Gender considerations

[sogj]

I may have been searching for the wrong string of words here but I don't see that this topic has been discussed so I'm sorry if it already has.

 

I am interested in getting a border collie in a couple of years, for agility. I'm interested in competition, but not "let's go take universe!" more like "hey it would be fun to do a local competition."

 

I've read everything I can read about gender differences in dogs and specifically border collies and I understand that stereotypes aren't always right, but I'm wondering if anyone has any comments on gender as is relates to agility performance and not just personality in general? Anyone notice a difference in training/performance of your male vs female dogs?

[Smalahundur]

I have been wondering about this also and asked around, the only difference more experienced people than I came up with is that female dogs mature quicker than males. And are therefor earlier ready for serious training.

[rufftie]

I find generally, very generally and just my personal observations, that females are more driven and males are more laid back. both perform wonderfully but I think the girls "get it" faster. look forward to hearing others observations.

[Shetlander]

I really think it all comes down to personal preference. I have seen great dogs of both sexes do fantastic in dog sports. I do agree that the boys seem to mature slower and tend to be a bit goofier in their personality. I personally love that goofiness of the boys. Still, my next dog will probably be a female because I'm going to miss having a girl when my Sheltie is gone.

[mum24dog]

I really think it all comes down to personal preference. I have seen great dogs of both sexes do fantastic in dog sports. I do agree that the boys seem to mature slower and tend to be a bit goofier in their personality. I personally love that goofiness of the boys. Still, my next dog will probably be a female because I'm going to miss having a girl when my Sheltie is gone.

 

This.

 

If your preference is for a dog that wants to be your friend get a dog - if you want one that wants to be your mum get a bitch.

 

Agilitywise in the long run there's no difference in drive or potential based on gender.

 

But we have to live with our dogs a much larger proportion of the time we do agility with them so get the dog you would prefer to share your home and your life.

 

I prefer the more affectionate nature of dogs (generalising) and their relative dimness, but I respect the stroppy independence and bossiness of my bitch too. I'm open to whichever gender comes my way next time but, like you, I'll probably miss having a bitch around.

[alligande]

I have only trained males in agility but lived with both, having had female fosters. In terms of their overall ease to live with we have found no difference, I have not found one sharper than the other, none of my own dogs have very physically affectionate, but we have had cuddly foster dogs of both sexes. What we have noticed is the bitches we have had have been a little more snippy.

 

With my current dog, he has all the drive and focus you could want even when young would train around distractions, BUT he was very slow maturing and if things went slightly off track (nearly always me as he is my first fast dog and I am still learning to handle at speed) he melted down, by leaping and screaming at me. With a good handler it would have come together much better. He is 4 now and we have noticed a huge change in him in the last 6 months.

 

Overall we like the boys, we have had a number of foster bitches and have not wanted to keep one, but a few of the dogs had the timing been right would have stayed. So after all that my advice is also get the dog you want, and then go have fun.

[GentleLake]

I've never done agility, but I've trained for other things -- competitive obedience (though I didn't pursue that very long), stock work and therapy work. I haven't found a gender based difference in ability to learn or perform.

 

Yes, males mature a bit more slowly, and yes, females may exhibit inter-bitch aggression (I haven't personally experienced it in my own dogs, but have in a foster and have known others who have).

 

I always think I want a female, but then end up falling in love with a male when I'm looking for a dog. I've loved all my dogs, but my two heart dogs have both been males.

 

I suspect that some males might be ever so slightly less agile than some females based on their heavier bone and larger size, but I wouldn't think this would be a major difference. Of course, as you're deciding between buying a pup and looking into rescue, another advantage of a young adult or adolescent rescue would be that you'll be able to assess such things, including drive, whereas a pup will be a crap shoot.

 

When I was in the market for another dog recently, I did limit myself to females this time. I'm severely allergic to dogs (yet I just had to have another one!) and my allergist told me males produce more allergens than females as a rule (there can be individual exceptions, of course).

