Oh my goodness.

[Shoofly]

I still don't get it. This puppy is from a more or less working breeding - the sire is a working farm dog. The bitch might not be, but it sounds like she's from a working line, and it sounds like these people know a little bit about what they're talking about. How is this breeding any worse than some of the breedings of dogs who've only gone out and "proved" themselves in the most minor of ways, like gotten around a NN course or some such? It's really hypocritical i think, when there are plenty of herding/trial folks who breed to less than proven dogs, both their own and outside dogs. Who gets to decide? Where is the line drawn? These people were breeding for their own pups, for good enough reasons for me (not color, not conformation, not just to have pets).

 

When i was running for the ABCA board, i got a phone call from someone wanting to pick my brain about dogs. This guy was a rough, tough cattle farm guy who only bred when he wanted replacement dogs for himself. You know what he did with the ones that didn't work out? He "brush piled" them - his term, not mine. Yep, he didn't want anyone having his dogs if they weren't good enough for him so he shot them. How's that for a line in the sand? Some people honestly feel this way, that to put BCs in the hands of people who don't need them for real work is going to be the ruin of the breed. Is that how far you want to take these arguments?

[Lunar]

Nancy - IMO, it's not about whether or not this particular breeder is going to continue breeding. It's the general principle of the thing - buying from someone who probably shouldn't have bred their dog rather than rescuing a dog who *really does* need rescuing. Classifying this as a preventative measure against the pup ending up in rescue is hypthetical at best. If this breeder is as caring and responsible as SA says, there is no chance (or at least a severely diminished chance) that this dog will end up in rescue so it's a moot point anyways.

 

Melanie - I don't think its a surprizing that on this particular thread there are a lot of "go for it" posts. I don't think it's so much a reflection on the beliefs of the members of this board, because time and again the majority opinion is to NOT buy from irresponsible breeders (sometimes overly vehemently so). I just think that what SA has been through is so horrible... that we all feel her pain in some ways... and many here just want her to find some way to fill that hole left behind. And because of that, I think a lot of people are willing to overlook what they normally would not.

[Shoofly]

Dixie - Yep, Donald and Dorothy are sweeties. They haven't been around the trial scene in a long time but they were very active around here about 10 years ago when i was getting started. They've been in dogs a long time.

[SoloRiver]

To me a backyard breeder is simply someone who is breeding dogs and shouldn't be, and isn't a puppy mill. My concept of a backyard breeder is someone who is utterly well-meaning about 99.9% of the time, but we all know where the best intentions might lead us.

 

I find all the cries of "fate!" to be both bizarre and ironic. Remember Maybe? The one who looks just like a red version of Pi? Didn't we hear the same cries of "fate! destiny!" then? Is every dog we run across the instrument of destiny? I found Maybe's circumstances to be just as compelling and even more urgent (and not just because he is a homeless rescue dog) and yet we've all forgotten he existed already, somehow. Could it be puppy lust?

 

"Fate" makes for a nice storyline, this is true. And we all like to get caught up in the romance of a story but this is not a story, this is about a person who is real and dogs who are real.

[SoloRiver]

How is this breeding any worse than some of the breedings of dogs who've only gone out and "proved" themselves in the most minor of ways, like gotten around a NN course or some such? It's really hypocritical i think, when there are plenty of herding/trial folks who breed to less than proven dogs, both their own and outside dogs.

 

How is that hypocritical? Who is being a hypocrite here? I haven't seen anyone being one -- no one has said, "But it would be OK if she'd gotten around a NN course."

 

I totally agree that there are plenty of "working" dogs out there who are bred and shouldn't be and I wouldn't advise Sarah to get a puppy from someone like that either. How does other people doing things that are wrong make another wrong less wrong? I'm not into relative wrongness. Color me confused.

 

Some people honestly feel this way, that to put BCs in the hands of people who don't need them for real work is going to be the ruin of the breed. Is that how far you want to take these arguments?

