Jump to content
BC Boards

Well, I think I am getting a puppy.....


D'Elle
 Share

Recommended Posts

My dogs are ABCA registered (except for Ladybug, who is a rescue) and I had thought of doing rally events at one time and would have gotten a (Purebred Alternative LIsting) PAL registration through the AKC, which acknowledges that the dog is registered with another breed registry and allows the dog to compete in non-conformation events. I ended up not doing it because the AKC world is, well, not for me and my Red Dog, but it isn't that difficult or expensive to obtain a PAL and is a better alternative than registering a ABCA dog with the AKC.

 

I understand about changing things from the inside, but sometimes the people who do so just become part of the problem because of "group think".

 

All that aside, I too got a pup - actually, two (but that's a loooong story) after many happy years with rescue dogs....we were recommended by someone within the trialing community that we had known for some time and trusted and so were able to put our names on the list for a pup from an expected litter. I got a pup because I lost a dog at just the wrong time in my life when I at most needed a dog and friends found me Robin... I've known that pup since he was two days old, and my DH, his Brodie. (We got Ladybug when she was four years old from the SPCA and she's our very best girl - she's nearly 10 now.). Breeding will out and he and Brodie are turning into two very nice dogs in spite of my goof-ups. :rolleyes:

 

We knew that the pups were out of good trial lines with all of the appropriate health checks. We had a few visits back and forth....the lady selling the pups doesn't often have a litter, but when she does, she either visits every home in which she intends to place a pup, or know someone who has visited the person's home. Luckily, we only lived a few miles away, and she liked us, and our place. When she saw our back field, she offered to throw some sheep in the deal... the offer still stands and next spring we just might take her up on it. :D. We've become good friends and she's supported us in ways I could never have imagined when we first met some 18 months ago.

 

So, from that experience, I would suggest that contracts are fine, but look for what's behind the contract. What do other people think of this breeder as a person two, three, four years down the line after they've bought a pup from her? You don't have to defend her to anyone here...it's your opinion of her that counts.

 

People asked me the question...and it's a fair one...if you don't have stock, and you don't intend to trial, why do you want a BC pup? Well, for me it was a chicken and egg kind of question, and we are working toward acquiring sheep as we had intended. Truly, it's really tough on a dog that has a very strong working instinct to not work...at four months old my "Red Dog" caused a heck of a commotion in the goat pen when we left him back at the breeder's for the day and he wriggled his fat butt through the board fence to have a go at them.

 

So, go for the breeding - the best you can afford. Go for the support -- who will be there for you (besides the folks on these boards)? And, decide what you want to do as an activity if you do not intend to work with the pup. In a good pup, the instinct is so strong, it's a shame to discourage them. And finally, let it take time...talk to more than one person -- keep networking, as you've just done in asking for more information. In the end, you'll get the right pup and be more than satisfied.

 

Liz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 239
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

People asked me the question...and it's a fair one...if you don't have stock, and you don't intend to trial, why do you want a BC pup? Well, for me it was a chicken and egg kind of question, and we are working toward acquiring sheep as we had intended. Truly, it's really tough on a dog that has a very strong working instinct to not work...at four months old my "Red Dog" caused a heck of a commotion in the goat pen when we left him back at the breeder's for the day and he wriggled his fat butt through the board fence to have a go at them.

 

So, go for the breeding - the best you can afford. Go for the support -- who will be there for you (besides the folks on these boards)? And, decide what you want to do as an activity if you do not intend to work with the pup. In a good pup, the instinct is so strong, it's a shame to discourage them. And finally, let it take time...talk to more than one person -- keep networking, as you've just done in asking for more information. In the end, you'll get the right pup and be more than satisfied.

 

This is a really good point. My experience with well-bred working stockdogs is limited, but I can imagine that the work ethic in a young Border Collie of this type is like nothing else. Knowing that, it does seem cruel to ask them to take the working instinct and give them only small outlets instead.

 

I have typically done disc with my dogs. My two BCs aren't close to being serious working dogs, though one is a farm dog and absolutely has the instinct to herd. They are both amazing disc dogs and love what they do- but if my girl had just a little bit more instinct, I wonder if the disc would only suffice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

D'Elle,

I applaud you for being willing to continue this conversation. I think the dismay many long-timers here feel is because we feel like we have been trying to educate, for years, about what makes a good working breeder and what doesn't. I understand that you thought you had gotten good advice and then acted on it, but it's clear that perhaps we--the working dog community--haven't been clear enough as to what constitutes a good working breeder. You're certainly not the first person to think you're making a good choice only to have the working dog folks react with shock.