 

But I agree . . . find the dog you love and then go have fun.

[mum24dog]

I think it can be harder to earn the respect of a bitch but once you have it you're set for life.

[Laurelin]

But we have to live with our dogs a much larger proportion of the time we do agility with them so get the dog you would prefer to share your home and your life.

 

Agreed. I see a lot of people get a dog 'for agility' but in reality we don't train that much. Also, I read somewhere recently that most people only stick with dog sports for 2 years or less. So definitely go for a dog that fits your home life the most. Especially if this is your first agility dog, there's a lot to training and often dogs will surprise you. I'm so glad I learnt the sport on my moderately fast but not over the top little dog. She's golden and also ridiculously easy and forgiving.

[Freeman 101]

I asked this question a few years ago, and almost everyone agreed sex doesn't matter. I currently have 2 males. I have noticed that a lot of serious agility competitors do run females, but I wonder if this has to do with jump heights, since females tend to be smaller. My male border collie measures 21.25 inches and would have to jump 26 inches (USDAA) if I had him in Championship.

I have a male Pyrenean Shepherd who I have not yet had officially measured, but he appears to be right under 16 inches. If he's over this he will have to jump 22 inches, which I don't feel would be ideal for him.

[Freeman 101]

Additional note: I also asked my puppy's breeder why I tend to see more female Pyr Sheps in agility, and she did state it was because of size. She stated she sees no difference in working abilities of males vs females. The USDAA and International Jump Heights are very challenging, and it could be very challenging when you have a dog that is "barely over height" having to compete against much larger dogs.

[sogj]

Ah, yes, some excellent points!!! Perhaps gender (or, rather, size) only matters when you're really serious about competing on a very high level.

 

Oh, decisions decisions! LOL

 

Thanks!

[mum24dog]

Ah, yes, some excellent points!!! Perhaps gender (or, rather, size) only matters when you're really serious about competing on a very high level.

 

 

No, it still doesn't matter.

 

Greg Derrett likes smaller dogs - Detox is particularly tiny when you see him up close -

 

 

Here in Europe, and anywhere in the world where FCI jump heights apply, we have 3 categories (except in minor independent organisations that don't count because so few people take part in them)

 

Rough conversion from metric

 

Small - Dogs up to 13.75 ins at the withers jump 14 ins

Medium - Dogs between 13,75 and 17ins jump 18 ins

Large - Dogs over 17ins (most normal BCs) jump 26ins.

 

They're only challenging if a dog is used to jumping lower and even so the vast majority of dogs adjust very quickly because they are and always have been capable of jumping higher.

 

Those heights are lower than they were when I started. I have a 16 in mongrel bitch whose proper jump height used to be 20 in but if there were no classes for her I would run her at 30 in and she really enjoyed flying over them. She's just retired in excellent structural health at 13 because her sight isn't as good as it was.

 

What is important is height to weight ratio. A small BC will have less trouble over high jumps than a Rottweiler for example.

 

Also jumping style and length of back. In our club we have 2 very tiny just 17 in + BCs. One is slightly longer and really stretches out over jumps, the other more squarely built and wastes time jumping higher than she needs to. The first is noticeably faster than the second, despite being older and carrying a large lump on her side that keep recurring. One removal took away part of her chest muscles too but she came back after rehab and started winning more classes than she ever had before.

 

And smaller dogs often save time with tighter turns than taller, longer striding dogs. Each will meet courses that suit them at some time.

[mum24dog]

Please ignore.

[Root Beer]

Personally, I have had much better luck with females. My males have all had extremely challenging temperaments for sports. We've made it work, but our success has always been more of a "personal success". My girls, on the other hand, have had great temperaments for sports and could work more toward "classic" goals.

 

But that can be a luck of the draw thing, of course. I know plenty of females that have temperament issues and are extremely challenging sport partners, and some males who are solid and resilient.

[airbear]

...I have a male Pyrenean Shepherd who I have not yet had officially measured, but he appears to be right under 16 inches. If he's over this he will have to jump 22 inches, which I don't feel would be ideal for him.

