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Border Collies and Australian Shepherds- what are the differences?


Gemmy4ever
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:D Hi everyone...I'm just wondering...what's the difference between an Australian Shepherd and a Border Collie? I have an Australian Shepherd right now and I know that Border Collies are cousins with them. I had a Border Collie before but I was very young, and I can't remember the behavior of him. I love my Aussie, but I'm wondering if I'm missing out on the BC. Thanks! I really appreciate the help :rolleyes: !
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To the OP: Are you asking about differences in working styles or trainability or something else connected to work? Or are you just asking as far as general behaviours for a companion animal?

A

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Border Collies and Aussies actually aren't really that closely related. Collies and English Shepherds share much more genetics with Border Collies than Aussies, except in cases where, ahem, the relationship was augmented with some cross breeding way back in the lines.

 

The ideal Aussie is less of a specialist than a Border Collie. They've got more of a "yard dog" makeup to their personality - not only can they be trained to move stock around, but they also naturally seek out other roles for themselves - protection of property, human companionship, alert dog ("Timmy fell in the well!"). That first one is important because one thing that happens first to ill-bred Aussies, is often overprotectiveness - dogs that lack the impulse control and discernment to judge friend from foe.

 

They were originally big flock sheepdogs, but have had so many years of being mostly cattle working dogs, that they have a strong tendency to resort to teeth. A certain springiness has been bred into them also, so that the first thing that strikes me as a difference between the two breeds is the "boing" in an Aussie, versus the quieter intensity of a Border Collie.

 

Aussies aren't really any less "hyper" than Border Collies - I find many of them, more so, actually, a frightening glimpse of where our breed might go if hyperness continues to be accepted as the norm. However, an Aussie that is controlling himself and knows his place in life, looks more like a Normal Dog to the outside observer. The butt wiggle is cute, the crouch and stare of a Border Collie, not so much.

 

A really good Aussie gets behind stock and pads like a lion. Many do have a good bit of eye. Eye is not just the really strong stylish moves of the Kelpie and Border Collie - it's the ability to control stock without cutting off their escape route physically. The Aussie doesn't typically drop his head way down, but a well-trained and well-bred one can work quite far off his stock. Aussies, like many cattle bred dogs, don't feel pressure as strongly as Border Collies - this makes them more comfortable in tight spaces, but it can also make them more difficult to train in the finer arts of stock work - larger outruns, pace.

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Well said, Becca!

 

As an owner of several Aussies in the past, friend to a few in the present, and owner of Border Collies both past and present, I would agree heartily with what Rebecca said.

 

As in any breed, while their are tendancies to certain behaviors and mannerisms, there is a great deal of variety within a breed. However, certain trends can be generalized. I often find Aussies to be "springy", a bit pushy, sometimes bull-headed, superior to the Border Collie in terms of protectiveness, oftentimes rather soft-hearted beneath the bravado, but ready to give their best in getting a job done.

 

After we got the Border Collies, we still brought out old MacLeod when we needed a dog with lots of "push" in closer quarters. A guardian of home and farm with a neighborhood reputation, he was also the dog that mothered the baby calves, sometimes better than their own moms did! My Border Collies would no sooner "fraternize" with livestock of any kind than fly to the moon - they feel stock is for working, not for nuturing.

 

We still have a soft spot in our hearts for Aussies but I, for one, wouldn't choose one again if a Border Collie were an option. My husband still threatens to get another Aussie but I think our young Bute is winning him over to the "black and white" side.

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I saw an Aussie work at a clinic that was frustrated because her sheep would not move so put her paws on their back ends and tried to push them. She rocked back and forth and threw all her weight into them. Strange and funny in an odd sort of way...

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Becca wrote: so that the first thing that strikes me as a difference between the two breeds is the "boing" in an Aussie, versus the quieter intensity of a Border Collie.

I once met an Aussie with its family in the park. The Aussie was BOINGING as high as the top of the baby's stroller! Of course I asked how old it was (thinking it was a young dog because of the BOING), but it was 7 years old!

Barb S

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I had an aussie once, before I went to the Border Collie, I found them to be a lot as Becca described them. But I also saw that they appear to be more of a driving dog, than a true gathering dog. Though this point has been argued and Ive been told that they are bred to do both, and that are they are a gathering dog.. My vote stays the same, that they are not a true gathering dog, that they can be taught to, but that its not as strong and instinct for them as it is for the Border Collie.

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I have no experience working stock whatsoever, so let me just say that first, but this one looks pretty good to me:

 

 

Video by Anne Jespersen. Her Birch Hollow is a working Aussie ranch/breeding operation from what I know; she has a lot of other working videos linked to her account, as well. I also like the dogs Hank and Missy. All her dogs seem very talented, really!