 

Now, this is a straw man. No one has gone anywhere near that extreme, and neither do I. The fact of the matter is that there was no really good reason for breeding these dogs, just like there is no really good reason for breeding a couple of Novice trial dogs, or breeding dogs for flyball. In a world where (a) there were no unwanted Border Collies and ( we were not fighting to preserve the breed as a working breed, I'd be the first person standing up and saying "go for it," because Sarah has been through a lot and I think she really should get another dog. But we don't live in that world, and I can't encourage someone to get a dog from someone who for all sorts of reasons should not have bred these dogs.

 

If I did that, then I WOULD be a hypocrite.

[Root Beer]

Shoofly and Nancy, I think you've both made some excellent points.

 

Who is it that gets to decide which working dogs are worthy of breeding?

 

This puppy is from working lines. Sarah is not looking to breed. The dog exists. The folks who bred her aren't planning to breed anymore.

 

I understand the mission and culture of this board, and I'm definitely in support of preserving the Border Collie to maintain herding ability within the breed. But when a particular working dog is not considered good enough out of hand when really, you don't know anything about the dog, the question of "who gets to decide?" does come to mind.

 

The irony is that if this puppy were given to rescue by the breeder's and Sarah got the exact same dog from the rescue, most of the members of this board would be 100% supportive.

[Willikers]

I'm 100% behind Melanie on this one, yet the thought of what happened to Sarah can still make me cry. I am profoundly sympathetic to her unimaginable loss, but the woman IS a backyard breeder, no matter how responsibly she went about it. The lives of the dogs she brought into this world for selfish reasons (I want a puppy from my incredibly special dog, I want to do it for my autistic son) bottom line TAKE futures away from dogs already in this world. I'm really shocked by the majority of responses.

 

If it wasn't Sincere Artisan asking this, if it was a new member coming on here with the same backstory of losing 3 dogs suddenly, would all these respondants still be saying "It's fate!" and "Go with your heart!" and such? I really don't think so.

[Root Beer]

. . . this is about a person who is real and dogs who are real.

That's true. I think that this real puppy is just as worthy of a good real home as Maybe is.

[Susan M. & Skipper, Annie and Ben]

There?s nothing cuter than a puppy, and if you?ve ever loved a border collie, there truly is no cuter puppy than a border collie pup. They?re all adorable to look at and all tug at our hearts whether they have working parents or not and whether we approve of their breeder or not. What we have to do as lovers of the breed as a whole is to decide whether or not a particular breeder should be supported by our actions. We do this because we love the breed and our individual dogs. We do this because it is the right thing to do to keep the border collie as amazing, intelligent and versatile as it is and to help keep unwanted border collies out of dog pounds and rescues, which are overwhelmed by having so many to place. There are too many border collies being bred for the number of great homes available.

 

Because this board is read by many non-members from all over the world, I think we all need to be aware that what we say and do educates and influences decisions made by people we may not be aware of.

 

I understand how looking at the cute puppy pictures motivates people to say ?get the puppy.? I understand how compassionate people want Sarah to be happy and find a wonderful dog. I want that, too. It makes me sad though, that so many people on this board said to get the puppy essentially because it?s cute.

 

Sarah strikes me as intelligent and compassionate and as such I have high hopes that she will do her homework before making a decision. This is a decision she will have to live with for many years and one she will be called upon to defend from time to time. If she uses her clear mind and heart she will gather information about the breeders and will gather more information about other puppies from other sources and then make a decision, the right decision (whatever that is), and it will be based on more than the cute-factor and convenience.

 

Sarah, I recently bought a puppy. I brought him home at 9 weeks old. He?s now 6 months old. His parents ran open successfully (mom died after a botched spay). Mom was from Jack and Kathy Knox; dad was imported from Wales. My pup is all working background. He is as sweet as can be, not reactive, sociable, currently asleep at my feet as I type. His parent?s didn?t have hip or eye certs but the parents could work and the other litters were all sound. I have had his hips and eyes checked and they are perfect. He is a great little dog who is growing into a wonderful guy. I hope he can work stock as well as his daddy does. If he can?t, he has a forever place with me anyway and we will find out what he can do well. He is so good-natured he could probably be a therapy dog.

 

My other dogs are all rescues. I would rescue again (and will somewhere down the road) in a heartbeat. It?s a wonderful way to get a border collie.

