alligande Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I have been planing and plotting that my next dog would be a well bred farm/working dog. My current dog will be 7 and it is time to bring in the next family member. He is our 4th rescue and we have fostered numerous border collies so I feel we have done our bit ( and will continue to foster ). But I am really weakening, our current foster is 10 months old and is a supper pup. He has only been here for 3 days, never lived inside, never been a pet, and has taken to being a house pet like a duck to water. He is smart, learns fast, calm and very cute.... There is a little voice that says I will regret this and my carefully hand picked pup won't be as good as this one. If they had not already neutered him, I might be less hesitant... Choices choices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 Looks like you won the lottery with this rescue. An uber handsome, blue eyed tri with no known issues? I'm not you but for me the choice would be clear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 You have had him for 3 days. Get past the honeymoon period and see how things are going. Why do you want a well bred pup? To train it on livestock? If this is the case, you may indeed want to pass on this young dog unless you have a pedigree and he will likely suit your needs. If you want a dog as a pet, active companion or for sports, a rescue can be a fantastic choice and a good fit for your household is more important than pedigree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 Y'know what they say about a bird in the hand, dontcha? Just sayin' . . . But otherwise I have to agree with Liz . . . it's what I'd just been starting to write. Especially about the honeymoon period. 3 days is probably not long enough for him to have really settled in and for you to really know what he's going to be like. A local trainer who works a lot with rescues thinks that the honeymoon period is more like 3 months than the generally accepted 2 weeks, though I think you can have a pretty good idea of basic personality sooner than 3 months. But if you give him a few weeks and you still like him as much as you do now, unless you have some reason to be wanting that working bred dog that outweighs having a dog you really like right in front of you and giving another rescue a great home. He's very handsome, btw. I'm looking for a dog about that age . . . you could send him to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 Agree with Liz; if you actually want to work stock with you next dog I would pass on this one. But if not I think you should keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I agree with the posters above. ^^^ I am also of the same mind as you wrt early neutering. When I am surfing the rescue sites and I see a young dog that I think "Hmmm, maybe", I will usually be turned off by the fact that they have already been neutered (at 6 mo. or 9 mo. or .... usually neutering has been done at less than a year old). I think the decision would be much harder if I really 'knew' the dog as you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I am also of the same mind as you wrt early neutering. Me, too. But 10 months is a whole lot better than even younger. And also important to remember that many dogs don't have the negative effects. They're just statistically more likely than dogs neutered later or not at all, but I think the risks are still relatively small. Tansy was 6 months old when I adopted her and she'd just been spayed. I didn't like that she'd been spayed that young, but it didn't stop me from adopting her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 Absolutely agree with you Gentle Lake, and Liz P too. The main reason I bought my latest dog was because I wanted to improve my chances should I decide to give stock work a try. If I had had no intention of doing that it would probably have been another rescue (ignoring the complicatíon of my baby granddaughter). It wouldn't bother me in the slightest that he had been neutered since experience and research tells me that it is by no means as big an issue for the majority of dogs as some would have us all believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 ^^^ What they've all said. My choice would be easy, since I'm not going to do stock work. See what surfaces in a month or 6 weeks. That might make your decision easier. Is it possible to take him to sheep in the near future, just to see if he's got any thing going on at this point? Ruth and Gibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 I also agree. If you're not working stock and a month or two from now you're still in love, I'd just keep him. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Don't go into this foster situation having already made a decision, even if you tell yourself you're allowed to change your mind. Don't make a decision. Don't lean one way or another. Don't think about it. Try your best to stay neutral until you've had this dog long enough to have a good idea of if he'd be a good fit. 3 days is nothing. The problem with deciding now is that even if he's great now, something may come up that would have been a deal-breaker had you not chosen, but since you were leaning towards keeping him you already feel a sense of ownership and bias so you ignore small issues and then slightly bigger ones and and and...well, it just spells trouble. Just enjoy hanging out with him and helping him for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 If your wanting to get into stock work with a dog before deciding either way take him and have him evaluated on livestock. He might just be what your looking for. Sometimes some very well bred farm / working dogs end up in rescue to no fault of their own or their breeders, you might have just had one fall into your lap. They typically don't adapt that well by accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Spend a reasonable amount of time together and I think you will be able to answer your own question. Very best wishes for both of you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Non no no Sue, more time will just mean the dog will have more chance to worm himself into her heart... