Best training methods for unmotivated stubborn dogs?

[Betsy]

There are so many different training methodologys out there. I get so confused! It's like when I was on a jury, one of the attorneys would get up, make his argument and I would be like, "Yeah, that make sense, I think he's right." And then the opposing counsel would get up and I would think, "Wait, I think HE's right" And so on, back and forth. Usually I'm a pretty black-and-white, justice-oriented type of person so I was surprised at my reactions during the trial, both attorneys were very good!

 

Take the game of "tug" as an example. Some people say "don't ever play tug with your dog." Others say, "play tug, but never let your dog win." Still others say, "play tug but always let your dog win." Ugh.

 

Anyway, I'm at a loss as to how to train this 5.5 month old puppy. He is soooooo the opposite of my last BC, who was pretty submissive and lived to please me. This pup is not really food motivated, not very toy motivated and doesn't really care about trying to make me happy, has no biddability at all!! (Is "biddability" a word??) If I had to sum up this pup in one word it would be STUBBORN. I do think he has a high herding instinct, and I'm planning on having him evaluated by John Holman (2014 USBCHA National Cattle Dog Finals Open Champ) soon, but I need to get a solid recall in him first or it's not going to go well. His favorite things to do are to "eye" the chickens and the cat, and play with other dogs (which we don't have any here at the moment, and likely won't for awhile). His favorite "game" to play would be chase (he loves to be chased for a toy) but I don't engage in this because I don't want to have to chase him to get something. (If I ignore him, he will eventually drop it, if it's something he shouldn't have like a shoe, he will drop it with a really loud "NO" once I'm close enough.)

 

I'm open to anything - clicker training, shaping, NILIF, whatever will work! Right now, he knows what "sit", "down" and "come" mean, but mostly only does them when he wants to, not very reliable at all. "Sit" is the most reliable so far.

 

So, smart border collie people, what do I do with a dog that doesn't WANT to be trained and has no motivation to learn or to please his master? How do I build a connection with this pig-headed pup?

 

(BTW, the shadow chasing is almost completely gone, simply by a sharp "NO" and engaging in something else. I only have to do this 2-3 times a day now, which is sooooo much better than the almost constant redirection when it started.)

[CMP]

My only experience with such a dog required that I eventually turn the responsibility to him and I flat out ignored him while attending to his basic needs. I would only grace him with my attention if he initiated some sort of good behaviour. Eventually he was begging to be trained.

 

Not much, I know - and possibly not good advice - but it did work :/

[Maralynn]

He sounds very motivated to me, it's just that you have different motivations and he doesn't see value in working with you yet. So you need to build value for you and prevent access to self rewarding activities. Can you tell up what you've tried specifically and for how long? Also what is your daily routine with him? How does he spend his time? That might help with suggesting where to go from here.

[GentleLake]

It's not that the pup is being stubborn, but that you haven't found what motivates him.

 

Guess what. There's a book just for you! Jane Killion's When Pig Fly! Training Success with Impossible Dogs. (http://www.amazon.com/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407425826&sr=1-1&keywords=when+pigs+fly)

 

My trainer recommended it to me for Tansy, my impossible lurcher. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but this is a good reminder for me to sit down and do it.

 

All dogs are motivated by something. Most are motivated by food, many by a desire to please their people (man, I wish Tansy fell into that category), many by toys. Although Tansy is motivated by food, the trainer noticed that she's also really motivated by play that involves movement -- flirt pole, running and chasing with another dog, lure coursing, etc. -- and she suggested using those things when I can as a reward.

 

So the trick will be to figure out what motivates him. If it's being chased with a toy, use that as a reward when he's done something you want him to do. He lies down, you give him the toy and initiate a good game of chase as a reward.

 

Btw, what's his name?

 

Good luck, and have fun!

[Root Beer]

Based on what you say, there is likely a TON of potential to build food motivation.

 

Try getting something very high value - roast beef, chicken - something you don't typically give him.

 

Then try revving him up verbally "reeeeeeeeady . . . reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeady" and throw the food so he can chase it.

 

If he chases it and eats it, you can build almost anything on that! If he chases it and doesn't eat it, there is still a lot of potential.

 

With a 5.5 month old Border Collie puppy, I would definitely work on building food motivation.

 

Also, work him when he's hungry. I wouldn't withhold a meal, but you can train just before feeding. That can also serve to build food motivation.