 

When I?m asked about my dogs, I can tell whoever is asking where I got them and why. I have had to defend my decision about the pup to a couple of rescuers as he was not a rescue and the breeder doesn?t have spay/neuter contracts. I wish there was a buyer contract. Still, the dog is as well bred a dog as can be and when I defend my decision to bring him home I do so with confidence. I thought about this decision from the day he was born until I made the commitment to buy him many weeks later. I weighed out the pros/cons, discussed it with my family, my trainer, my friends. I feel good about my choice.

 

If you have doubts about the breeders and you don?t think they contributed to the overall health of the breed, please consider taking a look around at all your options. I have recently seen some great pups on the ground from wonderful, working homes. We also have some wonderful pups in rescue in our area.

 

Good luck and take care.

[Root Beer]

If it wasn't Sincere Artisan asking this, if it was a new member coming on here with the same backstory of losing 3 dogs suddenly, would all these respondants still be saying "It's fate!" and "Go with your heart!" and such? I really don't think so.

That's an interesting point. The fact that Sarah is an established member of this board has led some of us to put more thought into the situation and into our responses to her than we would in the case of a brand new person.

 

I'll definitely keep that in mind when I jump to judge new posters too quickly based on what they say in their initial posts. There is usually more to a story than one knows at first.

 

That's a really good point.

[Shoofly]

"Sarah has been through a lot and I think she really should get another dog. But we don't live in that world, and I can't encourage someone to get a dog from someone who for all sorts of reasons should not have bred these dogs."

 

Sarah said at the beginning of this thread that the bitch's owner and her boyfriend, the owner of the sire, did this breeding so they could have a puppy each - for her for a pet, and for him to join the sire working on his farm. A couple of other pups in the litter are going to working homes. Sounds like a working breeding to me. What's the problem? Or is it just not "working enough"?

 

How about the big hat guy in the next state (hypothetical) who bred his non-working bitch to his successful Open dog? You going to pipe up and tell him he doesn't know what's best for the breed?

 

How about if Sarah comes back with the name of owner of the sire and it's a big hat guy we all know from trials all over? Does that change things?

[karrie]

SA may not be ready for Maybe.

 

SA mite just be looking and thinking who is the right fit for her.

 

Who knows she may just get Maybe and baby Might. I'm sure she will go for the best fit for her and the dog of choice.

[RaisingRiver]

I think Shoofly has the right perspective here.

 

I'm a newist member and new to the concept of the 'working border collie'. And I agree w/ Shoofly, the dogs were breed to produce a working pup - from working lines. They might not be the lines YOU want your pup from, but they were breed w/ their opinion of breed in mind - not for all the wrong reasons.

 

I do not think this MightBe pup is from a BYB. I have a BYB BC pup. She was breed from a once a year litter by non-working parents, mom even has 3 legs. Yes, every year they make their overweight 3 legged BC produce pups. The pups live in the horse stable until someone comes for them. I paid $200 for my pup - not a large profit, but they didn't spend much on her anyway - so yes a profit. They didn't ask me one question about my intentions. That to me is a BYB. I have committed a cardinal sin! I have promoted the breeding for next year.

 

Someone breeding 1 time to obtain a working dog is not what I consider BYB. Esp since they are going to spay.

 

I don't think SA is trying to rationalize. She's stating facts that make sense.

 

I agree there are too many unwanted dogs in the world. But pups that are already born are also unwanted until someone buys them.

 

Would it make everyone feel better if the seller said she would donate 100% of the fee to a rescue group? Then it would be like a regular adoption, wouldn't it?

[RaisingRiver]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

I totally agree that there are plenty of "working" dogs out there who are bred and shouldn't be and I wouldn't advise Sarah to get a puppy from someone like that either. How does other people doing things that are wrong make another wrong less wrong? I'm not into relative wrongness. Color me confused.

 

If I did that, then I WOULD be a hypocrite.

Isn't rescuing a BC from a rescue group getting a puppy who shouldn't have been bred in the first place the same wrong as if Sarah purchased the MightBe pup through the transitive property? You're saying wrong is wrong is wrong.

 

Also, how did you aquire Fly? I know she was imported from Britain... but did you BUY her? Or did you rescue her from a Rescue group? She may have been bred to work and did indeed work even before you got her - but purchase or rescue, if you don't mind.

