aggression

[Buba]

Last Sunday I took possession of a 2 year old male border collie. The owners told me previously that the dog had bitten the neighbours child because the child was tormenting the dog. I thought that it wouldn't be a problem because there are no children in my home and I also didn't like to see the dog destroyed. When they arrived at my house with the dog, I found out that the dog had bitten a child on three occasions. After 20 minutes in my home the dog growled and showed his teeth at me. I can feed him and play with him but everytime I pet him he does the same thing. Have I just become the owner of a problem dog???

[Kitch]

How were you petting him? On the head? That is a very dominant thing to do and might very well have freaked out an insecure dog. (And 20 minutes is not long enough for a dog to feel secure in its new environment - that can take weeks or months, depending on the dog and its past experiences.)

 

Can you give us some more info on the dog? Was he kept in the house or was he tied up in the yard? Were the bites bad? (Did they break the skin? Just cause bruising? Just teeth on skin without marks?) There is a wide range of what people consider bites and more info may help with how to help this dog.

 

There are people on this board that are much more experienced in this area than I am - hopefully some of them will chime in.

 

Thank you for caring enough for this dog to give it a second shot.

 

Oh, and Welcome to the Boards!

[Miztiki]

Kerry is right. We really need more info (alot more) to be able to give you our best guess. Info on the dog, on your level of experience, etc.

 

This might be a simple thing and it might be quite complex and dangerous. You can ask us but you can also contact a behaviorist for their professional opinion. Whatever you do, be careful, give the dog time, don't push him, don't try to physically dominate him, start NILIF, etc.

 

Hope to hear back from you!

[Buba]

Thank you everyone for your responses to my possible problem. The dog (Buba) was bought from a breeder as a pup. As far as I can tell he's been spoiled. Sleeps on the couch, lots of toys, good food and had another dog to play with. Mostly he was left inside especially in the Winter and also had a fenced yard. The last time he bit a child he jumped the fence (snow was deep) to do it. I don't know how bad the bites were but, the father of the child insisted that the dog be destroyed. In fact, he thinks that Buba has been put down and not taken somewhere else. I've had him a week now and he growled and beared his teeth at me last night. I believe he does react this way when I touch his head. I really don't pet him much at all because I'm afraid he'll bite me. I am fairly well experienced with dogs, I had 3 German Shepherds and a Red Bone Hound all at one time. My female shepherd was 13 years old when I put her to sleep last Fall. She was the best. No dog will ever take her place in my mind but, who knows?

I realize that a Border Collie is a working dog and maybe I should try to find him a farm to live on where he can be happy doing his job. I work 5-6 days a week so he'll be alone alot. Does anyone know of someone with a farm?. Thanks everybody.

Karen in central Ontario

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Buba:

As far as I can tell he's been spoiled. Sleeps on the couch, lots of toys, good food and had another dog to play with. Mostly he was left inside especially in the Winter and also had a fenced yard.

Well, you just described my dogs'lives which I suppose is cushy but doesn't mean they're spoiled. Certainly no one is biting anyone else. Just ask Quinn how his (in his mind hilarious) little play nips went over with me. Spoiled has to do with the dog not learning limits and being taught appropriate behavior.

 

I don't know how well you know the previous owner, but if he could give you an honest (not glossed over) description of how bad the bite was, that is extremely important information to have as far as what you are dealing with here. An aggressive or fear-aggressive dog without bite inhibition needs to be handled very, very carefully. If you plan on keeping this dog, please find a professional trainer to help you. This is not a possible problem. This is a real one. The question is how bad of a problem is it?

 

I realize that a Border Collie is a working dog and maybe I should try to find him a farm to live on where he can be happy doing his job. I work 5-6 days a week so he'll be alone alot.

 

A lot of Border Collies are fine not living on a farm if they are given enough exercise and mental stimulation. I would not turn him over to another person right now because of the aggression. A dangerous dog isn't going to be much help to a farmer. And this dog may not have much in the way of working ability to even offset needing to address the aggression.

 

This dog might be salvageable. You'd need to get an expert's opinion (which I am not even if I could see the dog). In the meantime, he's like a loaded gun. Please get someone in to help you.

[Black Watch Debatable]

Buba wrote:

Have I just become the owner of a problem dog???

Do you have homeowner's insurance?

Insurance companies won't issue a policy if a dog has ever bitten someone even if it's not listed as a vicious or dangerous dog.

 

And if the dog bites anyone after the policy is issued, it would not be renewed.