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borasaurus Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 I'd give it more time. I agree that three days isn't long enough to know the dog. Unless there are already adoption applications for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted December 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 You guys are not making this easy!!!! We have had a lot of fosters come through the house - all border collies - and have worked our way through lots of interesting problems , this guy is like a clean slate basically a big puppy and just like a pup he is a big sponge. Normally I agree about the honeymoon period which with our adult rescues we were still finding out about 6 months in. We think nothing bad has ever happened to him, he just lived the life of a non working farm dog in Mallorca, tied out, fed, watered and the occassional ear scratch. He may have already been on sheep, many of the small farmers here don't invest time in training their border collies, if they don't show interest at a young age, they often get dumped at a shelter, or turned out. There are a lot of sheep on the island they are used to keep the weeds down between the olive and Almond trees. We don't have a big window to make our minds up, he already has someone interested in him and we are really just providing shelter till they can get him a flight to Germany. If the dogs fly as escorted luggage they are very cheap, but if they go unescorted as cargo it is a lot more expensive, so the rescues have to wait for someone willing to have a dog on their ticket going to the right city. If we say we are keeping him, they will be fine with it. Regarding getting a puppy, it would not be for stock work but for agility, I got really lucky with my current dog who was about 4 months when I got him, and as much as he is everything I wanted he has mild hip dysplasia in one hip. For the next one I did not want to take a chance with a rescue puppy, I wanted the opportunity of meeting the parents, having him from little - all the puppy experiences that I have never had with my rescue dogs. And after being on these boards for so long that puppy would have to be a well bred working dog what else could it be. Another consideration is that we are strictly a 2 dog house with an occasional foster so if we keep him this is my agility partner for the next 8 years, and at 51 the dog I will hopefully running at my best, being a much better handler now and much better trainer, but still fit and athletic enough to run hard. Selfish thought yes but it is one of the many thoughts running through my head. Along the same lines I am wondering if I should have my vet x-ray him and if he has any problems with his hips then decision would be made, but if they are good then I am screwed!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Puppy experiences are over rated imo. Yes, get him checked out. There was once a young bitch we loved in every respect but we were suspicious of her hips and the rescue had her x rayed to find that try were terrible. She went to a purely per home instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 As someone who just raised a pup who is now 9mo, puppy time is so overrated. And I already knew that before and still know it now. Next time I will listen to myself better and get a dog that is at least out of the real young puppy stage. I do think he is gorgeous and I would surely keep him. But as an experienced foster home, I am sure you have had to let dogs go that you liked. After just 3 days, there must be some feeling in you that says this is different. I am sure you are also aware that meeting the parents and doing everything 'right' still does not guarantee a healthy dog that will like/be good at agility. Maybe have him x-rayed if that will help the decision. Can you take him to where you train and see how his first reactions to that kind of environment is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 If I was in this situation and he passed x-rays, I liked him and he was fitting in with my other dogs, I'd be making it official, keeping him, putting him on some supplements and starting training. The two agility dogs that I have adopted and been successful with were found as strays at about 10 months of age, neutered and adopted. Boots ran successfully until he was 11 when we lost him to hemangiosarcoma, he had been at a trial 2 months prior to diagnosis and was still running strong. Renoir is now 9 and while we do chiropractics to keep him supple he has no issues from being neutered at 10 months. In the future, if I were looking for a sporting only companion, I would go this route again and find a dog between 8-18 months of age. While yes, things can creep up, you can tell so much about a dog and their work ethic, play drive, movement I think it's a perfect time to evaluate a dog for sports. When I met Renoir, I took him into the play yard at the shelter, which was surrounded by the outside runs for big dogs, he had over 30 pits, shepherds and hounds barking at him and lunging at their kennels and the little dog still played chase games with me, made eye contact and would go pounce on a tennis ball when I rolled it away and then come back to me; I figured if that didn't phase him a dog trial would be a cake walk. Best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Puppy experiences are over rated imo. Perhaps, though I wouldn't necessarily agree. I can understand why someone who's never had the opportunity to raise a puppy might want to have that experience. Just because it isn't your cup of tea shouldn't dissuade someone else. OTOH I agree that if you're looking for a dog for a particular purpose -- herding, sports, therapy work, whatever -- you're probably going to know a lot more about the dog's potential when it's at the very least an older pup like this one. Puppies are a crap shoot. The ones you think might be suitable for a particular endeavor can sometimes change dramatically before their personalities are set. And buying a pup even from hip tested parents is no guarantee that the pup won't develop CHD. It's just not that simple. And while more working dogs are being hip scored, it's certainly not universal among breeders of working dogs and there's still not enough (imo) multi-generational information available for most breedings to really offer a guarantee. So, again, a puppy will be a crap shoot. Given your concerns, if I were seriously considering this dog I'd find out just how long I had to make a decision and if I were still interested in him near the end of that time I'd have his hips x-rayed. If any problems show up, you have your answer. If not, it'd be a matter of deciding just how much you want to raise a puppy instead of adopting a relatively