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Thanks..

I started them one moth ago.

Tango is one and a half years has little experience with sheep, though some basic obedience. He comes from a good herding dog of USA and her mother was imported from Canada. I have 6 sheep, not very dogged, a round pen and a square one. I also have a friend with a big field and sheep where i sometimes go.

He is a bit strong though has started moving nice.

The videos arent very good but show what I know until know.

TANGO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kktWSiVUPKk&feature=g-crec-u

 

Luna is argentinien, two years, she comes from sheepdogs of uruguay and brazil. She also has little experience with sheep but is very obedient and listens very well.

LUNA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05XBoXSRf68&feature=g-crec-u

 

I am trying to teach them better flanks and to drive.

 

Thanks

 

Paul Walker

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Good quality video. Nice and clear.

 

You made sure that Tango gathered all the sheep toward middle of video, and that was well done. I thought your handling overall was quite good. You have had an excellent teacher, or are a quick self-study.

 

Luna was having a little difficulty taking the "away to me". I don't know how much you have worked with Luna or your intent for that particular session, but you might have considered a "lie down" when she didn't take the first "away" flank command, and repeat the cue in an inviting way from a good body-language position. Be sure she doesn't get in habit of ignoring. You likely decided to wait until you could get yourself into position to give a repeat "away", which is also a reasonable way to handle it.

 

In a couple sequences, Luna's gait did not seem fluid on the "away to me". I thought I saw a few stumbles. Possibly the ground was uneven. Expert horsemen, like you, know all about leading with the outside leg/foot :) I couldn't identify her lead foot from the video. Could an inside lead, particularly on the "away" side, explain her feeling uncomfortable taking the cue? Lots of possible reasons, and I may be over-thinking it. She may have been leading just fine. Just something to be aware of.

 

I recall the first or second time my little border collie was on sheep. Our coach brought her out of the round-pen onto a sloped pasture. She flanked to cover the sheep bolting away, turned hard to get to their heads, fell and proceeded to violently barrel-roll several revolutions, before getting-up and going back to work in a somewhat more methodical manner. Our adviser explained that young dogs can get so excited that they forget to change lead on a quick turning maneuver, and simply tip over. I've never seen her do anything like that before or since.

 

Nice work. They are fortunate dogs. Keep the videos coming. -- Regards, TEC

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Thank you very much... I have no teacher, in fact there arent any here in Chile, this is why i appreciate so much your opinion and tips.

My idea is to learn well to later start my other dog, Jack.

 

Luna is very soft, and I made a very big mistake when she was young... in fact I started her too young and with a herd of rams, their ignorance of Luna made her not interested in herding at all, I had lost hope in her, until one month ago that I started working her again. At first she hesitated but later becomed interested and she is moving better. I also did too much obedience with her, too many downs, this is why I let her move a lot now.

 

Tango likes to go in the back of sheep (kind of driving) but I think he need to learn more to balance and be in front.

 

Best regards from the south and thanks,

Paul Walker

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  • 2 months later...

Thank you very much... I have no teacher, in fact there arent any here in Chile, this is why i appreciate so much your opinion and tips.

My idea is to learn well to later start my other dog, Jack.

 

Luna is very soft, and I made a very big mistake when she was young... in fact I started her too young and with a herd of rams, their ignorance of Luna made her not interested in herding at all, I had lost hope in her, until one month ago that I started working her again. At first she hesitated but later becomed interested and she is moving better. I also did too much obedience with her, too many downs, this is why I let her move a lot now.

 

Tango likes to go in the back of sheep (kind of driving) but I think he need to learn more to balance and be in front.

 

Best regards from the south and thanks,

Paul Walker

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hello Friends

I wanted to tell you my news from the south

Jack is well, less of a gripper and listening to me better. Luna and Tango are ok.

I am organizing a three day clinic with two very well known brazilian handlers, Jose Roberto Arruda and Ivanete Veline, they both come with their dogs, on march 29 to 31st. We will be working on different techniques of starting pups and also with started dogs.

Our farm is in Pucon, near Temuco, in the south of Chile.