 

Just trying to see your perspective.

[Miztiki]

Originally posted by Root Beer:

I understand the mission and culture of this board, and I'm definitely in support of preserving the Border Collie to maintain herding ability within the breed.

I wanted to comment on this. Herding ability is nothing. My mutt Fynne has "herding ability". It goes way beyond that. I just elaborated on that on the "I deserve an apology" thread. Please take a look when you get the chance.

[mado]

Well the farmer who gave me the pup obviously forgot to sp/neuter his farm dogs ...I accepted the dog because otherwise it was going to a worse place . So I was wrong ?

I also forgot to tie my tubes so I have two wonderful daughters , almost adults now , that I raised alone from day one , so I don't really have the time to hear that if I'd loved mankind better I would have passed . What does that make me ?

I'm still looking forward to being a grandma some day , and I don't want fanatic preachers to belittle that hope .

Cannot one have a social conscience , live by good principles and still be a human being with normal needs and desires and hopes ?

[Miztiki]

I didn't preach to you or anyone. What is your problem?

 

At the top of this thread you said, "Is adoption (and the love that it implies) only about genealogy?"

 

I responded with:

 

It goes beyond that. It's about discouraging irresponsible breeding of dogs.

 

If people stopped buying irresponsibly bred puppies then people would stop breeding them.

 

Obviously the world will not change on the whole, but I know that my coming here to this board changed me and the way I see things, and I'm grateful for that.

You also said, "Millions of kids would be out in the cold."

 

And I added:

 

p.s. I had my tubes tied years ago because there are so many little humans out there who have no one.

 

I made that sacrifice because I love the human breed too.

Out of that you came up with "so I don't really have the time to hear that if I'd loved mankind better I would have passed" and "I don't want fanatic preachers to belittle that hope."?

 

I put the empty toilet paper roll in my compost pile today. Will you turn that around to mean that I'm accusing you of being an environmental destroyer, and that I think you should have your head cut off?

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

p.s. I had my tubes tied years ago because there are so many little humans out there who have no one.

 

I made that sacrifice because I love the human breed too.

 

You have to admit Miz although it might have been made in jest of sorts it is a pretty inflammatory statement.

[Miztiki]

I'm sorry Sheryl but I don't see how that could possibly be construed as inflammatory, nor did I say it in jest.

 

Mado tied together the breeding and adopting of puppies with children, and compared how the mindset of one would leave millions of others in the cold.

 

I answered the first question then added the fact that I took responsible breeding to another level and had my tubes tied. How in the world is that inflammatory? Or preaching for that matter?

 

Claire has mentioned that she's quitting smoking. Should I take that as a condemnation against my smoking, or preaching to me?

 

Sorry, I just don't get where you or Mado are coming from. Sorry if I inflamed anyone but that is NOT even remotely what I intended.

[fooshuman]

Sarah,

I committed a major sin if i truely cared what others thought. I bought my pup, who wasnt bred for working ability, nor was he registered. This breeder bred his dam 3 times (zag's was her last litter) and she will be spayed. He was upfront about breeding for the money.

 

The sire was a woking BC. Small farm ignorant farmer. He was chained up until it was time to work. Timid and bored is what i thought of this dog. Although he displayed a good command of his herding skills out in the field. I still felt sorry for the fella. BC's aren't meant to live life on a chain IMHO

 

The dam is a family pet. She is the reason i took Zag! She was an outstanding dog! Friendly, playful, and very well mannered. The breeders grandson was out playing with Zag and her, everytime the young'uns went towards the road she herded them back.

 

This pup so far is 100% BC. He also helped me deal with the loss of my best friend Foo. I justify myself by stating this. "Zag might of ended up in a shelter or rescue if i had not taken him home with me. True he wasn't bred for the only reason to breed BC's. But he will never be bred out either. He'll have a loving home for the rest of his life (which i hope is a long time)"

 

I believe you are the only one qualified to make this call. I also believe any dog is lucky to have you in their life. If you truely believe this pup is right for you, (and vice cersa ) well then I say your the only one who can make that call.

 

 

*~*DISCLAIMER*~*

I realize and agree the only legit reason to breed is for working ability.

