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Well, I think I am getting a puppy.....


D'Elle
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I think, Christina, one thing that you might be overlooking is an individual dog's ability to learn and exercise self control.

 

A dog can be very driven to chase, but if the dog has self control, he or she can keep that drive in check. It doesn't mean that the dog is bored or uninterested, just that the dog has the ability to choose to refrain from chasing the car, etc.

 

My youngest is a working bred Border Collie and he has plenty of drive. I give him appropriate outlets for that drive and he is an extremely happy pet. Sure, he would enjoy working stock (he had the opportunity to be introduced and has had maybe 10 - 15 sessions in the round pen with sheep), but that is not something that I enjoy, so he doesn't get to do it. But he isn't pining for sheep. He knows how to direct his interest into other things in life. He relishes the opportunity to train with me for sports, to play games out in the yard, to interact and play with my other dogs, to swim, to hike, to visit with his human friends at training classes, to assist me as I teach training classes, to accompany me around the house and property as I do everyday chores, etc. He puts 100% of his mind into being a good pet and companion and he is fantastic at it. Probably the best of all four of my dogs. He is an active and engaged pet. He would not make a good pet for someone who really wanted a couch potato and left him completely to his own devices. But for me he is the perfect pet.

 

When we adopted him, he was a car chaser. He was triggered by any motion, actually - cars, other dogs running, dogs doing Agility, etc.

 

I found out how to teach him self control. Now I can trust him, off leash, in our driveway. There is no barrier between us and the road where cars might go by - some very fast, and horses and buggies, as well. He doesn't chase them - he is safe in that space. Not because he lacks drive, but because he has learned self control.

 

Granted, there are individual dogs of all types who can find it challenging to learn self control. FWIW, this is true of people, as well. Some people really struggle with self control, others find exercising self control to be second nature. So, there certainly are dogs who might struggle with the ability to exercise self control throughout their lives.

 

I don't have extensive first hand experience with working bred Border Collies, but based on my experience with this one, I would choose a working bred Border Collie as a pet and sport partner without any worries about the dog being happy as a pet and sports partner. I actually would expect that a working bred Border Collie, generally speaking, would have a greater capacity for learning self control than one bred for other purposes. I am generalizing, and I know that is a dangerous thing to do. But that is where I stand on the matter.

 

I don't know if that helps, but I thought it might be something for you to consider.

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Christina,

 

Can you take this to another thread? All this about "your dogs" and how "you know they are herding cars" is not relevant to helping the OP make a sound wise choice about where to purchase her next puppy. I've seen several of your posts on various "other" threads and you seem to hijack the thread and argue with the posters simply based on your experience. Your experience has not helped the OP in this thread and has hijacked it so far off topic that I am wondering if any of us can help her publicly.

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Christina,

 

Can you take this to another thread? All this about "your dogs" and how "you know they are herding cars" is not relevant to helping the OP make a sound wise choice about where to purchase her next puppy. I've seen several of your posts on various "other" threads and you seem to hijack the thread and argue with the posters simply based on your experience. Your experience has not helped the OP in this thread and has hijacked it so far off topic that I am wondering if any of us can help her publicly.

 

My apologies for continuing off topic discussion on this particular thread. I personally feel the other accusation is not warranted since this is the first time I've managed to stray so far from the topic, but I'm learning to expect that. I will take this elsewhere.

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Well, if perhaps helping me publicly is at this point difficult, anyone who is so inclined can certainly offer me assistance privately, and I will be grateful. I am now doing some thinking. I appreciate what I have learned, and I am grateful that the sharp arrows have stopped hitting me. I have the best of intentions. If you PM me, we can have a conversation through email. If this thread continues on my original topic, I will continue to post replies. Thanks.

D'Elle

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Well, D'Elle, I just have to say that with regards to your original post, I think this has been one of the most civil, instructive, and worthwhile "I'm looking to buy..." topics I've seen in a while. You've gotten some tremendous advice, a couple of remarks that are (I believe) based in the frustration that people often feel, and seem to have the desire to make a good choice.

 

I sincerely hope it all works out well for you and whatever dog/pup is in your future. Best wishes!

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Well, D'Elle, I just have to say that with regards to your original post, I think this has been one of the most civil, instructive, and worthwhile "I'm looking to buy..." topics I've seen in a while. You've gotten some tremendous advice, a couple of remarks that are (I believe) based in the frustration that people often feel, and seem to have the desire to make a good choice.

 

I sincerely hope it all works out well for you and whatever dog/pup is in your future. Best wishes!

I completely agree with you, Sue. And I enjoyed Root Beer's post, because it is gently nudging the thread back on topic, that is to say, a working-bred border collie can be a wonderful pet. Because they're so darn *teachable!*

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And I enjoyed Root Beer's post, because it is gently nudging the thread back on topic, that is to say, a working-bred border collie can be a wonderful pet. Because they're so darn *teachable!*

Absolutely! But, with the caveat I like to remember, in the right hands - and I think D'Elle can and will provide that kind of ownership.