 

So what I'm going to say here is for anyone who might be looking for a working-bred border collie but isn't sure how to go about it. First of all, look for your standard red flags. If they say they're breeding for versatility and you "can have it all," they're not likely a good breeder of working dogs. If you see claims (or worse, *future* claims) on the dogs' working ability, try to find out just what those claims mean. I remember one of the dogs--the sire, I think--had a working trial champion, which I think is an AHBA title, so that dog has at least done something, though we all pretty much agree that AHBA isn't a great test of working ability either. The bitch had one leg of one type of title, don't remember exactly and don't want to go back and look. Probably the easiest hint we can give anyone looking to buy a working bred pup is that if the breeder is talking about *titles* of any sort, then it's not a good working breeder. And the claims about what a dog *could* do in USBCHA trials are just ludicrous. If it could do it, then why isn't it? That would be like me claiming that one of my dogs could be a MACH (I think that's an agility title), if I weren't spending all my time running him in USBCHA trials. Excuses are just that, and should be considered red flags.

 

Lines are important, but once lines become once or twice removed from the good working dogs in question, they really are no different than any other thoughtlessly bred dog. There are dogs related to my dogs that I wouldn't take a pup from if you paid me, and others related to my dog that I'd kill to have a pup from. All essentially the same lines, but not all the same quality.

 

Finally, the claim that someone is trying to effect change from within the AKC is simply lame. People did start out (when the border collie was first recognized) to do that, but they have largely failed. I know I've said this before, but I think it's very telling, so I'll say it again: I am on an e-mail list that is largely populated by people with AKC herding breeds who wish to work from within the AKC (they also trial AHBA, ASCA, and the occasional list member trials USBCHA). I've probably been on that list nearly as long as I've been on this forum, and the one theme I hear over and over again there is that the AKC has no wish to listen to the people who actually raise and train herding breeds when it comes to the herding program. This is a large and very active contingent within AKC, and a number of breeds are represented, but despite their best efforts, they routinely bemoan the fact that AKC *refuses to listen.* There is no changing AKC from within, and these folks--the ones with a vested interest in trying to change things--admit that on a regular basis on that list. It's a unique perspective for me, since I am not involved with AKC, but it's why I say that border collie folks who claim to register with and trial under the purview of the AKC because they think they can change it from within are blowing a lot of smoke. It sounds good to prospective puppy buyers, but it's just so many meaningless words.

 

In another thread, I commented that working breeders on this forum need to step up to the plate and be willing to help people find true working-bred pups. It heartens me to see that a couple of people have made offers to help you.

 

I'm not sure about your restriction on staying within the state. You will broaden your potential choices if you can look a little farther afield, or if you are willing to have a pup shipped.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's just that traveling elsewhere is an issue because I have two dogs at home and no partner or neighbor to look after them.

 

Can you maybe find someone trustworthy to stay with them at your home for a few days? Or even take them along?

 

BTW I sent you a PM

 

ETA: I second the suggestion of reading "The Dog Wars".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Christina,

I'm one of those people who doesn't buy into the idea that a well-bred working dog is wasted in a home that doesn't have stock and where the dog will never do that sort of work. My dogs do have the opportunity to work stock, but they are also happy hanging out in the house, going for walks and jogs, swimming, playing, etc. I don't think that dogs that never have the opportunity to reach their working potential know what they're missing. If they have a good partnership with a human or humans that are interested in providing them with suitable mental and physical stimulation, then they do just fine. It wouldn't make sense for working breeders to say "please buy working bred pups" if we thought it was doing them a complete disservice to let them go to homes where they won't work or will work minimally. I am much more interested in people from all walks of life buying into the idea that the ideal border collie--indeed the *only* border collie--to have is a well-bred working dog. I know there are some who will disagree with me, but if we're going to be pragmatic and if we say we want people to buy well-bred working dogs, then we need to be willing to supply them, and that includes pointing people like the OP in the direction of a good breeder.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Christina,

I'm one of those people who doesn't buy into the idea that a well-bred working dog is wasted in a home that doesn't have stock and where the dog will never do that sort of work. My dogs do have the opportunity to work stock, but they are also happy hanging out in the house, going for walks and jogs, swimming, playing, etc. I don't think that dogs that never have the opportunity to reach their working potential know what they're missing. If they have a good partnership with a human or humans that are interested in providing them with suitable mental and physical stimulation, then they do just fine. It wouldn't make sense for working breeders to say "please buy working bred pups" if we thought it was doing them a complete disservice to let them go to homes where they won't work or will work minimally. I am much more interested in people from all walks of life buying into the idea that the ideal border collie--indeed the *only* border collie--to have is a well-bred working dog. I know there are some who will disagree with me, but if we're going to be pragmatic and if we say we want people to buy well-bred working dogs, then we need to be willing to supply them, and that includes pointing people like the OP in the direction of a good breeder.

