind sheep (not at all saying that there aren't astounding sheep dogs, I love them too!), but there's something so strong about a true cattle dog. You can't fake that!

 

I should say that watching any dog do what they're bred to do is so satisfying.

[SoHo]

I have also noticed that cattle dog breeders tend to try and breed heavier, big boned dogs weighing 50+ lbs (males, anyway). They mentioned its because a bigger dog will naturally have more respect from a cow, and they want rough and tumble dogs that can withstand more physical punishment.

 

Since there are far more cows than sheep in the US and it's a far larger industry, will the Border Collie eventually be a cow dog in the US?

 

On a side note, when I looked into my pup's pedigree, I found that the side that had all the true working dogs were all cattle dogs. That surprised me because she is very small and light boned. She'll top out at about 30 lbs. and has a small head. Just as surprising is that she looks very much like her grandfather (Bill, owned by Pete Carmichael) from the cattle line. He's a lean, lighter boned looking guy with a small head that looks a lot like my dog.

[mum24dog]

I have also noticed that cattle dog breeders tend to try and breed heavier, big boned dogs weighing 50+ lbs (males, anyway). They mentioned its because a bigger dog will naturally have more respect from a cow, and they want rough and tumble dogs that can withstand more physical punishment.

 

Since there are far more cows than sheep in the US and it's a far larger industry, will the Border Collie eventually be a cow dog in the US?

 

 

 

And if so, should it still be called a border collie?

[Debbie Meier]

To really form a judgment on the dogs builds and working styles you need to look at the individuals that were used to make up that pedigree and also the types of dogs that the breeders liked. If you go back and look at Pete's dogs you will not see the big blocky thick dogs, more lean and fast, some on the small side. Our Jake is from Pete, Pete commented that he was on the large side of his spectrum, about 40-45 lbs.

 

This is Pete's Hooker http://waynescustomleather.com/cattledogs/jake/hooker_rh.jpg

 

Fly: http://waynescustomleather.com/cattledogs/jake/fly_standing.jpg

 

Mouse: http://waynescustomleather.com/cattledogs/jake/mouse_rh.jpg

 

Olie: http://waynescustomleather.com/cattledogs/jake/olie_06.jpg

 

Nap: http://waynescustomleather.com/cattledogs/jake/nap_rh.jpg

 

Go back and find some photos and videos of Bill's parents and grandparents, also 1/2 siblings, he has quite a few, and I think you will see that they may not be the big blocky dogs that your describing above. We actually bred our Ricky to a 1/2 sister of Bill, Jazz. Jazz is what I would call a small dog, works more with presence then bite.

 

Many border collies that get advertised as "cattledogs" are directly traced back to sheepdogs and in truth are sheepdogs.

 

You can find photos of Jazz and a video of her on Bob Johnson's website http://bjbordercollies.com/BJ_Dogs.htm

[emilyfalk]

I have also noticed that cattle dog breeders tend to try and breed heavier, big boned dogs weighing 50+ lbs (males, anyway). They mentioned its because a bigger dog will naturally have more respect from a cow, and they want rough and tumble dogs that can withstand more physical punishment.

I don't have much experience working cattle with dogs, and would certainly bow to Anna and Deb's experiences, but I've worked a lot of different kinds of cattle by myself on foot as a vet. I don't see cattle respecting a 35# dog any differently than a 65# dog based only on size; that's negligible to an animal that weighs 1000# and more. I'm a petite 5'3 and could earn one's respect better than my boss who was easily twice my size. There's so much more to it than size alone.

 

For awhile now I've been considering whether bigger is better in border collies. I've known a lot of big dogs who have had catastrophic injuries while working. We also know that big, fast-growing pups are at an increased risk for orthopedic diseases. I wouldn't dismiss a dog as breeding material based on conformation, but it would make me think twice about the structure of its mate. My preference is for a medium-sized dog; not too big and not too small

 

Anna and Deb, do cattlemen and women put that much emphasis on size, or is it farther down the list of what to consider for a breeding dog?

[Gideon's girl]

The guy I know that is so proud of his cattle working line has small dogs, of course, for all I know that may be why he is so proud of their ability to work cattle. I was there, years ago, when he was finding out how well they did, and he was pretty impressed, before that they were all sheep dogs. But he did tend to like sheep dogs that were a little grippier(is that even a word) than others would like.