[kelpiegirl]

Robin:

Thanks for your sage words. I have gone through this very turmoil in my breed. If you think it is tough on this board....

It seems in my breed everyone can't stand everyone. Everyone is very eager to draw a line in the sand. You are ..... if you do ..... You shouldn't breed if ..... If you took everything to heart, NO one would breed ANYTHING. Just because someone has working dogs, does not mean that they should breed-even if they are superiour quality. Many many working dogs are bred in less than optimal environments, and then "brush piled"= shot, when they don't measure up.

Many are not socialized, or vetted, or fed el cheapo food. There are also many who are bred that are maintained very well, socialized, live in good surroundings, fully vetted and happy dogs.

I have met many many working dog breeders, and I have the utmost respect for what they are trying to achieve, but when it comes down to the individual dog for me, there are the other things like having a stable temperament, good health, and longevity, that I ALSO, want in a dog.

And, when it comes down to getting yourself a dog, it is a personal decision- for every dog you look at someone will tell you not to get one of THOSE.

I suppose it is a good thing to hear all of the opinions, but in the end, you have to live with the dog, no one else.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

The dam is a family pet. She is the reason i took Zag! She was an outstanding dog! Friendly, playful, and very well mannered. The breeders grandson was out playing with Zag and her, everytime the young'uns went towards the road she herded them back.

 

It's my personal opinion that that was a really important issue having seen the damage a rescued border with serious agression issues can cause.

My mothers insistance to keep trying to help deliliah strained every relationship in my family.

 

 

There just pflat out has to be a balance between working ability and personality and depending on the persons situation the personality may have to take precidence

[Kyrasmom]

Isn't rescuing a BC from a rescue group getting a puppy who shouldn't have been bred in the first place the same wrong as if Sarah purchased the MightBe pup through the transitive property? You're saying wrong is wrong is wrong.

I think rescue dogs should not have been bred....because if they end up in rescue, then their breeder was irresponsible regardless of any working ability of lack thereof.

 

And IMO, the issue with this specific situation, is not the one puppy itself because certainly SA is a responsible owner, but what about the rest? Will the rest of the pups end up having pups because they're such "great dogs that we need one of their pups". And then you have more puppies, more great dogs. It's a never ending cycle.

 

And this BYB is certainly not the worst of them, and SA should get the puppy of her heart if it's truly that, but the litter was still bred for the wrong reasons. Just like my fluff-butts, I wouldn't trade them for the world, but they were also bred for the wrong reasons.

 

Maria

[Root Beer]

I wanted to comment on this. Herding ability is nothing. My mutt Fynne has "herding ability".

I should have simply said that I understand the mission and culture of this board, then. My point in that post wasn't to describe the mission and culture of this board. My use of the term "herding ability" was not meant to be a comprehensive description of the mission and culture of this board, but a one word synopsis.

 

Of course there is much more to it than that.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by RaisingRiver:

Would it make everyone feel better if the seller said she would donate 100% of the fee to a rescue group? Then it would be like a regular adoption, wouldn't it?

No it most certainly would not.

 

The point of rescue is NOT, my dear, to breed dogs for the purpose of adopting out. The point of rescue is to take in dogs that have been abandoned, dumped, gone unwanted, gone homeless etc. and find them new homes. Breeding a litter and selling the pups but donating the fees to rescue is like kicking yourself in the face - it serves no purpose whatsoever to anyone. Sure it would be nice for rescue to have the money, but I am sure any rescue would agree with me that we would much rather a) have homes for our dogs and not have to rescue so much / at all.

 

Rescue does not bring dogs into the world so they have something to adopt out. This is extremely twisted 'logic.'

 

The sheer number of border collies in rescue should suggest that there is too much breeding going on. I am not anti-breeder, and I love puppies. But I agree with Melanie that this was not "fate" - this is just one more litter of puppies on the ground looking to be sold. There are a LOT of those going around.

 

I'm not going to comment on whether the breeding should have taken place as I don't know the people or the dogs. But I 100% agree that no one should bend the moral rules about responsible breeding or buying just because the puppies are cute / we like the person who wants the puppy / we are too enamoured with all things small and fuzzy to see the bigger picture.

 

RDM