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Actually I have been pretty upset about this, although I am getting my head around it now. I feel very bad that my post was the catalyst for two breeders who were kind and welcoming to me to be on the receiving end of public negative comments. I am not one for public bashing. Please do not reply saying they deserve it. I am asking, please, that we don't say more about those folks.

 

On the other hand, although I thought I was doing all the Right Things, carefully getting a recomendation from someone in the know, a person with USBCHA, it turns out I was falling short. My intentions were only the best and I had no way of knowing I might be making a mistake. I am now actively looking for a puppy from a breeder who is not affiliated with the AKC. After a lot of thought I realized that although I am sure that breeder has lovely smart healthy dogs, and if I got one of the puppies I would no doubt be very happy with her, I cannot buy from there. For years now I have agreed with what is said on these boards and have voiced my own criticism of the AKC, especially with regard to BCs. I do my best to walk my talk. And I am grateful to you folks for pointing out to me that I was, however unintentionally, failing to do that.

 

You see, the thing is that I thought about posting here on these boards in the first place, asking for a recomendation for a breeder. But I have seen people shredded by the ascerbic comments people on these boards sometimes make to people, and I was afraid to ask.

 

When I responded in innocence to the query and told the name of the breeder I had talked to, no one asked me how I happened to choose that kennel. People just started slinging arrows, and it hurt.

 

Now, I have learned a lot from these boards, and have gotten a lot of helpful suggestions over the years when I have asked for assistance. I value this forum and all of you very highly, and feel lucky that I can get information from a group of people who know what they are talking about. I understand that many of you feel you are banging your heads against walls trying to educate people and the frustration it produces is completely understandable. That's why you blasted me, and I understand that. It wasn't personal, and the tide turned quickly when it became clear that I had not just called a phone number I found in the Nickle Ads or something.

 

Now there are people trying to help me get a good puppy, for which I am very grateful. But sometimes I wonder if more good could be done with gentleness in this world than with anger, scorn, and accusations.

 

I have a couple of leads, and am more than happy to entertain more ideas if people have them for me. I still hope to have a puppy by the end of the year so I can do the baby thing in the winter......a much preferable time for it in the desert!

 

And I am still counting on you all for expert advice when I have questions about puppy training, and I am ever so much looking forward to posting baby pictures. I can hardly wait.

my best to all,

D'Elle

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Oh, and how could I forget...................I also want to say a big thank you to those of you who wished me well, to Julie for her post laying it all out for me clearly and for your comments that you don't buy into the concept that working dogs are wasted in companion animal homes, to smokjbc for the clarifications, to everyone who has offered help, and especially to Sue R. for the vote of confidence that I can be the "right hands" into which to place a good puppy.

 

I certainly intend to do my best.

:rolleyes:

D'Elle

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I have the kennel with the litter coming up that has been bashed on this forum. I am hurt that a group of Border Collie fanciers would feel the need to name call and criticize someones breeding practices without talking to them directly to hear their stance on the subject.

 

I agree that many of the conformation bred dogs cannot compare with a true working dog. And yes I would consider ALL my border collies true working dogs. Until you have worked or seen my dogs work you cannot say otherwise. Either of my BCs would be excellent open level working dogs with the right training. If my mentor, Molly Wisecarver owned either of these dogs they would already be at that level but alas, I am not as good of a trainer as she is and I am still learning the sport of herding. I live in Arizona, I don’t know if many of you have looked at how many USBCHA trials there are in my area but Im lucky if there is one a year. That would mean traveling to California or New Mexico just to hit a trial or two. I have an 8 month old son, at this point in my life that is unrealistic.

 

I want to make a point to state that AKC doesn’t ruin breeds, it’s the breeders and fanciers within AKC that ruins the dogs. Breeders make the decisions to breed dogs for looks rather than working ability. I agree, the border collie as a whole is being ruined by such practices. I feel that the true test for the breed is versatility, Border Collies should have the drive and working ability to do those Open Trials but they should also have the control to work in an arena. By boycotting AKC, you arent changing anything, you are making the problem worse. Face it, when people are looking for a puppy they look for AKC, and if all they see is a black and white st. Bernard looking border collie then that’s what they will get. Rather than standing against AKC why don’t we ban together and show AKC what a “real” border collie is. Did you know that many judges have NO idea that Border Collies can come in anything but Rough coat? Shame isn’t it? I take my dogs to conformation shows, their little bones and lack of coat, and goofy ears and you know what, unless they are the only dog in the ring they lose. And Im ok with that because at some point there will be a judge that appreciates them and that is the payoff that I need. AKC needs to change their mind about what a border collie is and unless the people breeding the right type of dogs don’t step up then its not going to happen.

