Hazel isn't getting better...

[rwinner]

I don't know what to do. I am so upset. She's been on the prescription anti-inflammatories for a couple weeks now, we've been doing rehab exercises, her weight is down finally.

 

But she just gets worse. She's developing normal pain related problems like aggression, and some odd ones. She just doesn't listen anymore, will do whatever she wants (countersurf, chew random things, pretty much any trouble she can find) and no amount of training/correction/redirection will deter her. She used to be very biddable. During exercise now she will sometimes get the zoomies, but they aren't your average puppy zoomies. She runs around in circles snarling and biting, and if you try to catch her she can get quite aggressive. She gets them less often on grass, but I can't do walks on sidewalks anymore because that always leads to aggressive zoomies. I know its pain because the second she gets in her crate she just lays down, moans, and sleeps. She can only handle about 10-15 minutes of exercise a day now, even then sometimes I see her hobble on three legs or have trouble squatting to pee. She always walks/runs strangely now, trying not to put weight on the one leg. Rehab stuff is getting hard. She has no desire to train, and gets aggressive when touched on the hindquarters.

 

I really don't know what to do. I feel like I am doing everything I can for her, and she just slowly gets worse anyway. She is not hazel anymore. The only way I can keep her out of trouble in the house is by keeping her on a head halter (not the clip under the chin kind, we have a nylon slip lead that has a clip to adjust size of the loop, you figure-eight it around their nose). But she hates it. But its either that or deal with an aggressive dog that is getting into trouble ALL the time.

 

Her behavior is reminding me of Tess, my brothers dog when I was a kid. She got out of a fence and was hit by a car and broke her hip. It was pinned and healed okay, but got arthritic five years later. She just stopped caring about things. She wouldn't listen to commands and got into trouble in the house when those things never were a problem when she wasnt in pain.

 

I know aggression is a typical pain response, but I have never read about dogs that just start doing whatever they want and refuse to listen no matter what. Is this typical? I feel guilty, because its gotten to a point where at the end of every day, I am tired from trying to manage her all day and sick of it. But shes still my dog. And she was beautiful and perfect and well trained not so long ago. But no matter how much work I put into her, nothing gets better, only worse, and I feel horrible for it.

 

I think its only so difficult because she's so young. If I honestly ask myself what I would do if this were an older dog, I know what the answer would be. And I would feel alot better about it than I do with her. She still has the energy and vibrancy of a pup sometimes and I hold out for those moments. People at the dog park see her run and play for the ten or so minutes we are there and think I'm crazy when I say she has severe hip problems, but they dont deal with her at home after the adrenaline wears off. They dont notice her turn and yip if a dog gets too close to her hips, or watch her fall over trying to pee or get onto a couch. I wonder if I am doing the right thing, or just allowing her to suffer.

[Maralynn]

I'm sorry. I can only imagine how much this sucks.

 

How old is Hazel now. Could part of this behavior be due to teenage regression? Because if it weren't for her HD, a lot of that behavior could be attributed to the whole maturing process.

 

But if she's getting significantly less work and training due to the HD then that is also contributing.

[rwinner]

Shes a little over a year. Birthday was in March. I have also wondered about teenage regression, but it just doesnt seem to fit the bill. The only times I've EVER seen her disobey a command or correction was when it was some physical need (ie she wasn't the best at letting me know when she needed to poop or going at consistent times because of some stomach troubles and would briefly disobey a heel command, or a correction, to pull on the leash and go. then she would go right back to normal behavior.) This is exactly like that disobedience, but it doesn't stop.

 

The second reason is her work. She has gradually lost interest in service dog work until recently she has stopped alerting/responding all together. In fact, the other day I needed her and she literally just walked out of the room to find something soft to lay on. Maybe this could also be attributed to her age, but understand that taking care of me was her LIFE. I've never had a herding dog, but she took that natural breed intensity and put it into service work. She used to take it extremely seriously, never letting me down when I needed her. Now our relationship is gone. It would be like a sheepdog slowly losing interest in sheep until you showed it livestock and it just walked away. Also she gets snappy with me, which shes never done. I've seen teenage regression look like "I'm just going to pretend I don't hear you" sort of deal, but nothing this severe. Training does absolutely nothing. We are following the advice of a trainer (who also thinks her behavior is pain related), but she doesnt progress, just continues to go backward. Doesn't regression typically respond (at least a little) to training?

