Goat feed ok for sheep?

[fpbear]

i just went to the feed store and asked for feed that is suitable for sheep, because I want to supplement their forage which is getting low. They recommended goat feed and said that their customers use this all the time for sheep. The store owner sounded like an expert. So I purchased a bag and I look on the label and it says it contains copper sulfate. Copper is toxic to sheep. I wonder why is the store telling me it is ok? Is this just in a tiny harmless amount or did they say something misleading?

[juliepoudrier]

Excess copper is toxic over time, so if you were to feed one bag you probably wouldn't hurt your sheep. But I wouldn't feed them exclusively goat feed or any other feed not recommended for sheep. I'm surprised they would tell you it was okay without warning you that toxicity will occur over time....

 

J.

[fpbear]

thanks Julie, so I could still use this bag and I don't need to throw it away? The feed stores in my area are focusing on horses and dogs and they don't know much about sheep. Next time what kind of grain should I ask for? (they probably won't have sheep grain, just general types like corn or general-purpose for other animals)

[hsnrs]

Is the Walmart feed OK for sheep?

[juliepoudrier]

I sometimes use a general-purpose "All Stock" from Tractor Supply (when I can't get my regular feed), but I believe it doesn't have any added copper and the feed label actually says that animals that require higher levels of copper should have that need met through other means (but I'd actually have to go look at the label to verify that).

 

If in doubt, I'd just feed whole corn and be done with it. It should be cheaper than most specialized feeds.

 

Narita,

I have no idea what the WalMart feed contains. You ought to be able to find what is considered acceptable copper levels to feed sheep (they do need some copper, just not as much as other species) and then you can check the feed label and see if the copper levels fall within the acceptable range for sheep. If you have an agricultural extension agent, they can help you figure it out.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Feed okay for sheep should say so - and if it isn't, it usually says do not feed to sheep or animals sensitive to copper. That isn't true for species specific feeds though, so you probably won't find that on the label of your goat feed.

 

I'll sometimes use goat feed (very rarely) if I can't get good feed at the protein level I need, in an emergency. No more than a little bit per head (that's an arbitrary guideline) and never for anything but slaughter stock.

 

Too much copper undermines their ability to tolerate heat and parasites long before they actually die of copper flooding (when the liver catastrophically releases stored copper due to stress). We in the south need to give our sheep every edge they can get against those issues! So I don't take any chances.

 

Remember that the same applies to goat mineral. It's okay to feed sheep mineral to goats, but not the other way around. Goats on sheep feed and mineral will need a wee shot of copper every so often if it's lacking in the soil/forage, easily accomplished by separating and feeding a supplement every so often.

[Bill Fosher]

Goats on sheep feed and mineral will need a wee shot of copper every so often if it's lacking in the soil/forage, easily accomplished by separating and feeding a supplement every so often.

 

This got me thinking goats ... copper ... shot -- isn't there some copper in bullets?

[NCStarkey]

This got me thinking goats ... copper ... shot -- isn't there some copper in bullets?

 

Too funny, Bill! You and I must share the same opinion of goats!

 

Regards,

nancy

[1sheepdoggal]

Me three! Goats UGH.

[Bill Fosher]

To address this issue seriously for a moment, I have to say that for my circumstances nearly all formulated, off-the-shelf "complete" pellets are not a smart buy.

 

There may be some circumstances where a protein boost is needed, but that's fairly rare in sheep with access to green pasture or decent quality hay. When you buy a concentrated feed, you are generally looking to compensate for a lack of energy in the diet, and pellets are a very poor source of energy. So poor, in fact, that most manufacturers won't even tell you what the energy level of their pellets are. Most are not much better than good hay as a source of energy.

 

Here in New England we have a very popular pellet called "Shepherd 16" made by Blue Seal. Blue Seal is owned by Kent, which I believe also makes feed for Tractor Supply and perhaps a couple of other chains. About 15 years ago, I was using this pellet to supplement my winter ration for my ewes, and I noticed that I was still getting some low-grade cases of toxemia in my Finnsheep ewes when they had litters of four and five. These were 125-pound ewes, getting two pounds of pellets per day. When I consulted the nutritionist from Blue Seal she recommended increasing the pellets to five pounds per day. At this point, there would be precious little capacity left in these ewes for anything other than the pellet. I asked what the energy level in the pellet was, and got a series of evasive answers. Energy is not one of the nutrients that has to be listed on the tag, you see, and so it's not one of the factors that they necessarily guarantee when they are making up the least cost mix for each pellet run. More on that later.