You could lose your coverage---and if these bites hadn't been hushed up, in some parts of the country you'd be listed on the internet. You could wind up in a lawsuit. A dog that bites people is a big, big problem.

 

The people who unloaded this dog on you should be hit over the head with a board for their dishonesty: they placed you in an awful position. They've saddled you with an insurance risk; they lied about the dog to one victim's father, and to you; and they've put you in the difficult spot of choosing between euthanizing the dog and spending a great deal of time (and perhaps money) in an effort to make him safer to live with. Worst of all, they have knowingly put you and others at risk of injury.

 

If you are a saint, a masochist, an adrenaline junkie or a combination of the three, by all means keep this dog and invest the time (and money) necessary to make him less dangerous. He will be your responsibility for many years. (While you are looking after him, I have to add, a wonderful, temperamentally sound border collie [or two!] in rescue will be denied a home.) Obviously the dog cannot be returned to the people who gave him to you. You might try to track down the breeders and see whether they would take him back. You can try to find a rescue organization that will take him, or you can take him to your local shelter and give them an honest account of his behavior. Or you can do what the people who owned the dog promised the child's father that they would do: take the dog to a vet to be humanely euthanized.

 

Temperamentally sound dogs don't respond to the stress of rehoming by threatening/endangering the people around them. You are afraid the dog will bite you, and you have reason to worry---he's bitten three people already.

 

Shetlander wrote:

An aggressive or fear-aggressive dog without bite inhibition needs to be handled very, very carefully. If you plan on keeping this dog, please find a professional trainer to help you. This is not a possible problem. This is a real one.

Good luck---you have my sympathy.

[kajarrel]

I realize that a Border Collie is a working dog and maybe I should try to find him a farm to live on where he can be happy doing his job.

Karen,

It's extremely unlikely this has anything to do with the dog not being on a farm. A farmer would have to do the same things with the dog that you'll have to do (to deal with the aggression).

 

The growling and biting MAY be something that will resolve (one of the rescues I adopted did this and no longer does, even though both my husband and I work full time), but you'll need to commit to dealing with it (including, at least initially, preventing further incidents from happening). Have you had the dog checked out for physical causes (e.g., ear ache, etc.)?

 

Kim

[Barb Scott]

Luisa's post hits the nail on the head. I wrote a similar post and then deleted it because I was afraid of starting up a controversy.

Barb S

[kajarrel]

While you are looking after him, I have to add, a wonderful, temperamentally sound border collie [or two!]in rescue will be denied a home.

Luisa,

While agree with much of your post, I don't think Buba should feel responsible for saving the other dogs in rescue. If she/he wants to work with THIS dog, that is his/her perogative.

 

Kim

[Black Watch Debatable]

Kim, you're right---I jumped to the conclusion [quite a big jump, yay me] that the OP had been looking specifically for a border collie to adopt. It sounds as if she may not have been looking for a dog at all.

[Buba]

Thanks again everyone for your expert insight. Buba, the Border Collie is doing very well this week. Last weekend I have him the ultimate test and took him to a garage party. I almost left him at home but, then I thought - no, lets get er done. When we arrived Buba was so excited, all the people and music playing. He was running around like a crazy thing and he did 'grab' the sleeve of my friends coat. She was ok with it. She understood that he's young, excited and not accustomed to noisy places and strangers. Bubba became very protective of myself and my boyfriend, running back and forth between us. By the end of the evening though, Bubba had settled right down. I was very pleased with him, he did very well, I think. Since the party he has not shown any aggression toward me. I hope that my past experience with German Shepherds will make me knowledgable enough to prevent anymore aggressive confrontations with people/children. I certainly don't want to get mixed up in any lawsuit. Thank you Luisa for your insight on that subject. I think I 'will' find out how bad the bites were from the previous owner and decide what action to take from there. Consulting a professional sounds like a good idea.

Karen & Bubba

[MaggieDog]

I just have to ask: What the HECK were you thinking to take a dog who has bitten, has growled at you for touching him, and who you've only had for a short time, to a party?! You took a HUGE risk and are *extremely* lucky that nothing happened. It doesn't even sound like you had Buba on a leash?!

 

As the owner of a reactive dog, I won't take this risk, and my girl is almost 7 yo, has been with me for almost 6 years, has been in training for those 6 years and has never made actual tooth contact with a person; she even has titles in agility, therapy, and her CGC (Canine Good Citizen), but I know her limits and my responsibility to protect and prevent her from any harm.