 

J.

 

That makes sense- but what about car chasers? I have two. The female started chasing cars in her first home (got hit twice, they gave her up, and so on and so forth). She proceeded to teach my male BC to chase cars. A BC pup with heavy working lines put into a suburban pet home absolutely has the potential to develop obsessions of that sort (shadow chasing, car chasing, cat herding, etc)- more so than a dog without any instinct, I would assume. I'm just curious what the general consensus is on this type of thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That makes sense- but what about car chasers? I have two. The female started chasing cars in her first home (got hit twice, they gave her up, and so on and so forth). She proceeded to teach my male BC to chase cars. A BC pup with heavy working lines put into a suburban pet home absolutely has the potential to develop obsessions of that sort (shadow chasing, car chasing, cat herding, etc)- more so than a dog without any instinct, I would assume. I'm just curious what the general consensus is on this type of thing.

 

 

I don't believe that has much to do with working lines. I have had exclusively working line border collies for a number of years and never had one car chaser. I currently live in town and we have to drive to our sheep so it's a similar setting to suburbia. We do have one neurotic dog who I can imagine would be a car chaser if he had the opportunity - he's the rescue heeler that can't work a lick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If she taught your male to do it that leads me to believe you allowed the behavior as well. Any dog not trained and raised properly has the potential to chase cars. There is absolutely no correlation to car chasers and stockdogs not working.

 

She is not permitted to chase cars on or off the property, but it is simply unavoidable when we are out walking on the street or driving in the car and she barks as they go by (she generally reserves the barking for motorcycles and trucks). I know she wasn't raised properly- her previous owners weren't the nicest people. She was hit twice by a vehicle and they didn't bring her to a vet either time. She was shot in the back leg. And when she herded the toddler in the home, they left her in a 12 x 12 pen for six months before handing her over to rescue.

 

She understands "leave it" and will leave the trucks/motorcycles alone if I ask her to. Unfortunately, this taught the male to know that "leave it" means "LOOK WHAT'S COMING!!!!". Yeah.... :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Christina,

I'm one of those people who doesn't buy into the idea that a well-bred working dog is wasted in a home that doesn't have stock and where the dog will never do that sort of work. My dogs do have the opportunity to work stock, but they are also happy hanging out in the house, going for walks and jogs, swimming, playing, etc. ....

 

Julie, you are one of those people with whom I find myself almost always agreeing. :rolleyes:

 

I also see absolutely no reason a well-bred working dog can't find a fulfilling life as a pet. My Nick is shaping up to be a *very* nice worker, inhibited only by my inexperience. But around the house? He's just a dog. He'll play ball, go for walks, chase a stick, go for a swim, all the usual dog stuff. So long as he's fully engaged in his person's life, he's a happy boy.

 

I think that's true with most border collies. If a person is unable to manage a BC's obsessive tendencies, then either that dog, or the breed itself, is not a good match for that person. But it is no reflection on whether a dog comes from working lines. Most of the working BCs I know are no more difficult to live with than good training allows.

 

As for a working BC being unfit for suburban living due to a propensity to chase cars or cats ... in my book, ANY dog can be unfit for suburban living if they aren't given enough exercise, enough time, or enough training. I've seen labs and golden retrievers who were absolute terrors, simply because their owners didn't stay ahead of them. The working instinct of a well-bred border collie is only a problem if the pup isn't raised well and given the proper guidance. Obsessive behaviors only develop when the owner fails to recognize and correct them when they start. (Sez I, as I look at the border collie in her cat-watching post under the dinner table.)

 

Last but not least, people looking for pets need to consider what breed is truly ideal for their living situation. It's no fault of the border collie that they were never meant to live in a 4th floor, 1-bedroom apartment.

 

My tuppence, anyhow. Everyone's mileage may vary. :D But I think if the OP is truly prepared for an active, intelligent BC pup, there's no reason she can't learn to guide this youngster to a happy, healthy, well-adjusted life as her pet and companion. She'd be doing working lines a favor by demonstrating that our working dogs are, in fact, fully capable of being sane members of society, even with no sheep in sight.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A BC pup with heavy working lines put into a suburban pet home absolutely has the potential to develop obsessions of that sort (shadow chasing, car chasing, cat herding, etc)- more so than a dog without any instinct, I would assume.