 

I wonder if something deeper isn't going on with her health. She's always had rashes and stomach troubles off and on that the vet couldn't explain. She also had a weird period at about five-seven months where she quit eating and quit growing. That was when we switched her onto raw, which is the only thing she seems able to tolerate. She's always been low energy and a bit lazy with training. I thought it was just her personality, but maybe not.

[gcv-border]

I am so sorry to hear that Hazel is not getting any better. It DOES suck - particularly because she is so young.

 

I hesitate to give any advice because it should be YOUR decision, but I will say that her young age should not be a factor in your decision if her life is as miserable as you describe. A young dog will respond better to treatments and may recover, but of course, you have to know what is wrong to treat - and it sounds like she is a big mystery. The fact that she is so young just makes the situation suck more.

[kingfisher7151]

Poor baby. She actually reminds me a bit of our Trooper. He had lameness issues, tummy troubles, stunted growth, and major fevers. He had TNS, which I highly doubt she has, but I understand what it's like watching a young dog have issues you can't explain. Ultimately, we chose to help Trooper cross over before we had a diagnosis. Which SUCKED. You have the constant doubt of "what if it's something treatable?" playing through your head. It was as weird of a relief as you can imagine to find out that what he did have was indeed fatal.

 

I won't tell you what to do. Nobody can, without knowing Hazel as intimately as you do. I've heard it said that it's time when the dog becomes its illness.

 

Whatever happens, know that you've done your best for your dog. If you have to help her cross the bridge, you are doing the greatest kindness I can think of.

[rwinner]

In the many conversations I've had with my husband (and I mean many.. like daily). We had decided we would probably put her down in early August if I couldn't get her better over the summer. We are in a weird situation where he has a summer internship so we moved cross country a few days ago and will only be here for a few months. I don't know anyone here, don't have a job or classes, and he has a research conference soon where he will be gone for a week. Its selfish but I really want to keep her to help me through the summer, I don't like being alone and have gotten so used to her companionship. August just made sense as a sort of deadline (gosh that sounds bad). However, at the rate she's going, I may end up needing to make the more selfless decision and do it sooner. She just jumped up on the countertop (one of the many ways shes been acting out) fell over, and went to the counch and just layed there making the most pathetic whining noises. Also, we are planning on a new dog late august to train for my new service dog. This might sound harsh but I need my very limited energy to train a new dog, and I don't want her to instill bad habits in a pup either. Also, I worry about her with puppies and children. She gets nippy about her hind end, and I don;t know if/when that will turn nasty. we have to be very careful already.

 

I think the acting out, and even the way she plays lately is just her letting out pent up frustration over pain. Her play has gotten unhealthy, lots of running circles, snarling, barking, and then she crashes in her crate and cries. She wants to chew everything in sight. I don't understand why a dog with HD this bad would be running like that, but it just seems to be how she lets out frustration. She runs like a 3-legged dog though.

 

kingfisher - I'm so sorry about Trooper. But thanks for sharing, your story is exactly how I feel. It just sucks. Shes young, we aren't 100% sure what is going on. All I know is its getting worse and nothing I or the vet or the trainer does is helping. I don't want to wait too long. I waited too long with my dog Belle. She had addisons, was diagnosed at 6, was healthy to about 11 and then just gave up on life. She was a 45 pound SKINNY dog, and got down to about 25 lbs before I made the decision (I know, awful, I was only 19). I don;t want to let hazel get like that, but I don't want to call it too early either. Everything about this decision sucks.

 

I just want to do what is right by her. What you said about the dog becoming its illness makes a lot of sense to me. Thats how it feels, there's almost no hazel left, just her pain. Sometimes shes wiggly and happy and seems normal, but mostly just first thing in the morning, and gets progressivly worse until shes just miserable at bedtime. I think I'm holding on to those few moments when shes normal and tell myself "see! shes fine, shell get better, its worth it for these moments." But most of the time she's purposely in a different room than me, on the softest surface she can find. I though HD was something that they had all their lives, but only got bad when arthritis etc set it. She doesn't have any of that, but she still is moving and acting like an arthritic old dog. I just don't understand. The week I have been able to almost watch her declining daily. Its moving so fast, whatever it is.

 

Sorry if these posts are long and rambling. I have too much time on my hands to think lately and it helps to get it all out.

[jvw]

I'm so sorry you are going through this. There is never any easy answer. You sound like you are really giving this a lot of thought and working hard to do right by her. I commend you.

[gcv-border]

 

I've heard it said that it's time when the dog becomes its illness.