 

Ok, rant over. I don't want you to think that I said the above because I'm trying to insult or anything as that's not the case; I am solely interested in pointing out what *could've* happened had things not gone as planned for you and anyone else w/ a reactive animal - you need to remember that this dog is still an unknown right now; taking risks like you did could very well get someone bitten and you sued and that would not be good for anyone involved!

 

The people here have great advice, and we all love helping out newbies, but we hate to see dogs and humans put at risk. Ask questions, listen, and you will learn a ton!

[SoloRiver]

Kim, you're right---I jumped to the conclusion [quite a big jump, yay me] that the OP had been looking specifically for a border collie to adopt. It sounds as if she may not have been looking for a dog at all.

 

Either way, it makes no difference. Everyone has the right to work with a dog they love and want to keep. No one else has the right to tell me which dog I should have in my home and what behavioral traits he should have to be allowed to be there.

 

People have leveled this accusation at me so many times it makes my head spin. "Why keep a dog like Solo when there are so many GOOD dogs out there who need homes?" This question is cruel, pointless, and hopelessly misguided. Solo is not worth less than another dog because he is not perfect. Solo is worth more to me than everyone else's dogs put together. Solo is my heart. If all of our dogs were in a burning building and I could only save one, I don't care how wonderful and perfect your dogs are. I'm saving Solo, and whoever has a problem with that can shove it.

 

Sometime in the future -- after Solo -- I am perfectly willing to take in another like him. I have learned what dogs like this can give me and seen what they can teach me. Once you have loved an imperfect dog you know that you can and will love another.

 

To the original poster, I highly highly recommend that you consult with a veterinary behaviorist to deal with these problems. You may be able to get a referral from your vet, from the nearest vet school, or find one here:

 

http://www.dacvb.org/Typo3/DACVBHome/index.php

 

I cannot give specific advice as (a) I am not a behaviorist and ( my own reactive dog has never been aggressive toward me. If I were you I would avoid situations that may be difficult for your dog and get professional help pronto.

 

Good luck.

[Barb Scott]

Either way, it makes no difference. Everyone has the right to work with a dog they love and want to keep. No one else has the right to tell me which dog I should have in my home and what behavioral traits he should have to be allowed to be there.

 

People have leveled this accusation at me so many times it makes my head spin. "Why keep a dog like Solo when there are so many GOOD dogs out there who need homes?" This question is cruel, pointless, and hopelessly misguided.

 

But, the original poster was asking what to do with an aggressive dog that they had just gotten! I, too, have a very reactive BC that we've had since she was 8 weeks old. We keep her out of trouble and give her lots of attention at home or in dog free areas (such as the Manistee National Forest); she doesn't go to dog events or parties with us! She also has never growled at or bitten me! The original poster was asking for advice and I said what I still think is true. If (for any reason), I could not keep Dart, I'd have her put down before putting her problems on anyone else.

Barb S

[kaos]

Karen

Where in central ontario are you situated? The University of Guelph has a vet college and a veterinary behaviourist on staff, she is excellent and very approachable. You should give her a call Dr Cimmons I believe her name is, (maybe Simmons?) Not every one who calls themselves a "behavourist" actually is, so make sure that you find a board certified veterinary behavourist, also discuss these issues with your vet.

 

Before seeing the behavourist you will want to make sure the dog is not sick or injured in any way, if petting produces growling, it may have hip dysplasia and petting hurts it, tyus the growling and teeth, a slipped disc in teh spine, an injured leg... you get the idea...

 

There are multiple training schools through Ontario, however, most will be completely unequipped to properly deal with true aggression (if that is what is actually going on) and will actually make the problem that much more difficult.

 

You have already comitted one HUGE error with your new dog , that of exposing it to a ridiculously difficult situation that most even tempered dogs are unfit to deal with.

 

If you are concerned about lawsuits, (As you rightfully should be) then you have to make the effort to keep the dog under control at all times.

 

As well if you are keeping it, you need to gain its trust and actually get to know it and its triggers, which means not placing it in situations that you cannot control or predict,

 

If it had caught your friends skin and not her coat, you would be in serious trouble...

 

I am pointing all this out because it will be the dog who will be paying the ultimate price for reacting to a situation it is not comfortable in, if you are keeping the dog then you have to protect it from its own behaviour.

 

I also live in Ontario and would be happy to help you find a training school or provide the number for the behaviourist, just let me know

 

Sara

[yogie]

Hi Buba, hi everyone

 

"Have I just become the owner of a problem dog???"