 

Don’t think a well trained beagle can get through the AKC course because obviously that’s not true. Have you competed in an AKC trial? Its much harder than you are giving it credit for. I will agree that USBCHA trials are MUCH more difficult and truly you need a nice dog to be competitive but you also need a nice dog to be competitive in AKC trial events. I do feel that USBCHA is the ultimate test for a border collie, I watched the live stream on my computer and am always amazed at the training and ability of these dog and handler teams. AKC needs to be changed from the inside out, boycotting them will do nothing. I have personally witnessed the Australian Shepherds being ruined by such boycotting. Last year the winner of an ASCA trial never once looked at the sheep, pottied in the ring and was more interested in eating sheep droppings than working its stock. Is this what you want to see at AKC events? Unless good dogs are there working, its only going to get worse. AKC people compete to win, so I challenge you to bring your dogs to an AKC trial and wipe the floor with these mediocre dogs. Unless good dogs are out there, standards will start to drop, hence worsening the problem for everyone involved. Face it, AKC is here to stay, so bite the bullet and raise the bar to what you feel is the correct border collie, rather than sitting at the sidelines, mocking those who are trying to better the breed, and watching it fall.

 

Both my border collies come from long lines of Open Level dogs, competitive open trials, meeker and steamboat just a few short years ago. Just because I choose to register and compete with AKC most certainly does not make my dogs any less of a true working border collie. If at any time anyone is in the Arizona area I encourage you to come out and work my dogs. You will realize that yes, they are true working stock dogs. I am not ruining the breed because I choose to register with AKC as well as ABCA.

 

In regards to my litter, Rylee my bitch, comes from Molly Wisecarvers lines, she has many many open working dogs, she herself only has a leg towards her started title because when I was ready to trial her she had just turned 9 months and I myself was pregnant. After that trial I did little training and no trialing up until a few short months ago. In those few short months that she has been back working she is doing extremely well with her outruns and if given half the chance would be an open dog in little time. The male that we bred her to is an extremely strong working dog, he has his advanced in AKC (which means little to any of you im sure) and he has also competed in USBCHA trials and done well, I cannot remember if he is running pro novice or novice. Both of his parents were/are running open level USBCHA trials and placing.

 

 

 

Thank you for your time in reading this and if anyone would like to contact me privately to discuss my stance feel free to email me at mandy@chaosstockdogs.com or call me at 928-308-6202

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I have competed in AKC as well as AHBA and ASCA. I also compete in the USBCHA trials. The arena trials are no where near the open field trials.

 

My first few years were in AKC. Some of the courses are like a good PN course but no where as near as hard as an Open course. The sheep that I worked in the AKC trials were trial trained, course broke, whatever you call it...up here, they are all like that.

 

I can see your point where in AZ you are limited BUT go to the trials that require driving....or send your dog to a handler who can showcase your dog.....there are ways to showcase the the dogs you state that have the talent. Once your dogs display the gumption to win or place highly in a few (field) Open trial, then it will be a moot point regarding if your dogs are good enough or not.

 

Bring a top handler in your area to give a clinic and lessons...that is how our area got it's start and now, we are a hot bed for trials. I would love to see you succeed with your dogs.

 

I hope to meet you someday on the trial field and we can swap dog stories.

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Chaosstockdogs,

 

I'm glad you are able to come here and state your point of view. But the things you say are the same things we've all heard and discussed many, many, many times over the years. We just don't agree. It does not agree with the philosophy of this board. I think you would find many of the points you try to make refuted even within this thread if you read it. But best of all, to understand the philosophy of this board, whether or not you wish to agree with it:

 

Read This Sticky

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Hello Mandy,

 

Thank you for your reply on this thread. You have given the reasons why you choose to compete with your Border Collies in venues other than USBCHA sheepdog trials, and you are certainly entitled to pursue any activity that you choose with your dogs. However, you are also choosing to breed your dogs, dogs that have not yet proven their merit and worthiness. Breeding unproven dogs based on their pedigree and what they show early in training is seen as a problem for most of us. So, have fun with your dogs in whatever venue that you choose. But, please rethink your decision regarding breeding your dogs until they have truly proven themselves as working dogs.

 

Regards,

nancy

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I doubt that many folks here would consider themselves "Border Collie fanciers". The "Fancy" is located far from most members' goals and doesn't garner much respect here. And if I had a nickel for everyone who is convinced their dogs would be Open level dogs "if only", both my husband and I might be able to retire right now.

 

Thank you, Denise and Nancy, for your comments. Well said.

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Either of my BCs would be excellent open level working dogs with the right training.

 

You cannot know this. It is very, very easy to say. (It's akin to saying that I could be an Olympic soccer player, if only I'd stayed with it. I was very good as a youth, in the beginning classes, but I couldn't make it to all the games in the traveling league, so I'll just assume I'd continue to have what it takes to be a pro.) But (unless you are one of the few very experienced, top-level border collie trainers) you cannot really know, for example, how easy it might be to compensate for the holes in your dogs (and every dog has them), or how well they work with someone to perform specific sophisticated tasks with precision, until you've trained them to the level of upper-level ISDS-style trialing. And without this kind of knowledge, how could you know who might be an appropriate breeding partner for your dog? Who would best complement your dog's strengths and weaknesses? You can't, and that is why it is disingenuous to assume your breeding program is above reproach from the people who are in fact proving their dogs individually in an effort to maintain the border collie breed.

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