 

This ^^^ Also, I gauge if the dog is having more 'good' periods vs. 'bad' periods.

[Blackdawgs]

There may be something going on in addition to the HD and only you can decide how much time/energy/$$ you want to devote to a diagnosis.

 

It seems like some of the behavior can be brattyness and certainly the move and the stress surrounding the move can contribute.

 

I would stop taking her to the dog park as her grouchiness can cause a fight and it seems that uncontrolled exercise may not be in her best interest.

 

Vets frequently prescribe a cocktail for severely painful dogs--you may want to ask about this.

[urge to herd]

I am so sorry to read about Hazel and her difficulties, it sounds like a nightmare that you can't wake up from.

 

I can share my own bout w/chronic, unremitting pain. I had some back injuries that led to what I think was a compressed nerve coming out of my thoracic spine. I was in severe pain 24/7. It hurt to breathe, it hurt to sit, it hurt to wear anything that compressed my torso at all. The only things I could do that didn't hurt were walking and laying on my right side. Pain was all I could experience for about 9 months.

 

I'm much better now, but your description of Hazel and how her day goes reminds me of what the entirety of my life was like for those 9 months.

 

I think you have to a: put your needs first. You need a service dog you can train and then depend on for 4 or more years. I've got tears in my eyes as I write this, but that dog is not Hazel. The dog you have now is not the dog you thought you were getting, through no fault of your own or Hazel's.

 

I emphasize that last sentence, because b: from what you have written, Hazel has next to no quality of life, and it's getting worse. And c: the stress of caring for Hazel, worrying about her, worrying about getting another dog to train, is probably putting undue stress on you and possibly making your own health situation worse.

 

It's dreadful beyond words to have to put any beloved animal down, and you have invested a lot in Hazel, and love her dearly. I hope you find a way to do what you need for your own well-being, and do the kindest thing for Hazel.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[rwinner]

urge to herd - I know she will never be a service dog again. Walking on hard surfaces and laying on them has been absolutely out of the question for a while now. I was hoping to get her to the point where she could be a good pet, but that just isn't an option either anymore. It sucks. I cry a lot. But you are right, I am spending a ton of mental and physical energy dealing with a dog that isn't doing what I got her for, and has become a detriment instead of a help. Often my husband has to handle her, since her training has gone out the window and I am now using a cane (MS for me and whatever is happening with hazel all happening at the same time, crappy couple of months.) I think today I finally realized that I will need to let her go. I may wait a month or so, to get through the period when my husband will be gone, but if she gets worse I'll do it sooner. This sucks. I don't know why she is getting so bad so fast, its like shes fading before my eyes.

 

kingfisher or anyone else, can you tell me more about TNS? I realize its unlikely, and whether or not she has it wont change my decision, but from what I've read and what you've said she sounds super similar. Her growth and health problems started right after her rabies vaccine - which google tells me is common of TNS pups. Shes always had trouble with diarrhea and severe food sensitivities. The vet diagnosed her rash as an infection, but even with antibiotics she could never fight it off (they are small red dots on her belly, will sometimes look like they are scabbed over, like a picked at insect bite, it goes away with raw food for whatever reason, but comes back if she doesnt eat raw or during stress). She's been running a fever almost every time we take her to the vet. That's why they originally thought pano instead of HD, but the fever didnt go away and they have no explaination for that either. Maybe I'm grasping at straws because it would be nice to have a diagnosis to explain why she is getting so bad so fast, and it would validate my decision, but she does sound awfully similar.

 

The only trouble with delaying putting her down is that I feel like I'm living with a ghost. I felt this way a bit when I made the decision to rehome Brahms. It makes me sad looking at her and knowing what is happening, but happy to still be able to spend time with her. I guess I can only enjoy the times when she is happy and herself, and deal with the rest until it is time.

[GentleLake]

Interesting. Have you looked into rabies miasm? It's not something that's accepted throughout the veterinary community, but if it's a possibility and you're open to it, it might be worth consulting a veterinary homeopath before you make your final decision.

 

Another thing I'll mention is that, being someone who deals with long term chronic pain that's often pretty intense, some of her reactions sound familiar. When my pain levels are high, especially for a protracted period, I'm on a very short fuse and can lash at out the least provocation. It's something I really have to be mindful of so that I can keep it under wraps. Dogs probably don't have the metal faculties to understand this in order to control it.