You are all invited if anyone of you are traveling around here or would like to come.

best regards from patagonia

Paul Walker

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Great that you are able to organize a clinic - I am sure that you and others will be able to learn a great deal from accomplished and experienced handlers, and each other.

 

Thanks for the invitation!

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Great that you are able to organize a clinic - I am sure that you and others will be able to learn a great deal from accomplished and experienced handlers, and each other.

 

Thanks for the invitation!

 

You are all very welcome!!!

I think this is one of the first times that people interested in sheepdogs get together in these lands... I have many people inscribed who own border collies as pets and use them for frisbees, both from Chile and Argentina.

I am happy because they will help me with Jack. They know a lot and work with good dogs.

greetings from the south

Paul

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Paul,

Thanks for the invite. My sistered used to live in Chile, in Linares. I would love to visit some day....I know it is a beautiful country. I used to live in the north of Argentina....the furthest south I traveled was Bariloche.....a very long time ago. I love South America.

Please stay in touch and don't hesitate to share your progress training.

Regards,

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  • 4 months later...

Hello, I wanted to share with you our news from the south..

We moved to Argentina, we live in buenos aires province, i did a trip to brazil to learn and train and met some handlers there that are training with Jonas Gustafsson method of starting pups.

He recently gave a workshop to the local sheepdog association.

My dog Jack has improved a lot , and wanted to know if anyone knows more about this type of training.

Thanks

Paul Walker

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I am not familiar with Jonas Gustafsson. I found his YouTube Channel, and watched training videos. He trained what appeared to be an under one year old puppy in a small space to demonstrate excellent flanks, down, and walk-up.

 

His dogs appear to have nice pace and distance from sheep, particularly on the drive. He has a quiet demeanor.

 

IMO he got good results in the three videos I watched. -- Kind regards, TEC

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Hello...

He showed us to work with the pup making it face a small herd of sheep in a square pen, the dog attached to a long line, letting him walk towards the head of the herd in a slow and calm manner, and whenever he wants to go fast we hold the line, then he soon understand that slow is the way.

We with the dog behind him, keeping no slack in the line. Always entering the herd in 90 degrees, letting the dog face the herd until it moves slowly, no commands first, then slowly the including the walkup and lie down.

My dog was fast, he didnt listen to me sometimes and griped, and with this method i feel he trusts himself more, and I also can control him better. The lie down is a tool for cleaning his mind and starting once again, after I decide to.

The idea is that the fetch is inside the dog, not the drive, this is why the dog meets the sheep in a 90 degree and is taught to push slowly.

Jack is now learning his flanks and doing small drives. I will send videos once somebody can film.

Best regards from the cold south

Paul Walker

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  • 1 month later...

Hello Friends

I finally made two videos of Jack working, one in a middle size pen,

 


and another in a small pen,
I appreciate any opinions and apologoize for the ignorance
thanks
Paul
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Hi Paul!

Jack is looking very nice. :) I've a couple observations straight off. One, get out of the small pen. He doesn't need that and it's pretty confining, so it's time to move on from there. Two, do you have some lighter sheep? Those are pretty heavy and at least a couple of them are turning to face him when he comes in.

Third and most importantly, when you send him to gather, make sure he's coming all the way to balance. Here in these two videos, he's not quite doing that. He goes out very nicely, but he comes in to his sheep at about 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock of the circle and then lies down. You can see the sheep sort of moving off him at an angle, rather than coming straight towards your feet.

I would want him to go all the way around to the top, until he's completely at balance, and make sure he brings the sheep directly to you in a straight line. Also, because the sheep are heavy, I would stop him lying down when he gets to his sheep. I would have him turn and just keep walking in to move them. The sheep are turning to face him because he stops and lies down once he gets there, and they think he's actually losing a bit of power. I don't think he's a soft dog, I think he's just been encouraged to lie down as soon as he reaches his sheep, and he's stopping a bit short of balance.

So, I'd say make him go around them all the way to the top, then turn and walk straight into the sheep. He has lovely pace and feel, so I don't think he's apt to rush in and be rash. Trust him to flow more and make sure he brings the sheep firmly and smoothly straight to your feet.

Finally, if you can, get him out in a bigger space! If you have a little field to work in, I think he's quite ready to go outside. And if the sheep want to run away a little, all the better! That will teach him to gather them properly and completely and come right to balance, and bring them directly to you.

