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is this actually driving?


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https://www.facebook.com/jitka.ragan/videos/10213810814609030/

 

(dang it I can't get it to embed)

 

So is this Belgian actually driving the sheep? or is he just walking behind them while the sheep head off towards another place with the people and the Border Collie (who appears now and then off to the right) deals with strays?

 

Seems like the sheep don't care much about him.

 

 

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Yes, he is. The flock is large, the sheep are heavy, and the Belgian shepherd is very loose in his work (as Belgians always are), but he is driving them. He is a good calm worker. This is the breed that does shoulder push sometimes, it's pretty neat.

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Hm, I don't see the sheep move off him, it is like they regard him as a black sheep with pointy ears. On occasion you see him even walk into the sheep, and " mingle" without any reaction from the sheep.

 

The dog seems to be devoid of all sheep sense, he just wanders off to the sides only to return when the human (who imo really does all the driving) calls him back. At least I have the impression that is what happens, she does not seem to send him to the sides.

 

The dog is nice and calm I give him that, but nowhere in this vid I see him do something the sheep are reacting to, and could be called work. This job would go pretty much the same without him present I think.

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Smalahundur,

Your reply is exactly what I expected from border collie people :) .

_______

 

I don't encourage non-border collie breeds to come for training to me, but they still do, and it has been a very interesting experience for me to learn what makes these dogs tick. Dog breeds that work upclose have a very different demeanor from border collies, and their interaction with sheep is somewhat different and not as clear to read as it is in border collies.

 

I don't expect that many people will believe me here, but this dog works. This is how they work and this is how they get things done. The description is that this was a flock of 100 suffolk sheep and the route was 10 km, so I would say "well done".

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I find it very interesting working with different breeds of herding dogs. It really opens your mind causing you to think about how to get the instincts the dogs have brought out. Working through their instincts to allow them to understand how stock move, how they effect that movement and then what is we are asking of them brings out the best in every dog.

Some have a preconceived notion of how dogs 'Should' work. Every dog is different even among border collies there are big differences. Some have lots of eye, some are more upright, some can work right up close to the sheep making the sheep calm, some have to be 10 feet back.

The problem I have in watching video is you can't 'Feel' what is going on. IS the handler of the Belgium placing in during the drive? Could the dog do it without instruction? Possibly if she was trained to work that way. Do the sheep and the dog know where they are headed which makes a huge difference.

Is she working? yes

 

What i would like to see more - across breeds - is more natural work without all the instruction like dogs are on a trial course. Surely dogs can /should be able to/ gather or drive a flock of sheep with a simple go to sheep command and a stop when they are done. Why people think they need lots of commands for that it is concerning to me. Aren't we breeding intelligent dogs with sheep sense and instinct? Dont they have 100's of years of working dogs behind them? I don't begin to believe i know more about sheep than my dogs do. If I do that dog does not stay as a working dog. If I am moving my 100 ewes be that a gather or drive I dont have to say much. Some dogs require a slow down.

At times I cant even see the last of the sheep and the dog so I couldn't give the correct instruction if I wanted to.

 

Training so we can trust them to work well out of sight should be the goal not try to train for obedience. But all that is a different subject I suppose.

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Since this is about different breeds and how they work, could someone tell me the difference in working styles between border collies, Shetland sheepdogs, and Australian shepherds? This came up in a conversation last night and no one knew, as none of us work stock with our dogs.

 

Would appreciate it if anyone has the time to tell me.

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The problem I have in watching video is you can't 'Feel' what is going on. IS the handler of the Belgium placing in during the drive? Could the dog do it without instruction? Possibly if she was trained to work that way. Do the sheep and the dog know where they are headed which makes a huge difference.Is she working? yes

The handler only calls the dog back sometimes, otherwise no commands. I asked the handler about it,and she said she would call him back when she felt he was going to far on the flank. And she also commented that the sheep were heavy.

 

From the description of the video these sheep were going 10 km to a new pasture, so it is possible they remembered the route, but considering the distance, they don't cover it everyday.

 

I agree with everything you said in your post, I do love driving the sheep with my dog and not say anything. Bonnie had that unusual balance where I could let her work almost entirely on her own, and the time when I'd send her to get sheep saying "find sheep" and then go and take care of the chickens or geese was my favorite. And yet, when the situation demanded it, it was like she had a switch - she obeyed me with both precision and thinking. My other dog - Darinka is not like that, if she works independently too much her obedience goes south when it's needed the most, and when I try to fine tune her commands - she gets frustrated.

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Smalahundur,

Your reply is exactly what I expected from border collie people :) .

_______

 

I don't encourage non-border collie breeds to come for training to me, but they still do, and it has been a very interesting experience for me to learn what makes these dogs tick. Dog breeds that work upclose have a very different demeanor from border collies, and their interaction with sheep is somewhat different and not as clear to read as it is in border collies.