 

**ETA - if anyone more knowledgeable than I would care to comment on the above video, or any of Ms. Jespersen's other videos, I would very much appreciate hearing their opinions. I am eager to learn, as well!

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One thing I noted was that the dog did a lot of looking at the handler- I see that a lot in aussies- in general. I think this is because they are so intuned to their handlers.

 

As endearing as this characteristic appears, I have always been under the impression that that is NOT what you want to see in a good working dog, or at least in a good working Border Collie. I have watched a small number of working Aussies and seen very little glancing at the handler but, as I said, my experience is very limited.

 

The dog that takes its eyes off the stock is not, I believe, more "intuned" to the handler. Absolutely terrific handler/dog teams (like Bev Lambert and Pippa and Bill, Alasdair MacRae and his dogs, Tommy Wilson and Sly, and many others) do just fine without the dog visibly moving its focus from the stock. What's the saying? "The eyes are for the stock and the ears are for the handler."

 

It seems to me that a dog that does a lot of looking towards the handler is either a dog that is lacking confidence in itself ("back me up here, boss") or its handler ("what the heck do you want me to do that for?"), or a dog that is too easily diverted from paying attention to the stock.

 

Just my impression and I could easily be wrong.

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I've worked with quite a few Aussies over the years and they are gathering dogs. The ones I saw that were called "driving only" were either poorly, or deliberately d/t handler preference, trained that way.

 

There are few truly good working Aussies lines left. Most are "hit and run" workers...they do a little chasing, a little grabbing and barking, then check out of contact with the stock. It's frustrating for the stock, and even worse for a trainer that knows to expect more. A stockman walks away from such dogs.

 

Keekers are prominent in a few BC lines as well. Training methods can also make a dog look away from his stock more - and again, handler preference.

 

Luke would be an excellent example of a good working Aussie. He remind me of my old Joey, one of the few Aussies who actually has won a Novice trial at a normal (USBCHA) herding trial. Joey has a touch more eye, which now would be penalized as "non-Aussie" herding behavior. Which is stupid...but that's another political story.

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Most are "hit and run" workers...they do a little chasing, a little grabbing and barking, then check out of contact with the stock. It's frustrating for the stock, and even worse for a trainer that knows to expect more. A stockman walks away from such dogs.

 

That's been my experience as well. I also have met quite a few who are willing to work as long as they can make a game of it: split the sheep so they can then go gather them together again. When pressed to just work seriously, I have met very few who are willing to hang in there,

A

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I appreciate any attempt to understand a breed for the sake of its unique merits. It does not amuse me, however, to see a contrast of a breed done by someone who understands little about the "other" breed.

 

Someone who can say, with a straight face, that the Border Collie was not bred to handle large groups of heavy breed sheep, has neither read about the history of the breed, nor done much examination of the breed in its native land. The three tier system of sheep breeding could not have been developed without such a versatile sheepdog as the Border Collie, able to handle both the light, wily native maternal breeds and the tough, heavy down terminal breeds and lambs - in the same operation. Thousands of them, thank you kindly.

 

*stomping away to cool off*

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Everyone's comments have given me a lot to ponder! Thank you--I really appreciate learning from your collective expertise!! I've been re-watching the Birch Hollow videos (plus some Zamora BC ones) with these thoughts in mind, and it's made a little more sense; I think I'm just starting to grasp the finer points of these differences in working style. Please forgive me if any of my comments are totally ignorant--I find it very intimidating to be posting in the Working Stockdogs section at all!! I just have so many questions, and I hope that I might trespass on everyone's interest in this subject for a little while longer:

 

Anna, I think Mojo did quite a bit of "barking and chasing" before finally "checking out of contact with the stock" that morning, huh? I remember that as soon as I tried to leave the pen, he instantly stopped everything he was doing to try and follow me out, which reprises some of the comments above about preferring to stay with the handler than the stock. Guess that makes him a poorly-bred part-Aussie. :D I wonder what would have happened if I had instead tried to stick near you and the sheep, though (I kept backing away so that I could watch what was going on); you think he might have tried to gather them again? He seemed to show a great deal of interest in the sheep as long as I was close by. Anyway, I know our overall performance wasn't too impressive that day, but I still do wish I lived closer to you so that we could try Mojo again/more regularly.