My tuppence, anyhow! :) Keep up the good work.

~ Gloria

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Hello Gloria. Thank you very much for your reply and opinions. You went straight to my doubts, and I would like to explain why he is doing this.

 

I learnt this method in Brazil and Jack has been learning it very well.

We live in the Pampa, where there arent many sheep, (lots of soy and cattle) so he has little training. Next week I will change sheep.

 

The idea of this method is that a dog has, in his genes, the ability to go to 12 o clock and bring the sheep to you, and this is would be the second thing he must achieve, first is control and confidence that he can work his sheep.

And for this, he must learn to arrive at 3 or 9 o clock and do a small drive, slow and in control.

 

First you teach him with a cord, to face the sheep, letting him walk only if his approach is slow and calm, this helps him in his confidence and sense of control, in a small pen, but you are right Jack is happier outside, in a bigger pen.

 

The problem I had with him is the gripping, any time he felt he was loosing control he would grip hard and I didnt know how to take this out of him. He doesnt grip anymore, only rarely. And I also lost control of him too.

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks

 

Paul

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Nice dog, and wish mine had a down as firm and varied as Jack's. You were able to down him a few feet in front of the sheep (he's brave), and like you said, at 3 and 9 o'clock. With his solid down, penning and shedding should be easy to train, when they come time .

 

My personal preference for initial small pen training is to have the dog continue all the way around to balance (like Gloria suggested), especially when scooping stock from a corner. It was interesting that you could down Jack near the fence, and that your sheep left the corner merely against pressure of his eye/presence. My sheep would have just stood in place until my dog physically scraped them out at 12-balance. If Jack can regularly use solely his eye to exhaust sheep from a corner, it may be safer for him. On the other hand, IMO not many sheep will behave that well, so you may want to keep the flow going, and let Jack scoop from corners without a prefatory down. Since he'll have to enter confined pens and trailers to exhaust, it may be good training to get him started going into corners. I saw him pull sheep off a fence-line straight from the flank with ease, so he can do it.

 

I'm no doubt repeating some of the things Gloria said, hopefully with a little different perspective. She makes very good points, and well written as well. My instinct says that numerous downs, lots of pace control, and a confined space may have led to the gripping you described. Like Gloria said, assuming Jack knows 12:00 o'clock balance, it may be time to get him into a larger field where you can continue flanks, clock-work, walk-ups, mixed with pure balance exercises. You might consider putting a "there" command on Jack, allowing him to flank and turn directly onto sheep without need for a down.

 

Best wishes. Jack is fortunate to have an experienced animal trainer, one who clearly seeks to learn. -- Kind regards, TEC

 

PS -- You are in cattle country. Don't Pampas cattlemen have a special breed (or cross?) for that work? Internet makes reference to Patagonian Sheepdogs and a bearded Barbucho. Do they use Border Collies on cattle?

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Hello Thank you very much for your advice.. It all makes lots of sense and I will follow all of it. I now got Jack to a larger field, changed some of the sheep, and will start working tomorrow morning. I enjoy learning with him... his only problem is my ignorance (at least this is how I see it).

Many people have border collies but they carry them on the back of their trucks, and some work cattle but mostly straight, bighting with little o no flanks. I saw much better cattle dogs working in Brazil.

The Barbucho is more popular in the south, Patagonia, here in this area I am the only one with working border collies.

Now sheepdogs are getting popular in Buenos Aires and Patagonia, there is a new organization (SAPA) that wants to promote sheepdogs and do some workshops, and all work on this same method, and they all are under the influence of brazilians, as they are much more evolved than we are.

I will write to you after my big field experience...

All the best from the south and thanks again

Paul

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Hello Thank you very much for your advice...Many people have border collies but they carry them on the back of their trucks, and some work cattle but mostly straight, biting with little or no flanks. I saw much better cattle dogs working in Brazil.

 

The Barbucho is more popular in the south, Patagonia, here in this area I am the only one with working border collies.

 

Now sheepdogs are getting popular in Buenos Aires and Patagonia, there is a new organization (SAPA) that wants to promote sheepdogs and do some workshops, and all work on this same method, and they all are under the influence of Brazilians, as they are much more evolved than we are.