 

He's a puppy. You can have fun with this and build awesome skills like recall.

[Maralynn]

^^^Yup! Liver, cat kibble, cheese, hot dogs can also be great high value treats. Also dogs who love chase games can pretty easily be lured into chasing *you* if you have something high value.

[CptJack]

You can do anything with food motivation, including building toy and tug drive. They make these little mesh tug toys that you stuff with food, and then the dog gets a bit of food as it holds on and more as it continues to hold on. There are tubes you can buy to stuff with food and throw (for my small dog I drilled holes in a prescription meds bottle), but the dog only gets the food/reward when you open it - very quickly turns into a game of fetch, as they start 'helping' by bringing food back to you.

 

Those kinds of things RAPIDLY add value to play and toys and can be a good stepping stone for a dog who isn't naturally toy/play motivated.

And experiment with the food. Cheese, liver, chicken, roast turkey, bits of steak - whatever it takes at first. You can ramp down the value after a while and the dog's getting the message and finding the work/play rewarding. Highest value thing I've ever found for my dogs was an accident -I was out of treats and stopped at the grocery store on a way to class- and that was those Tyson's steak strips. Crazy smelly, REALLY yummy, and the dogs FLIPPED OUT for them. Way too much value for what I was trying to do, but would be awesome for a less motivated dog.

[Betsy]

Thanks you guys, this is helpful! I just bought the Kindle edition of the book and will start it tonight.

 

I have had a hard time finding food that motivates him - I keep him mostly grain fee (definitely corn, wheat & soy free) because he seems to get itchy and his eyes get red when I don't. So while there may be cheaper foods/treats out there that ARE appealing to him (he loved to snatch some of our last foster dog's food when he could, but don't know if that's cause he loved the taste of it or simply because it was forbidden).

 

Raw or cooked chicken - eh, he could take it or leave it.

 

Steak tidbits he has been known to leave on the carpet.

 

He seems to like hotdogs (nitrate free, cause that's what I feed my 2-legged kids), and cheese, but haven't tried liver yet. A lot of the grain free treats from the specialty pet store he just doesn't care for. I mean, he might eat it if he happened upon it on the ground, but he's not going to work for it.

 

He does have a high prey drive which could translate into being motivated by play.

 

His name is Finnegan, (sometimes Finn or Finney). I have a video of him playing chase with the last foster we had - what's the best way of getting it on here?

 

Thanks again!!

[CptJack]

The only dog I have now who will take store-bought treats is the dog who will work for kibble and has been known to try to eat rocks. Chow-hound does not describe that dog.

Play around with real food. Chicken liver's cheap and easy to bake off in the oven. Try some other things like fish, or deli meat, or - really just see what you've got and what he responds to.

 

If he already likes play and is motivated by that, you've got an easy in. The ball/tug toy/whatever becomes the reward you give, and starting of training can just be instituing some rules to the game you play. Or even playing a quick game after a verbal 'yes!' to make the word yes mean something to him so you can communicate what you want him doing. Expand from there.

I have NO ideaabout video.

[urge to herd]

Betsy, keep trying with different toys. Maybe he just hasn't fallen in love with one yet. I saw a video of a dog who turned up his nose at balls, tug toys, chew toys, squeaky toys - blah, blah, blah. He went nuts over an old cookie sheet he found. Pawed at it, barked at it, shoved it around with his nose, tail wagging furiously the whole time. His owner was able to use the cookie sheet as his motivation/reward. You never know.

 

Food wise, he might have some odd tastes, experiment outside the carnivore box. My departed Buzz once crawled on his belly to me, moaning the whole way, for dried sour cherries. He loved all fruit and most vegetables, but the cherries - well, he was passionate about them.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

[Mom of Mya]

Mya has all kinds of balls, frisbees, etc. but the thing that she loves the most is an old half deflated volleyball that was our daughter's that she found outside. She loves that ball to death but wants it half deflated. My husband tried inflating it and she did not like it at all then so he deflated it again and she is right back to playing with it like crazy.

 

Also I don't know if you have tried them but Mya loves the blue buffalo chicken treats, they are grain free also. She won't have anything to do with the salmon or duck ones but she loves the chicken. They are so funny aren't they as to what interests them. She also loves whipped cream in the can. You get that can out and she will do almost anything for it.