 

No it doesn't. If your dogs chase cars it's cuz you let them, and/or you lack the skill to effectively stop them. This is a training issue, not a breeding / pedigree issue.

 

though one is a farm dog and absolutely has the instinct to herd

 

Unless you have worked your dog on stock, you have no way of knowing that. You are confusing neurosis and bad behaviour with innate instinct. A dog's behaviour off stock is not indicative of its ability to work stock (or not).

 

Like Julie, I think it's great that people are trying to help the OP. And while I was also kinda stunned that after so many years on the boards a long time member would go to an AKC breeder, I also think that a relatively small percentage of the readership pays attention to the sticky/philosophy/working-vs-not breeding issue. Smaller than most of us think, I suspect. You know how in another thread Jodi said she found the technical arguments of "freestyle" nonsensical, or trite (sorry, can't recall the exact phrase she used)? I suspect a good portion of the readership feels the same way about these threads. Not all of us though ;-)

 

RDM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No it doesn't. If your dogs chase cars it's cuz you let them, and/or you lack the skill to effectively stop them. This is a training issue, not a breeding / pedigree issue.

 

Since the herding drive is a modified prey drive, I fail to see how a Border Collie without the drive to herd or chase for stock or prey would have any interest in chasing a car. Have you ever trained a dog to stop chasing cars after they did so for three solid years? With eight hundred rescue dogs under your belt, I'm sure you've come across it at some point. It's a force of habit, and it can be managed but is very difficult to completely stop altogether. The rescue I adopted Maizee from has adopted over a thousand dogs. Maizee was number eight hundred and something. They acknowledged her car chasing problem, informed us that it must be managed, and trusted us to take her into our care.

 

I have consulted a number of trainers on the subject. I have spent hours and hours working with them. My dogs still chase cars. I already stated that they are not permitted to do so- but it is impossible to completely prevent the situation on a busy road.

 

Unless you have worked your dog on stock, you have no way of knowing that. You are confusing neurosis and bad behaviour with innate instinct. A dog's behaviour off stock is not indicative of its ability to work stock (or not).

 

.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like Julie, I think it's great that people are trying to help the OP. And while I was also kinda stunned that after so many years on the boards a long time member would go to an AKC breeder, RDM

 

 

Well, again I am not trying to argue. But the thing is that I truly did not "go to an AKC breeder". What I did was ask someone I trusted, who trials dogs (not BCs), if she knew anything. She asked her trainer, who recomended a breeder, saying they were good stock dogs. I called her and for various reasons decided to contact a breeder to whom she referred me, and have been planning to get a puppy from her. It was not until later I even discovered she registers with the AKC. I was taken aback, asked her about it, and believed her reply.

 

I thought I was doing all the right things. The breeder has answered all my questions, and if I have not asked the "Right" ones, it is my own ignorance. I have never even been to a sheep trial, although I have seen demos and watched it today on the webcast. I think it is the most beautiful sight in the world, to see those dogs work. But I do not have sheep. I do not have the money to take my dogs to sheep, although I dearly wish I did. I just have a Big Love of border collies, cannot imagine having not having them in my life, and want to raise a baby puppy just once in my life. I also want not to go against my own moral standards, and I have taken on a lot of what you folks on these boards say as my own standard when it comes to border collies, because I assume you know a lot. But the thing is, I, myself, D'Elle, know nothing about stock dogs. Have not had the opportunity to learn, is all. And now I just want a puppy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, again I am not trying to argue. But the thing is that I truly did not "go to an AKC breeder".

 

Sorry D'Elle, when I said "I was kinda stunned" I mean with respect to your first post, before you clarified further on. Although I *still* see why the hard core people wonder how someone fell for the ole 'versatility' argument from am ACK type breeder - but what I really mean is, I just think that the things that matter a lot of to some people here don't ever translate to the vast majority of the membership, no matter how much it gets discussed. Your post is the catalyst for that observation. I'm not trying to get in a dig at you, I'm just watching the discussion unfold and this is kind of what I think - that most people just skim these conversations, and either don't really understand them and the nuances of them, or don't care. I'm wondering why that is.