 

I don't expect that many people will believe me here, but this dog works. This is how they work and this is how they get things done. The description is that this was a flock of 100 suffolk sheep and the route was 10 km, so I would say "well done".

 

Interesting.

 

I have seen many Belgians work and usually the sheep react much more to the dogs, even heavy dog broke sheep. In fact, they often react A LOT when the pointy eared coyote looking dog shows up!

 

I also wondered about the Border Collie who seems to be working the herd around the edges.

 

The other video you showed he is definitely working and affecting the stock.

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Hello everyone,

 

I enjoy seeing dogs of other breeds (non Border Collies) working sheep,and I also believe that dogs of many breeds can indeed be useful, no matter what method/style it uses. The Belgian Sheepdog in the videos is clearly affecting the sheep at times, and at other times, it seems that he/she is basically working via obedience on sheep. The sheep seem to be quite comfortable with this dog, and if it can do what the owner needs it to do, it's fine by me.

 

Regards,

nancy

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I am not fond of generalizations but this is from my experiences with multiple bc, quite a few aussies and a couple shelties.

Most bc have eye working sheep to some degree with the classic stare bcs are known for. They eye I believe gives them incredible balance knowing where to be to effect the flock or herd.

In general the working border collies I have encountered in my 18 yrs of stock dogs have instinct, natural talent, nice wider outrun built in, and stock sense which all is passed down through generations of working dogs. Strong to the head of stock or front of the group. Some are natural driving dogs with good pace others not so much. They simply understand how stock move from a very young age without being taught. A few bcs I have worked with of unknown parentage are also quite good at working stock. Once you selectively breed for other things or not selectively breed FOR work there is a huge drop in instinct and natural ability.

Most aussies I see work or that I have helped over the years lack the drive, intensity, knowledge that comes with working bcs. Many are interested so long as things go their way but do not take corrections well. They simply do not live to work so any correction while working tends to discourage them. They do not have the natural ability to work away from the handler nor do they have the gathering outrun of a bc. They bounce and bark while working and work close to stock. They can shoulder into stock to get them moving in the desired direction. Many head and heel. They seem to learn slower than most bcs I believe because they are not selectively bred to work as much. I have not run across any you can send to do a job and come back to have the job completed.The couple of exceptional aussies I have worked with can do very well in a small pasture / corral setting when working along side handler. Those that have eye work more similar to bcs but still prefer to work closer to stock and handler needing more instruction. There is discussion if they are heading or heeling dogs. I feel they are a heeling dog, more comfortable and natural pushing.

 

Shelties are sweet little joyful dogs that seem to me to not change those habits on stock. The mild temperment comes through to me as a suggestion for stock to move in a direct. Everything is on a smaller, sweeter scale. Some are bouncy and barky while working showing excitement rather than a bc like intensity.

 

Just my experiences in my small corner of the world

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Interesting.

 

I have seen many Belgians work and usually the sheep react much more to the dogs, even heavy dog broke sheep. In fact, they often react A LOT when the pointy eared coyote looking dog shows up!

 

I also wondered about the Border Collie who seems to be working the herd around the edges.

 

The other video you showed he is definitely working and affecting the stock.

The border collie is on a leash and not working sheep, although its being on the flank helps a lot, I'm sure.

 

I have also seen sheep react strongly to belgians; however, my "sheep of truth" show that it's mostly fear rather than reacting to the dog working them, and that these tow things are separate. So if the sheep are naturally following people, and they are afraid of the dog, because it looks scary, they will follow the human giving an impression that the dog is powerful and works sheep. But it is not the same as the dog working them, which shows when such a dog works on my "flock of truth". These sheep will not come to a human unless the dog brings them, so if the only thing that is driving the flock is fear my sheep just scatter or run all over the place. I have seen it with various non-BC breeds with dogs that have even participated in their type of trials. This sort of reaction is much like my flock reacting to Josephine the sheep. This sheep lost her wool so when it got cold I gave her a doggy jacket to wear. the flock was running away from her until they learned that it was a sheep. I am not saying that's always the case, just that it is often the case.

 

The sheep seem to be quite comfortable with this dog, and if it can do what the owner needs it to do, it's fine by me.

I agree.

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There are no doubt populations of working dogs beside bordercollies.

But as far as I know hardly in west europe anymore.

The belgian shepherd is not seriously being used and bred for stockwork for generations.

 

Of course it is possible to take a random dog that has a biddable nature and teach him to work stock, and you will get a useable dog as shown in these vids ( my first comment was about the driving video, I stand by my assessment, he looks a bit better in the second vid).

 

Calling me a bordercollie person and not qualified therefor to understand the different working style of other races I think is a rather weak argument. Work = work.

This dog is in the shown vids doing the kind of stockwork you would do with bordercollies, kelpies, coolies etc. Driving and fetching. And for a 7 year old dog not very impressive, usefull, sure, high quality, no.