 

My heart aches for you. I can't imagine going what you're going through. But what the others have said rings so true. When the dog becomes its pain, it's time to consider how to relieve the dog of that burden. There are stretches of time when I feel that way about myself, so I know it will be the greatest kindness you can do for your friend if that's what it comes to. No guilt, no regrets, just love and knowing you're ending her suffering.

[Liz P]

Are you sure something else medical isn't going on? Is there ANY chance someone can help you financially to take her to a specialty hospital?

[kingfisher7151]

I'll give you all the info on TNS that I have, as well as a *brief* synopsis of what happened with Trooper. I will say the odds aren't high that she has it, and it's something that your breeder may be able to rule out. It is a testable genetic condition, so your breeder may have ruled it out.

Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome causes white blood cells to become trapped in the bone marrow, leaving the body effectively without an immune system. Because of this, the body succumbs to repeated infections which cause massive temperature flares. But, it also causes other symptoms not entirely related to the infections. Many, if not most, affected dogs die before they reach 3 months old, and many appear to be fading puppy syndrome since many of the symptoms aren't distinct. Trooper, however, lived to 18 months old, and his sister who has been tested positive was still alive (last I heard) as of a few months ago which puts her at almost two.

I found that it's TOUGH to find much information on it. But one of the first physical symptoms is stunted growth, as well as a sharply pointed, "ferret-like" face. Repeated high fevers are also a hallmark, due to the repeated infections. Unfortunately, all-over joint pain is also a very common symptom.

Trooper started showing symptoms when he was between 8 and 12 weeks old. We adopted him at 9 months old, so while I don't have a personal account of his symptoms, his breeder was able to tell me. He was returned to the breeder at 3 months old after complaints of lameness. He showed up with hot, swollen wrists and some sort of overall goopy infection. During the time they had him he was on antibiotics several other times for URIs, eye infections, gut problems, and a few other things. He was at the vet several times, and they never brought anything up.

When we got him at 9 months old, it became very apparent that after any small amount of stress that he'd have an "episode". During these he'd have diarrhea, a massive 104/105 degree fever, shifting lameness in several joints, a bit of a staggering gait, food refusal, and major lethargy. He'd run and hide in my mom's closet for days on end until the prednisone kicked in. When the pred was helping, it was like there was nothing wrong. He'd run and play and barkbarkbark like a normal dog, but he'd usually pay for it the next day. He was treated for a few different infections while we had him, but it wasn't until he had a nasty tooth abscess that we found his failing kidneys on pre-surgery blood work. About three weeks later, after a 5 day long spell, we brought him back to the vet where we retested his kidneys. He never came back home.

He had a few different little things happen here and there, but that's a pretty fair synopsis. I'll share a video of him less than two months before he died. You can see why it was SO hard to make that decision when he had brief moments of sheer bliss followed by true suffering. If you look through the health section, you can find the thread where I documented the whole saga.

 

[alligande]

I don't have any advice, but I am thinking of you and the horrible situation that you both ended up in. All I can think is there most be more going on, and understand your frustration, even if the outcome is not good, knowing what is wrong is always easier. We had a dog who we never found out what was wrong with him and it was frustrating but after a year plus and continually spending money at the vets who tried really hard and were perplexed, we gave up.

[rwinner]

kingfisher - thanks for sharing. I don't know how long ago that was but I'm sure its still painful to think about. She doesn't run the high fevers, just a constant low one, so probably not likely at all.

 

Also looked into the rabies miasm thing, I'd be open to just about anything at this point but the symptoms just dont fit well.

 

Ugh, I spent too much of yesterday crying over this.

 

What kind of a specialty vet would I even take her to? We have already seen two normal vets, one of which was excellent. I also spoke to an orthopedist who basically said that if I didn't want to do surgery, there wasn't anything he would do that our normal vet wasn't already doing (he was a surgeon). We are also at the disadvantage of being new here (ohio), we don't know anyone so no chance of recommendations to a good vet. We'd just be guessing off of google. That hasn't gone well for me in the past. Also, the only symptom she has actively is the lameness and associated pain. The random rash and stomach troubles were fixed (or at least managed) with raw food. So I'm not sure what else they would say besides HD. Still, open to ideas. Just don't know where to start.