Best wishes with your work. As you know Border Collies are very capable of nicely moving cattle. Maybe you can show Argentine farmers how to properly use them. I have seen BCs work cattle very similarly to sheep, without the in-your-face barking/lunging and hock-biting that to me seems counterproductive. Nice flanks and staying off the stock. There is always the rank cow, or cattle that have never seen dogs, but BCs can handle them, as well. -- Kind regards, TEC

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Hello TEC, Thanks for your good wishes...

I have a dream to make Jack a good sheepdog. I also have two bitch pups that would like to train and breed.

 

Here are my news of the big field,

The sheep are very wild, they bolt, and the only way Jack can stop them is by flanking wide and crushing at the top, sometimes griping one on the face or neck. Jack also goes very fast, I can stop him but not as sharp as in the pen.

 

He doesnt know how to get to 12, he rushes to 1 or 2, and then to 10 or 11.

 

Do I have to down him at 12? or I make him find his place?

 

When doing a small drive he sometimes stays at one side, not in the center, and as sheep are heavy, sometimes one or two stay in the back as he pushes the other 4.

Should I stop him and make him get the ones in the back?

 

 

Do you think I should concentrate in finding balance and bringing the sheep to me?

 

I am doing this twice daily, the sheep are in a big field of 5 hectares and I make them sleep and feed in a pen.

Jack is one year and a half, loves to work. I do a hard session and an easy one in the pen. How often do you think I should work him??

 

Thank you very much

 

Paul

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Hello Gloria. Thank you very much for your reply and opinions. You went straight to my doubts, and I would like to explain why he is doing this.

 

I learnt this method in Brazil and Jack has been learning it very well.

We live in the Pampa, where there arent many sheep, (lots of soy and cattle) so he has little training. Next week I will change sheep.

 

The idea of this method is that a dog has, in his genes, the ability to go to 12 o clock and bring the sheep to you, and this is would be the second thing he must achieve, first is control and confidence that he can work his sheep.

And for this, he must learn to arrive at 3 or 9 o clock and do a small drive, slow and in control.

 

First you teach him with a cord, to face the sheep, letting him walk only if his approach is slow and calm, this helps him in his confidence and sense of control, in a small pen, but you are right Jack is happier outside, in a bigger pen.

 

The problem I had with him is the gripping, any time he felt he was loosing control he would grip hard and I didnt know how to take this out of him. He doesnt grip anymore, only rarely. And I also lost control of him too.

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

 

Hi Paul ~

 

Thanks for all your thoughtful replies here. It's wonderful to talk with someone who clearly has his dog's best interests at heart. I do hope we all can help you continue to make good progress. :)

 

Some more thoughts from me ... The technique from Brazil is an interesting one, and I think I'd have to understand it better to agree with it. As it stands, from my distant vantage point, I feel it may not be quite fair to a young dog. I feel it's MOST instinctive for a border collie to learn control and confidence with his sheep by bringing them directly to you, his partner and handler. To my perspective, the method I see in the videos could be rather stressful on a young dog, because he's not allowed to fully employ his natural instincts. By not allowing him to utilize that in-born urge to come to balance and bring the sheep, I wonder if that method could confuse him because he's being asked to disregard his instincts and do something that may feel entirely wrong. If you teach a dog to always come in off-balance, he could lose that feel for balance and then you'd be trying to train it back in.

 

Since you say that he is a youngster who will grip when he feels loss of control, I suspect that he should first become confident about doing things that work with his instincts, not against them. Then as he progresses further and the grips disappear, then you can start asking him to stop off-balance at 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock or wherever. But you don't want to accidentally build on his anxiety about losing control, by not letting get confident about bringing the sheep to you. If he's still gripping sometimes, he still needs you to be a strong partner and help him out, help make the job understandable and relatively easy for him. That is my take on this, anyhow. :)

 

Some more below ....

 

 

... Here are my news of the big field,

The sheep are very wild, they bolt, and the only way Jack can stop them is by flanking wide and crushing at the top, sometimes griping one on the face or neck. Jack also goes very fast, I can stop him but not as sharp as in the pen.