 

The reason I would have no interest in owning this dog has nothing to do with the fact that it isn't a bordercollie, and everything with the fact that I don't believe he would be cut out for the kind of work I need a dog for. I got bordercollies because I have range sheep, not the other way round.

 

And by the way, the different style of the belgian and dutch shepherds has to do with a different kind of stockwork, guarding and keeping in place a grazing flock. And again they are not being bred and selected anymore for that job.

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Calling me a bordercollie person and not qualified therefor to understand the different working style of other races I think is a rather weak argument. Work = work.

The reason I would have no interest in owning this dog has nothing to do with the fact that it isn't a bordercollie, and everything with the fact that I don't believe he would be cut out for the kind of work I need a dog for. I got bordercollies because I have range sheep, not the other way round.

 

And by the way, the different style of the belgian and dutch shepherds has to do with a different kind of stockwork, guarding and keeping in place a grazing flock. And again they are not being bred and selected anymore for that job.

I have never thought that calling someone a border collie person would be taken as an offense :lol: , and I would like to point out that I have not called you a border collie person :D . Moreover, I didn't write anywhere that a border collie person is not qualified to answer the question. I said that you wrote what I would expect form a border collie person. And it is so because I've read and heard such statements many times in relation to non border collies. It was an observation not an argument in a discussion.

 

The question was whether the dog is actually driving these sheep. I expressed my opinion, and you - yours. The question wasn't "is it a bonny sheep dog"? It wasn't "would I like to have a dog like that?". It wasn't " would this dog be a match to my sheep" ? the question was 'is the dog driving those sheep". So while all these are valid and interesting observations, opinions etc., in my opinion, they have no bearing on the basic answer whether this dog is driving those sheep.

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Dear Doggers,

 

I once had a chessie/lab cross I could down stay in a gateway so the sheep wouldn't go through. Useful? Yes. Sheepdog?

I was a commercial sheepman before I bought my first Border Collie. I don't know a commercial man without Border Collies. Excepting the rare trialing commercial man, none of these dogs shed, most bite on command and some never make big outruns.

 

If Border Collies were bred so only top trainers could use them they'd go extinct.

 

Farmers and ranchers don't have time (or the culture) to train a sheepdog. They need a dog that can figure it out by itself; a dog that can translate the curses into commands and please its owner. Somehow. That's their genius. They are so much better than most commercial men need.

 

Donald

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Dear Doggers,

 

I once had a chessie/lab cross I could down stay in a gateway so the sheep wouldn't go through. Useful? Yes. Sheepdog?

I call it a "sheep dog effect" and use it with my berner , she has no idea what she's doing, but she's doing it :)

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Where i live, all the old ranchers have border collie type dogs that gather out of sight and shed. they dont train much, the dogs are bred for this for generations. This is why i crossed my jake back to them.

 

this is all cattle work.

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It is often added to a breed name to make it sound like the dog has some ancient original roots. They did it with the english bulldog.

More often than not a recent name addition that does not say a lot about the dog's origines.

In case of the bulldog it is for a new type of dog bred to look more like the pictures of dogs of a hundred years ago (in itself not a bad thing).

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I see :) , well, I don't judge a working breed by its appearance and even less by its name ;) , otherwise where would we be with a name like "border collie"? [just kidding! :lol::lol::lol: , I see your point ]

 

I first learned about this breed here on these boards I think, a few years back, and I fell in love with them, though I never had any desire to buy one, because I'd have little use for them on my farm. It's a tending breed and they are really nifty in some of the things they do, like boundary guarding. They are in a way not a breed but a set of breeds taht work in a similar fashion, their looks vary greatly including one that's called schafpudel, which gave rise to misinformation that poodles used to herd.

 

Here is a movie from a competition I think:

 

Here is the society that gathers shepherds who have these dogs (not surprisingly this breed is not recognized by FCI nor is such recognition sough or desirable)

 

http://www.a-a-h.org/index.html

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I see :) , well, I don't judge a working breed by its appearance and even less by its name ;) , otherwise where would we be with a name like "border collie"? [just kidding! :lol::lol::lol: , I see your point ]

 

I first learned about this breed here on these boards I think, a few years back, and I fell in love with them, though I never had any desire to buy one, because I'd have little use for them on my farm. It's a tending breed and they are really nifty in some of the things they do, like boundary guarding. They are in a way not a breed but a set of breeds taht work in a similar fashion, their looks vary greatly including one that's called schafpudel, which gave rise to misinformation that poodles used to herd.

 

Here is a movie from a competition I think:

 

Here is the society that gathers shepherds who have these dogs (not surprisingly this breed is not recognized by FCI nor is such recognition sough or desirable)

 

http://www.a-a-h.org/index.html

 

Loks a little like the C course from that Organization That Shall Not Be Named.

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