known prospect. Your choice, and either way I'm sure you'll be thrilled with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted December 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Thank you for your thoughts. I have been contemplating the situation since I posted and although I really like this pup and he really does have something very special I am not sure he has the drive I want. We are going to spend the next few days thinking it through. It's hard to explain, he is obviously very sharp, extremely curious, loves the company of people, learns quickly, but it is in a thoughtful way. In agility I like working with dogs who I need to teach to think not run, I have learnt a lot working with other people's less enthuastic dogs but it would not be my first choice of partner. It might be with all the changes in his life or it might be just who he is. I have been told that we have time to think about it. Taking him to our agility club would not really show me much, it is a laid back outdoor facility that I am sure to him will be more like the farm he came off than the house we live in which is very different, although I am sure he will be visiting as I am there 4 plus time a week. Until I got Rievaulx we had deliberately got adults and with him I was looking for a young adult and instead ended up with a 4 month old puppy, and I honestly loved playing with him, teaching him things, just introducing him to the world and today knowing what makes him tick, it is just different. Admittedly if anyone has followed our travels we have also done more together than any of our previous dogs. In the mean time the little guy will enjoy being a house pet and start to learn all about living with people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 ...he is obviously very sharp, extremely curious, loves the company of people, learns quickly, but it is in a thoughtful way. He really does sound just like what I'm looking for for therapy work. Too bad you're fostering him in Europe instead of the US. FWIW, Bodhi didn't exhibit any drive when I first adopted him. He was older than this pup, about a year and a half, and had been a stray. His foster home said of him "I know he could run like the wind, but he just doesn't seem to want to." Well, it took a couple months but he did gain confidence and run like the wind. Foster mom was thrilled to see pictures of him running at full extension across a field. But it didn't happen immediately. This boy's gone through a lot of changes in his life recently. I'm guessing it's only been a few days or weeks at best since he was neutered. I expect it will take him a little while to completely open up and show his true personality. I'm not trying to convince you to adopt this pup, but I would encourage you not to make any judgements about his potential on the basis of only a few days with him. Again, I wish you well in your decision, whatever it happens to be. I'm sure this guy will find a great home, whether with your or whomever the rescue chooses for him, and you'll have been an integral part of that no matter how it ends up . . . something to be proud of either way. I still wish he could come here though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickif Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 can you just do some little games with him to see if he may actually have that drive you are looking for? Find something he just has to have, and then play hand in collar, other resistance games/play? Of course you may have to build on it a bit as he probably is clueless to playing games . These are games I play with pups to develop drive and relationship and just to have fun. Yes, it is easy (easier) to see/use crazy drive to begin with, but I have found some dogs just have never learned that they can drive to something. One of my dogs had NO drive as a pup, took a few months. I NEVER thought that she would be an agility dog, just a sweet pet dog. She has turned into a very drivey, very fast, very fun, very focused and confident agility partner. I can also appreciate that she can hang and not need be in spaz mode all of the time too. Guess it might depend on where you want to put your energy . Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 My best agility dog seemed "lazy" and lower drive at home. He was fast but thoughtful. He was also so responsive that if I gave a wrong cue he would twist his body in midair to prevent himself from taking the wrong obstacle. What he lacked in outright insane drive/speed he more than made up for in accuracy. But ultimately this is going to be your dog and the fit has to be right for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vireyda Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 @alligande I think it's really wonderful that you've done rescue and fostering and I support rescues. Having said that, I live in an area where puppies are tagged for rescue as soon as they walk in the door, even if the rescue transport won't happen for another 2 weeks and you're there and willing to adopt. (even if the puppy is several months old and without a mother) This has led to a rather large backyard breeding problem in the area, because many people really do wish to start out with a puppy, rather than an older dog. I've had dogs all my life that were older due to having a vet in the family who often ends up with animals who need homes and I've always wanted to have a puppy experience where I get to have my dog for all of its life bar its first few. Puppies aren't for everyone, and adult dogs are perfectly wonderful and do unfortunately get passed over many times when they would be a better fit for some families. I still really want to do it though, and unfortunately in the area I live in, it's weirdly thwarted by rescues. The situation where you are may be very different, and the circumstances under which the dog was rescued may be very different, but I think if the puppy came from a circumstance like I'm describing, you should definitely let the interested parties adopt. Aside from all that (and please don't take it as an attack on rescues or people who foster, because I don't mean it that way at all) I think you have to be true to what you're looking for. There are so many truly amazing dogs out there for all different wants and needs and if you've had your heart set on something else for a while, you may end up shortchanging the dog in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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