 

Turns out that at that point, the TDN, or energy, of Shepherd 16 was 67 percent. As the title of the pellet implies, it's 16 percent protein. I had hay that was 18 percent protein and 68 percent TDN. So my hay was a better source of nutrition for my sheep than the pellets, and by feeding them relatively high levels of pellets I was preventing them from taking in the more nutritious hay. If I had followed the nutritionist's recommendation, the energy balance in the high producing ewes would have actually declined, not improved.

 

I mentioned earlier "least-cost rationing?" That's what grain companies do to make up the pellet. The ingredients on the tag give them a great deal of latitude about what actual material to use. You'll also see that the one of the high ingredients in most sheep or stock pellets is something called "dried bakery product." This is, simply put, stale bread. Or perhaps Twinkies. Whatever was cheapest. Same with "grain byproducts." These are the dreaded grain fragments that we have been warned against feeding to our dogs or eating ourselves: rice or wheat bran, corn gluten meal, etc. Protein specs are met via soybean meal or cottonseed meal, again depending on what's cheapest, and mineral specs are met via supplementation. The whole mess is mixed and ground, extruded and bagged. No two batches are exactly the same -- or at least you're not guaranteed that they will be.

 

When I first started lambing a large group of sheep in a barn, we used a custom pellet primarily for convenience. But I quit when I saw what happened every time we got a new load. It took the sheep two to three days to start eating it again. A percentage would get sick from not eating enough, and a percentage of the piggy ones would get sick from eating the rations of the more cautious sheep.

 

So what's the answer? Whole grains, in my opinion. For me, that means whole shelled corn. TDN is usually about 90 percent, which means that you don't need to feed as much of it as you do a pellet, and it's usually a lot less expensive than a pellet as well. Score on both counts. Plus, if you look around, you might be able to buy whole shelled corn directly from a farmer rather than from a feed store. You'll probably get a lower price, and the farmer will probably get more than he would have if he sold the grain to a broker who sold it to a mill who sold it to the feed store. Again, score on both counts.

 

In some parts of the country you'll have access to other grains, such as oats, barley, wheat, and the like. Any of these can be used as a source of energy for sheep, and will usually be less expensive than pellets.

[bcnewe2]

I used to use an all stock mix when I couldn't get anything else. It was not pelleted and had good TDN and had no added copper. But it never put much wieght on my sheep, which was probably a good thing. I fed it when I had ewes that were so big with lambs they couldn't get enough hay in them in what was left of their stomach space. But as I learned to manage my sheep better I didn't have that problem anymore.

 

Down in AR I noticed I could get good lamb grower mix (no pellets for us) that was higher in protien and other good stuff and almost 2 bucks cheaper than whole corn. Go figure.....

 

Kristen

[TAC2]

Don't feed goat chow/feed to sheep. I don't like to use the "All stock" either. I have used the DuMor Sheep pellets (another TSC product) but we also add whole corn, black oil sunflower seed, crimped oats, shredded beet pulp (good fiber source) and alfalfa cubes (broken up a bit to avoid choke) I feel that this will supply anything I may be missing with feeding whole grains alone. You can also add alfalfa pellets, but they are harder to find and our sheep at least prefer the cubes. If you have Southern States stores in your area, there is also a product called Grass Forage or Alfalfa Forage in 3 cu yd bags that are okay to mix into feeds too. We add all these things in varying proportions depending on the needs of the sheep. We monitor body condition as well as how the sheep are acting. If everyone is solid without being squishy/fat (getting down to the loin portions of the spine through all the fleece can be tricky bouncing around when it's cooler and contentedly chewing cud during the lazy afternoon, then everyone is getting the right feed. A nice sheep mineral mix is also a necessity along with plenty of fresh water. We allow free choice so they get what they need.

 

This diet is also fed when natural (grass) forage starts to die back in autumn and winter, during drought conditions, and for ewes in need of extra nutrition in the last few weeks of pregnancy and for lactation.

 

Some folks have custom blended feeds, test their hay, etc. and make a real science out of feeding their stock. Great if you have a mill nearby and you can buy/store in BULK (as in a ton or several.)

 

ETA: Some feed stores are better about training their staff than others. TSC is generally pretty good at hiring/training, but the best is the local Mom & Pop feed stores where the old time farmers go.

[hsnrs]

Personally I wouldn't feed pellets to sheep. Mine choked on them and so did a neighbor's sheep. The cubes would be good. N

[juliepoudrier]

Wow, if I fed the way some of you do, I'd go broke just trying to feed my sheep.

 

J.

[TAC2]

Wow, if I fed the way some of you do, I'd go broke just trying to feed my sheep.

 

J.