 

He doesnt know how to get to 12, he rushes to 1 or 2, and then to 10 or 11.

 

Do I have to down him at 12? or I make him find his place?

 

When doing a small drive he sometimes stays at one side, not in the center, and as sheep are heavy, sometimes one or two stay in the back as he pushes the other 4.

Should I stop him and make him get the ones in the back?

 

 

Do you think I should concentrate in finding balance and bringing the sheep to me?

 

I am doing this twice daily, the sheep are in a big field of 5 hectares and I make them sleep and feed in a pen.

Jack is one year and a half, loves to work. I do a hard session and an easy one in the pen. How often do you think I should work him??

 

Thank you very much

 

Paul

 

Okay, if the sheep are really wild in the big field and making things hard for him, (something the videos in the smaller areas didn't show) then perhaps continuing his lessons in a slightly smaller space will be what he needs, for now. (But not that little smallest pen!) From what you're saying here, perhaps your lessons about coming in at 10 and 2 o'clock worked a little too well, and now you may have to remind him how to come in at balance. :) Going back to a somewhat smaller area may help that.

 

When you do work in the big field, will the sheep stand to eat some hay while you send your dog to gather? Or will they stand with a person, if someone waits out there with them to keep them calm until your dog comes in?

 

Also, how far are you sending him, when you worked in the bigger field? Are you starting at a close distance like in the pen, or are you sending him on longer outruns? Since he's used to the smaller gathers/outruns, you may have to start that same distance in the big field, and only gradually extend the outruns to longer distance.

 

Another question I have is, when he rushes to 1 or 10 o'clock on the gather/outrun, are the sheep turning straight towards you, or are they running off at a bad angle that does not bring them to you? The thing to remember is that "balance" may NOT always be at 12 o'clock. Depending where the sheep want to go, if they would rather bolt to a barn or a favorite part of the field, the point of balance will change. Perhaps he will need to go to 1 or 10 o'clock to prevent the sheep running somewhere else.

 

The same goes for driving. Only very rarely will a dog drive the sheep from directly behind them at 12 o'clock. Most driving is going to consist of the dog being off to one side or the other, to keep them going straight.

 

So, in summary, your dog is only in the wrong position if the sheep are going to the wrong place. If the sheep are going right, your dog is going right, even if his position seems a little odd to you.

 

As for working dogs, I personally try to work my dogs twice a week, three times once in a while. Each work session is anywhere from 5 to 20 minutes, depending what I'm doing and what the dog needs. If I'm doing shorter sessions, I'll work the dog, bring him/her in for water and a rest, (plus let the sheep rest,) then go back out for another short session. Then I'm done. I try to save the longer sessions for when I'm preparing for a trial and I want to work on the very long drives, or some such. When working long sessions, I only work once, then I'm done for the day.

 

Advise I've heard is that one should always quit a training session while the dog is still keen. Don't train on him until he's all tired out, because he stops learning when he's exhausted. Stopping while he's still fresh means the lesson will remain fresh in his mind.

 

Again, just my thoughts and of course others will have their ideas to offer, as well. You must do what works best for you and your dog. :)

Respectfully,

 

Gloria

 

 

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Hello Gloria

Thank you very much

It is wonderful to learn from you all...

I will change the field and start today, and do smaller excersises letting

Jack bring the sheep to me, and helping him, it was a bit too much for him.

Thanks again to all and will write more soon

Best regards

Paul and Jack

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Gloria and TEC... Thank for your help¡

I did two small videos of Jack working, seeing them now I realize I should do the exercise wider and longer, but for know the sheep are very wild and I have to work them with another dog to tire them a bit first.

I will do it in the field after, only that it is like 2 hectares, but the sheep are a bit more calm now.

This is the 3rd or 4th time I do this exercise with Jack, you can see him how he is and how I train him; he is always 3 or 4 gears faster than I would like, and comes too near the sheep, the only way I can slow it down is to stop him. Also turns tight around the sheep sometimes. Do you think this will improve with time? or should I do something special with him?

Thank you very much...

Paul

first video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYrSTgrWrDc&feature=youtu.be

second

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrX2SmPHt0k&feature=youtu.be

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