 

From my experience Buba, you have adopted a problem dog, certainly not because of the dog but because of how it was raised before it was lucky enough to cross paths with you. I adopted a 2 year old B/C that was tied up and neglected in the backyard. I assume that he will always have some problems but he is now a great dog and I would not trade him ever. Time, patience, and strong leadership will put your puppy at ease and I'm sure that when you look back, as I do daily, you'll see how far your dog has advanced compared to how he was. It's a, potentially, extremely rewarding situation for both of you.

Well done and the Best of luck. The effort is worth the reward.

[Black Watch Debatable]

Melanie wrote:

No one else has the right to tell me which dog I should have in my home and what behavioral traits he should have to be allowed to be there.

Trouble is, the law can grant perfect strangers that right, and the dog?s behavioral traits can influence their decisions.

 

Forget unpleasant landlords, unpleasant neighbors and even unpleasant, tactless windbags on the internet. [Yeah, that would probably be me ] Minor irritations, all.

 

But if my Bounce were to injure someone, or chase and kill the neighbor?s cat, or frighten the mail carrier off the porch once or twice, a great many strangers might suddenly have the right to become involved in her life, and mine: animal control officers, perhaps police officers, boards at dangerous dog hearings, attorneys, witnesses, judges. Some of these people would have the right to require me to seek professional help---perhaps not the help of my choosing---in order to keep Bounce from being taken away. They would have the right to require me to keep her muzzled every time we left the house. They would even have the right, if Bounce were found to be sufficiently threatening, to confiscate and euthanize her. And never mind that I?d be willing to run away to Mexico with Bounce before I?d let that happen. According to every law I know, public safety (and sometimes merely the illusion of public safety) trumps my ?right to right to work with a dog love and want to keep.?

 

In a perfect world, even the most dangerous dogs would find skilled and exceptionally dedicated caretakers to love them and help exorcise their demons. But we don?t live in a world of skilled and exceptionally dedicated caretakers---we live in a world where dog bites are the number one cause of facial disfigurement in children [according to Jean Donaldson]. We live in a world where some people fall in love with temperamentally unsound dogs, and then find themselves hostage---for years---to an animal that frightens them and can?t be trusted around others. Anyone who is considering an aggressive or fear-aggressive dog for adoption must be aware of the enormous responsibility involved (both to the community and to the dog), the time and effort involved, the legal pitfalls, and the monetary and emotional costs that may come into play. The rewards can be great, but the risks will always there.

 

 

Of course every dog?s life has intrinsic value:

 

?When a dog dies in an animal shelter, it almost doesn?t matter whether the dog was an old favorite or a hopeless case of a violent animal that never had a chance; the dog was alive one second, and literally gone the next. Everything it ever was and every possibility for what it would have been and done?gone in a second. It?s the actual fact of the real loss and what it means to kill that needs to weigh most and is the reason there should never be a formula that tries to remove the responsibility from a person or dim the reality of what it means to take away a life.?[Pete Miller, a shelter supervisor at Santa Barbara County Animal Services.]

Still, my heart goes out to the shelter dog that doesn?t have health issues or an injury or a litany of abuse to tug at the heartstrings. For more and more would-be adopters (it seems to me), the dog with nothing to offer but a wonderful temperament just isn't "needy enough." (Yep, I?m the same girl who adopted a shy dog with a broken foot this past January. We do what we gotta do )

 

And one last thing in regard to this comment:

Everyone has the right to work with a dog they love and want to keep. No one else has the right to tell me which dog I should have in my home and what behavioral traits he should have to be allowed to be there.

Just that it?s enough to make a pit bull lover weep.

 

How nice it must be, never to have felt the terror of BSL! Cities, states/provinces and even entire countries these days have the right to tell me that I cannot keep a pit bull in my home. I?ve lost track of the number of soulless imbeciles who say, ?Why would you want a pit bull in the first place? Oh, well, you can get always get another kind of dog.? And it doesn?t matter that Bounce, the girl in my avatar, has the happiest, friendliest, most bombproof temperament of any dog that ever lived. Her behavioral traits aren?t important---only her appearance, irony of ironies Talk about ?cruel, pointless, and hopelessly misguided?!

[mado]

Hello Luisa ;

Have you had the chance to see the Argentinian film "Bonbon el perro" ?

I think you would love it ...

[Black Watch Debatable]

 

Aw, I love him

 

Thanks, mado---I'll check it out.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I am reading Pam Dennison bringing light to shadow I think it has some great insights on a dog like this if you intend to keep it but, even she got professional help and admits she made mistakes that led to friends being bit.

 

I wish you good luck