 

Not really. Dog food and hay cost me MUCH more! The combination of all the whole grains/feeds mentioned above lasts about 6 months to feed three sheep, three goats, 30 odd chickens and 6 ducks. For sheep and goats, grains are fed mostly in late pregnancy and early lactation until the pastures are green again (April) when we start to taper off to weaning. Black Oil sunflower is usually on sale around this time of year. We get two 50# bags for $5.99-$7.49 each, one for the cardinals and other wild birds, one for the sheep/goats/chickens. If you grow your own and press for oil, the pressings can also be eaten by the stock and is just as good. A little sunflower goes a long way, adding extra fat/calories to the diet for weight and milk production. Cubed alfalfa is around $12.00 per bag and again broken up and mixed in we'll use 1, maybe 2 bags all winter. Whole corn is $9.49 for 50# - we get around 4 bags of this for all the stock listed above for 6 months. Crimped oats, $10 for 50#, one bag also fed to all stock above; shredded beat pulp $11.99 for 50#, one bag just for goats/sheep and sheep pellets $12.99 - $13.29 50# - 2 bags. I don't feed in any set amounts, just "eyeball" it and watch the animals for condition, adding more or less of each item as needed. Minerals free choice. Works for us.

 

~ Tru

Laingcroft

[stockdogranch]

Wow, if I fed the way some of you do, I'd go broke just trying to feed my sheep.

 

Me, too! Course, I'm feeding way more than 3 sheep--I'm feeding 50-75 most years (along with a handful of calves and one old-style, built like a tank quarter horse). Mine are basically on the "deal with what's here or die" program. When we get our rainy season in winter (soon, I hope!), I get 4-5 months (6 if it's a really wet year, with rains coming early) of grazing on whatever chooses to grow in my pasture. That happens to be a lot of filaree (yippee!), and then, toward the end of my grazing season, the grass between the filaree all heads out in foxtails, which no one eats. Then we switch to whatever load of hay I bought for the year--generally alfalfa "cow hay," not the really fancy stuff the horse folks around here feed (although my horse eats it, too). I supplement that with a bit of annual rye planted in the 125' X 225' enclosure the sheep are in at night, which gives them a bit of green through the summer. My sheep are always really fat and healthy and lamb well, although by the time they lamb, I'm usually well into the grazing program. Maybe SoCal isn't so bad, afterall.

 

A

[TAC2]

 

All grass is great when you've got it. I admit I baby my guys, but then they are "wimpy" woolies (BFL and Corriedale right now, adding Coopworth too) not tough Hill Sheep, Icelandic/Churro types or Hair sheep.

 

We also have small acreage and portions of that are for other uses (orchard, veggies, house) which is why we need a dog to help rotate stock through unfenced bonus areas like the orchard. Goats pretty much stay in the wooded areas and browse. Only two pastures with all grass, which is why our stocking rate is really low right now...we are growing out grass in two more pastures that goats cleared over the past 6 years.

 

Goats are much more feed efficient than our woolies, but I love 'em anyway and we'll stay small.

 

~ Tru

Laingcroft

[Bill Fosher]

The bluefaced Leicester is generally considered a pretty tender breed, but Corriedales should not be, and the Coopworths should be tough as nails. I used to run a flock of 750 ewes that was based on a 50 percent Coopworth mix. The foundation ewes came from a farm on an island in Lake Ontario where the 1100 ewes lambed on pasture, got little or no concentrated feed, and were wintered on some pretty low-grade first cutting hay. They weaned a 175 percent lamb crop and clipped six to eight pound skirted fleeces. I don't know where you're located, but buying all that forage at a chain feed store seems like a surefire road to bankruptcy if you start to expand the flock at all.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the Coopworth and BFL stock in the US has been taken over by the fiber fancy, which will often do anything to keep an otherwise useless sheep alive if they like the fleece. The bluehead is one of the pillars of the sheep industry in the UK, but there are very few here in the US that are worth the time of day to a commercial producer. The commercially important traits -- length of loin, prolificacy and milkiness, and feed efficiency of first cross daughters -- have been lost here for the most part as people look for luster in the fleece.

 

Any sheep should out-perform a goat in terms of feed efficiency. If your goats are actually better at turning dry matter into flesh, milk, and fiber than your sheep, there's something seriously wrong with your sheep.

 

Rant off.

[TAC2]

Bill:

 

I'm actually one of the fiber fancy folks, so I guess that would explain it Primary revenues from fleece and fleece products at this point.

 

This is our first year with the sheep with most of my experience (only 6 years) in goats, so I'm still learning; and there's lots to learn. Most of our pasture has been wooded and cutover, so goats had much more green forage to eat than the sheep do - hence my experience with the feed conversion factor. Now we'll be at 50:50 woodland to grass and working toward 25:75. Max comfort level of stocking is approx. 20 sheep for our 10 acres.

 

BTW, our former feed recyclers were horses, now there is a real bankruptcy hobby .