 

So, here's my next set of questions! I have been reading the thread on slow-maturing dogs with great interest, as I have been wondering about this regarding Mojo since his instinct test: just supposing one had a maybe-Aussie-maybe-not-mixed-herding-breed rescue dog, of adult age (Mojo is about 5); would he deserve multiple chances on stock to see if he ever "turned on"? After all, it is more than likely that the time I took Mojo to Anna's was the first time he ever saw stock in his life; should he have been expected to "turn on" properly right away, if he ever was going to turn on, or is it a lost cause from the beginning if they have not been continually exposed to stock as youngsters? I've seen videos of young dogs seeing stock for the first time, and at least to my inexperienced eyes, Mojo's barking/chasing/confusion was not all that different of a reaction. Thus, if you had the leisure to do so (i.e., if you did not need a serious working/trial dog), when would you give up with an adult rescue mix, or would you never even bother to try him on stock?

 

Anyway, I guess the reason why I intermittently wonder about Mojo is because he keeps performing various behaviors at home that are very odd, if he were not actually part-herding breed. For example (and it is really taking all my courage to relate the following anecdote here): I accidentally taught Mojo to "fetch" Godiva. Sometimes, she's sleeping so deeply that she can't hear me calling her after I've left the room with Mojo, and thus won't come; so, one day, instead of walking all the way back to wake her up, I told Mojo, "Would you just go get 'er?" Obviously, I really didn't expect him to do anything, but lo and behold, he looked at me with a somewhat surprised expression, turned to look at Godiva (about thirty feet away), and then--seriously--did a tiny "outrun" down the side of the room with his head lowered to the level of his shoulders, came up straight behind her, and then barked until she sleepily got up. He then escorted her (staying behind her) to where I was, eyeing her all the way--barking if she paused for a moment, but being quiet if she kept moving along.

 

The first time he did it, I stood there rather stupefied, since I had never even begun to teach him to do any of that, so it is hard to imagine how he would have otherwise known to "go get 'er"--and yet, he did it. After that, he now can actually be relied upon to "go get 'er" when I ask, like, e.g., when it's raining, and Godiva's taking too long to do her business in the yard, I can send him from where I am standing at the front door of the house, at least thirty yards down the hill to the front yard, and he will bring Godiva back up to me. He seems extremely proud of himself when he does this for me, which I guess is the only reason I encourage him to do it every now and then (and poor old patient Godiva has no idea what's going on, and happily waddles along--I certainly wouldn't keep doing this if it bothered her). **I know**--if it's not on stock, it's not actually herding, but I guess I still feel like somewhere buried inside of him, there must be a stockdog in there somewhere, or he wouldn't be capable of any of this...would he? Even if he IS mostly a Southern California Surf Spaniel? :rolleyes: I would truly appreciate any additional thoughts on this...thank you very much in advance!

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Even if he IS mostly a Southern California Surf Spaniel?

 

I just love this! Now we know just what my daughter's salt-water-fanatic dog is - he's an Outer Banks Surf Spaniel. Rescued from Tennessee. I guess that's what fooled us, as he entered Border Collie rescue no where near a beach.

 

Not really sorry about digressing...

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Sue

Just wanted to mention, that I neither think it is good, nor do I want a dog looking up at me when working sheep, but I see this being done by Aussies. Also, this conversation cannot go on without the mention of the infusion of the BC into certain Aussie lines, which I believe are the dogs you see that work so well (good balance, eye, style). I have heard that they are pure Aussies, it is just that the dogs were selectively bred for those traits, but for instance, eye- did the early Aussie have eye?

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Julie - I don't know.

 

What I do know in terms of Aussie breeding (for example) is that a very successful Aussie breeder/trainer/trialist back some years ago had such successful dogs that folks accused him of cross-breeding with Border Collies. I think that was just sour grapes as I know the man, know that he has been very successful in breeding quality working dogs of several breeds (he breeds with care and culls hard), and don't believe him capable of deceit.

 

My main experience has been with my several working Aussies and with Aussies at some clinics and lessons. Some tend to look back at the handler and some don't, but you are right that it may be a more prevalent habit in Aussies than in Border Collies. But is that the breeding? I would think that has a lot to do with it. I wonder how much is the handling/training?

 

Some Border Collies seem to have an interesting way of looking at the handler (and maybe this is the way a "keeker" does it) - it is a slow, almost "sneaky" look back with a very distinctive "slow motion" aspect to it (like the dog expects a command and isn't getting it, and wants to know "what next, boss?", versus the dog that just plain looks back at the handler with a "huh?" or "you have to be kidding me?" sort of manner.

 

My friend has a working-bred Aussie that has fabulous balance and keeps his eyes on the stock but I agree that I have seen some others that are less focussed, maybe?

 

Mind you, this is all from a very limited perspective on my part.

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