Just FYI, come Jan 1, 2014, USDAA has an 18" jump height class for dogs over 16" but under 17.5".

[Freeman 101]

Airbear, that's good to know. Is this for Performance or Championship? USDAA advised me that they are adding 20" jump height to Performance, but I wasn't aware of the 18" option. I think Zip, my little guy, could do the 18 inches. I remeasured him this weekend, and he is still barely under 16", so I "think" we are going to make the 16 " championship jump height. He's 16 months, and I don't anticipate any more growth. This will be our first time in USDAA. I've always competed in AKC, and some ASCA, due to limited USDAA trials. Fortunately, recently USDAA trials are becoming more common. I only trial one day per month, so being able to run multiple times per day will be to our advantage (at least I'm hoping it will be! I may find that this old body can't run that many times in one day, or memorize back-2-back courses!)

[Freeman 101]

Never mind, I see it on their website. Championship 12, 14, 16, 18, 22, and 26. Performance 8, 12, 16, and 20. I'll put my bc in performance. He measures 21.25, and at 9 y/o I'm not going to attempt the 26" jump height.

[gcv-border]

I agree with not jumping 26". My dog also measures 21.25" at the withers, and I practice at 24" because he is a sloppy jumper, and I want to make him pay more attention to the jumps. He is fine with 24", but I am not convinced I should be competing with him at 26" - one of the main reasons why I have not yet entered a USDAA trial (plus they tend to be farther away). I don't really care about points, etc., so if I ever decided to enter USDAA, I don't mind jumping 20" performance.

[alligande]

I have never seen any difference really between performance and championship, in my area there are often more dogs in performance than championship, I choose to jump at 26" because my big athletic dog has no problemsacana jumps well at that height, my other dog did not jump as well and I would never have asked him to jump 22", so we happily did 16" performance. Point collection and tournaments are just the same, ending with basically the same titles.

[gcv-border]

Thanks. Good to know.

[Zach]

small point.... "gender" refers to the socially-constructed roles often assigned to one sex or the other in humans but is ultimately flexible and not strictly tied to the anatomy of a person... the word you're looking for is "sex" which refers to an organism (human or otherwise) with male or female reproductive organs. Point being, dogs do not have genders, but are of two sexes.

[Urban Borders]

Ha. The other thing to remember is that a lot of really competitive or even just very involved folks like to leave their dogs intact for health/orthopedic development reasons. And bitches in season cannot compete in most US venues. But I have to say, in my limited experience, that the most accurate description of females versus males was what I read once. This was from a herding person, not an agility one, but seems very true: if you want a dog that will run 90% of perfect 100% of the time, get a male. If you want a dog that will run 110% of perfect 75% of the time, get a female. Both my girls are drivey, brilliant, pushy, and highly arousable. They can and do lose their brains sometimes, particularly in an overly stimulating environment; when they don't, they are amazing partners. A lot of the males I know do not lose their brains like that, and are the steadier, slightly less flashy versions of their female counterparts. Exceptions to every rule, but applies to most of the BCs I know running in agility around here.

[mum24dog]

The other thing to remember is that a lot of really competitive or even just very involved folks like to leave their dogs intact for health/orthopedic development reasons.

Is that what they tell you?

 

IME here it's mostly people who are open to the idea of breeding from their dog who don't neuter, especially if they are successful in a sport.

[alligande]

A lot of my agility friends, as well as myself have left their dogs intact for the reasons urban border collie says as well as their drive. Non have any intention to breed. I know from conversations I am not the only one who originally intended to neuter at maturity but have fast driven dogs and don't want to take the risk of loosing that edge, I have chatted to loads of people about this and it is a pretty even split between don't risk it and nothing will change. As my dog is a great pet and is really melo in his non agility life, I am going with the don't risk crowd as I love his drive and exuberance. The only reason I have to neuter is to compete in AKC and I am not going to be doing that.