 

The unfortunate reality is, this was unexpected and we are young college students. We aren't as poor as your average college students (thank you graduate stipend), but still. We thought Hazel would be able to work a good 8-10 years, and we put a lot of money and time into her. In reality, I need a service dog, and I need to take care of me before I can help Hazel. Even owner training doesn't come cheap. Between the purchase price of a good puppy (taking absolutely NO chances this time, buying an obnoxiously good quality puppy), training, equipment to outfit it properly... it adds up really fast and we already are looking at crowd funding/ taking out a student loan (hopefully not) because we aren't 100% sure we can save up enough for the new dog in time. Putting a lot of money into Hazel probably isn't the best decision objectively, when there is a very small chance she will have something curable and can return to working (or even have a decent pet quality of life). I specifically asked our vet, whom I trust, about her being a service dog because I had been training and training and doing everything possible to get her back to work and feeling horrible for failing her. He said her behavior and inability to work was pain related, and that if it was him he wouldn't continue to sink time and money into a dog that was unsound, hoping that it would end up being able to work again. His advice was to put her on the pain killers, do some rehab, feed fish oil, and then put her down when quality of life was too compromised. It was hard to hear, but it was what I needed to let go of feeling guilty for not being able to 'fix' her. It sucks, but its reality. She may have some obscure disease that explains everything, but neither of the vets we saw could think of anything. And even if she does, what are the chances it is curable/managable, or the chances that I will be able to afford the treatment.

[Blackdawgs]

Hip dysplasia does not cause dogs to run fevers. The hip dysplasia may be incidental which means that the dog is being treated for the wrong thing assuming that the primary problem is treatable.

 

Have you tried treating with a broad spectrum antibiotic?

 

What does the breeder say about all of this?

[rwinner]

She doesn't consistently run a fever, the last known one was at the vets probably about two months ago. When she was in again a month ago, no fever. I check her fairly frequently just to monitor and try to give the vet some more info. It seems to be random, infrequent, and low grade. It just goes away on its own. She was treated with antibiotics once for the rash and fever, but they did nothing. Vet was confused. Shes also been on prednisone when they though pano, again it did nothing. She isn't currently running a fever, its just been a weird thing shes had occasionally as a puppy (maybe 4-5 times max?) that no one has been able to explain (as well as her tummy troubles, rash, food sensitivity...) There probably is something lurking there but no one can figure it out. The hip seems to be the thing causing quality of life issues as far as I can tell. And its always the same hip that causes her the most trouble, not a shifting pain like you see with a lot of other diseases causing joint pain.

 

Breeder has lost his farm, and I haven't been in contact since. I have met a few of the siblings by happenstance, and they are all healthy, and MUCH more energetic and normal seeming than hazel.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

Sounds awful. I may have missed it but has your vet checked for tick borne diseases? Lyme?

 

Donald

[rwinner]

no lyme disease, unfortunately. Strange when you are hoping your dog has a disease. Like many of you, I have dealt with chronic illness. For me, its not even pain or obnoxious drug side effects that get to me. Its the not knowing. Its going to doctor after doctor who says "well theres something wrong with you for sure, but we dont know what it is. Go home, come back if it gets worse"... I feel like this with hazel. It would almost be better for her to get a fatal diagnosis than just no know whats going on with her. At least with a diagnosis you know what to expect and can make informed decision. In the meantime I feel like I'm just taking stabs in the dark, doing what I can for her and hoping something works, and hoping above all to not put her down unnecessarily or let her suffer unnecessarily.

[D'Elle]

So sorry that you are going through all of this. Your decision to let her go at some point in the near future and start with a new service dog in training is a sound one, to my way of thinking. As hard as it often is, a new dog is truly the best medicine for the pain of losing a dog you love, and in your case that is coupled with your genuine need for a service dog. That doesn't make what you have to do easy.

My heart goes out to you.

[urge to herd]

Mojo for you and Hazel from me. Whatever you need from this Board in support, we are to give.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[Maralynn]

Are you near Ohio State at all? I'd be going to a teaching hospital with all of her records if I was going to pursue another opinion. All those symptoms together just seem odd. As well as the fact that a good dose of pain medication doesn't make a significant difference for her. Not that that couldn't be it, but the combination just seems a bit off.

[Liz P]

How high is her temperature when she is running a fever?

 

I would be consulting with an internal medicine specialist.

[Luana]

Are you near Ohio State at all? I'd be going to a teaching hospital with all of her records if I was going to pursue another opinion. All those symptoms together just seem odd. As well as the fact that a good dose of pain medication doesn't make a significant difference for her. Not that that couldn't be it, but the combination just seems a bit off.

I was about to suggest the same thing: the veterinary medical center at Ohio State University.

also a colleague of mine some time ago was very successful with using a fundraising and she got considerable help with the medical cost when her dog suffered from cancer.