[Betsy]

Can't get it to embed, but here's the video:

 

https://flic.kr/p/oCza7V

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Ms. Betsy,

 

Sounds to me - on scant evidence - like a dog that needs real work and isn't interested in panaceas. Some Border Collies do not give a solitary damn for anything but work. For those who believe all dogs offer "unconditional love" or "love to play" or "are a real chow hounds", this is a real and very difficult reality check. I've known fine sheepdog handlers who sold wonderful dogs that simply didn't like them or any other human. I've trained two.

 

You have a solution already in hand. With or without a "lie down" get him to John Holman and listen, slowly and carefully to what he has to say.

 

Donald McCaig

[CMP]

...

 

Some Border Collies do not give a solitary damn for anything but work. For those who believe all dogs offer "unconditional love" or "love to play" or "are a real chow hounds", this is a real and very difficult reality check. I've known fine sheepdog handlers who sold wonderful dogs that simply didn't like them or any other human. I've trained two.

 

Donald McCaig

Yep.

 

We have three dogs here, one bitch who is worthy of the epithet and a couple of males, who simply have no interest in anything at all except work. They are polite enough, if you are polite enough to leave them alone. If you are not, they respond in kind. Two are really excellent sheepdogs. The other is an excellent sire and a middling sheepdog. They are obedient within reason - just enough not to be pulled from the job - but have no social skills whatsoever.

 

Every species is a continuum and all sorts of atypical behaviour is to be expected. I've met lazy, stupid, rude and ugly Border Collies - just not many of them.

[Maralynn]

If one just assumes that a dog isn't interested in anything and lets it go at that then how do you ever really know? I think it's pretty safe to assume that if a dog has the drive to work stock then that drive can be channeled in other ways. And 5.5 m/o with no real training foundation is far to early to write off any other type of training anyway. If you only want to do stockwork with him, then no biggie. But if you want to do other stuff with him I wouldn't write him off at this age.

[gcv-border]

All excellent suggestions above. I will just support them so I don't have to do a lot of typing.

 

But did want to emphasize that based on what you have described, he sounds like once you have found what motivates him (food, toy, chase games, whatever....), training should progress rapidly.

[GentleLake]

Maybe raw meat? You can cut some up in small pieces, lay it on a paper towel and let it dry out in the fridge a bit so it's not too messy. Pretty high value for most dogs.

 

Cheese in a can is doggy crack for many dogs. Or baby food (usually meat) or thinned peanut butter or sour cream in a GoToob. (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_7?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=go%20toob&sprefix=go+toob%2Caps%2C236&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ago%20toob)

 

Here's a tuna fudge treat that lots of dogs love. You can sub a gluten free flour, and use liver or sardines for variety.

[RemsMom]

My pup loves any treat. Grilled steak and chicken are the best but really any treat will do. Today at agility class I had a variety of treats on hand (my daughter is running a friend's dog) and the friend's dog loves the chicken treats and crunchy treats best, the instructor's dog (she was doing a demo) likes the peanut butter treats, the Papillon only loved the chicken treats. I met someone that gave me a sample of salmon fudge that my pup loved and I am thinking of making some.

 

One of the games I play with my dogs is "Gimmie That". In the gimmie game I will say "Gimmie the ball" and the dog will play keep-away. My dogs love this game and it is very different from the commands "bring" and "out". My GSD learned very fast that "bring" was a command that must be obeyed but "Gimmie That" was a chase game with no rules other than to have fun.

[Jescano]

One of the games I play with my dogs is "Gimmie That". In the gimmie game I will say "Gimmie the ball" and the dog will play keep-away. My dogs love this game and it is very different from the commands "bring" and "out". My GSD learned very fast that "bring" was a command that must be obeyed but "Gimmie That" was a chase game with no rules other than to have fun.

I play tug with him and let him win sometimes and say "ok! You win! I'm gonna get you!" then the chase begins. I've been playing this with my pup, though it's "I'm gonna get you!" =I chase him, when I get tired of that, "You're too fast" = I turn around and he chases me. then when he catches up-doesn't take long- we play tug. I know a lot of people don't think you should ever chase your dog but he seems to know it's a game and it has seemingly helped with his recall... It's FUN if I go to mom and then we play this awesome game where we play tug then she chases me and I chase her and play tug.

 

 

But he also knows "Bring" means bring it to me now. Or if that were to fail he has a solid "drop"