 

~ Tru

Laingcroft

 

P.S. we're in Virginia.

[juliepoudrier]

Most of our pasture has been wooded and cutover, so goats had much more green forage to eat than the sheep do - hence my experience with the feed conversion factor.

Huh, last year during the worst of the drought, my sheep managed to clear out the wooded part of their pasture--good bye green briars, poison ivy, and anything else green and edible. I think the only thing they didn't eat was the pokeberry.

 

You may find that feeding even 20 sheep can get expensive. I keep between 50 and 60, and last year I was spending roughly $300/month just on grain. Thanks to the drought, hay was nearly $50/roll, and the flock went through at least a roll a week, plus whatever hay I was feeding to the sheep not in with the main flock--rams, etc. (To make things worse I think all the importation of coastal bermuda helped fire ants to gain a foothold here, yuck!) Of course that was partly because of the exceptional drought conditions here, but frankly I've decided that my sheep need to be able to thrive on pasture, decent hay (hopefully not year round), and the occasional grain (corn mainly) at times when it makes sense to feed it. If they can't remain thrifty on that, then they don't need to be in the flock.

 

J.

[TAC2]

$300/month just on grain.

 

Thanks for letting me know the sheep will eat leaves too...didn't know that. I knew they eat grass and weeds, but didn't know they will also knock down saplings like the goats. GREAT news!

 

~ Tru

[juliepoudrier]

Tru,

I don't know that all sheep will eat leaves, etc., but mine will. Of course the sheep I have here are probably considered more of the primitive or hill breed type and so may be better adapted to eating more than just grass.

 

J.

[TAC2]

Well I'm going to try them on the wooded pasture in the spring (leaves are falling off now) anyway. If it works it will get us even closer to our cleared pasture goals AND save on workload - cleaning/filling multiple stock tanks, cleaning multiple shelters, juggling LGD, etc. Currently goats in one pasture (wooded), sheep in another (subdivided grassy) and ram in the boy's pen aka the Rams Head Inn.

 

Thanks again for the tip!

 

~ Tru

[Bill Fosher]

My experience with sheep is also that they will do just fine on brush. I think, in fact, that they are better at bramble and hardwood brush control than most goats. Despite their reputation, goats can be very selective grazers and browsers. Sheep tend to eat what's in front of them.

 

Two sheep to the acre is an incredibly low stocking rate. Most improved pasture in your neck of the woods should carry five to eight ewes plus their lambs. Even dialing that back by 50 percent to allow for the fact that you're in reclamation makes me wonder if the reason that you need to feed so much is that your pasture is under-grazed, which is probably worse for reclaimed ground than overgrazing.

[TAC2]

MOVING THIS TO NEW TOPIC ---- "FEEDING SHEEP"

 

My experience with sheep is also that they will do just fine on brush. I think, in fact, that they are better at bramble and hardwood brush control than most goats. Despite their reputation, goats can be very selective grazers and browsers. Sheep tend to eat what's in front of them.

 

Two sheep to the acre is an incredibly low stocking rate. Most improved pasture in your neck of the woods should carry five to eight ewes plus their lambs. Even dialing that back by 50 percent to allow for the fact that you're in reclamation makes me wonder if the reason that you need to feed so much is that your pasture is under-grazed, which is probably worse for reclaimed ground than overgrazing.

 

 

Bill:

 

I'm responding here AND moving this to a new topic since it has gone so far afield from OP question.

 

The catch here is "improved pasture." Before we had goats and now sheep, we had horses. While we had them, we had a cycle of drought year followed by heavy rains & mud winter through summer, followed by drought again for two years. By the time we were done, our largest pasture was practically hard baked clay you couldn't drill through with almost no grass. We initially brought in the goats to help clear more land for pasture. Now the horses are gone, goats are down to three and we're just starting small with the sheep to determine what is best suited here (and what I like .) Pasture "reclamation" takes quite a bit of time and money to do, but we're back on track. I promised myself I wouldn't allow things to get so bad again. Sad to say, not every pasture in Virginia is lush and green and many are rocky with minimal soil cover. Lots of red clay here and further east, sandy loam. Best soils are in the along the eastern slopes of the Blue Ridge and Shenandoah Valley and that's where you find the best farmland, which is already in use. Unfortunately, we have to live close to where we work the day jobs and I already commute 1.5 hours each way.

 

BTW, any more advice you care to share on sheep, please do!

 

~ Tru

 

ETA: Right now we use e-net from Premier to subdivide the large pasture and move the sheep as soon as they graze a section down. Is there something better to do to keep things well grazed?

 

Also, we really don't feed so much grain to the sheep & goats. The blend of grains is also for all our chickens and the ducks too. While they do forage for greens and bugs, we also need to feed grains to keep them producing eggs.