 

And Christina yes I have dealt many times with chronic car chasers, and I also don't agree it has anything to do with how "working bred" a dog is. Lots of dogs chase cars, and they are not all border collies. At any rate, I'm sure if you do a search for car chasing on these boards, you'll come up with some ideas of how to stop it. I'm not going to derail D'Elle's thread any further debating it. Suffice to say, dogs bred to work do fine in appropriate pet homes and don't develop neurotic and behavioural issues just because they are dogs from working parents.

 

Which, back to you D'Elle - I know what you're saying about not knowing anything about stockdogs, but I do think if you hear what the folks here are saying about there being stockdog breeders and good and/or genuine stockdog breeders, you can still get the benefit of that insight without being a stockdog type person yourself. I wonder if, in fact, this is exactly why a lot of the readership doesn't grasp these threads ... because they don't think it applies to them since they are "just pet owners."

 

RDM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since the herding drive is a modified prey drive, I fail to see how a Border Collie without the drive to herd or chase for stock or prey would have any interest in chasing a car. Have you ever trained a dog to stop chasing cars after they did so for three solid years? ..........

 

I have consulted a number of trainers on the subject. I have spent hours and hours working with them. My dogs still chase cars. I already stated that they are not permitted to do so- but it is impossible to completely prevent the situation on a busy road....

 

Hello Christina ~

 

Forgive my butting in, but I would like to address this, because I fear I'm misreading you. Yes, it's possible that a BC with no drive to work would have no motion-reactive behaviors, but then I've seen dogs with no herding instinct at all who were perfectly happy to chase anything that moved. My question, however, is that you're speaking of a dog who came from a poor start - her previous owners failed to stop her chasing cars and it became a habit. You say she subsequently taught your dog to chase cars, and that's a shame.

 

But the crux of the problem, from my distant vantage, is that a dog was allowed to learn to chase cars before she came into your care. The fault therefore belongs to her previous owners, who failed to stop the behavior at its inception. It is not the fault of the dog's innate instinct to work livestock.

 

I believe badly behaved border collies are not bad because they come from working lines. They're "bad" because somewhere along the line, humans failed to give them proper guidance.

 

Thus, it grieves me to see working-bred dogs given a bad rap, when they land in the hands of people who simply can't/won't manage them. I think that same previous owner could have wound up with a car-chasing Jack Russell, and they don't work livestock at all.

Respectfully submitted,

 

Gloria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Christina ~

 

Forgive my butting in, but I would like to address this, because I fear I'm misreading you. Yes, it's possible that a BC with no drive to work would have no motion-reactive behaviors, but then I've seen dogs with no herding instinct at all who were perfectly happy to chase anything that moved. My question, however, is that you're speaking of a dog who came from a poor start - her previous owners failed to stop her chasing cars and it became a habit. You say she subsequently taught your dog to chase cars, and that's a shame.

 

But the crux of the problem, from my distant vantage, is that a dog was allowed to learn to chase cars before she came into your care. The fault therefore belongs to her previous owners, who failed to stop the behavior at its inception. It is not the fault of the dog's innate instinct to work livestock.

 

I believe badly behaved border collies are not bad because they come from working lines. They're "bad" because somewhere along the line, humans failed to give them proper guidance.

 

Thus, it grieves me to see working-bred dogs given a bad rap, when they land in the hands of people who simply can't/won't manage them. I think that same previous owner could have wound up with a car-chasing Jack Russell, and they don't work livestock at all.

Respectfully submitted,

 

Gloria

 

Hi Gloria,

I was speaking more in terms of dogs with a lower prey drive in addition to no herding instincts. Any dog with the drive to chase obviously has the potential to apply that drive towards the chasing of moving vehicles. The point being that the very basic explanation behind car chasing is that the object is moving and the dog wants to chase that object due to either the drive to herd or the drive to hunt (and since the drive to herd is a modified prey drive, it would make sense to group those two together in this particular case). A dog with a lower level prey/herding drive would be less likely to chase a car than a dog with a higher level of the prey/herding drive. No?

 

So, based on that technicality, my dog herds cars because she has the instinct to herd livestock. It is entirely the fault of the original owners, and though I don't specifically know what kind of life she was living there/what her daily exercise regime was, I doubt it was anything close to what a Border Collie should get (especially given that she was confined to a 12 x 12 pen for a long period of time). Therefore, when she had nothing better to do, she defaulted to chasing cars. Her "I'm bored mom!" default now is herding the cat. Fortunately, the cat both does not mind, and won't be running her over if she gets too close.

 

I didn't mean to imply that bad Border Collies come from working lines. I am rather curious about the number of people who come here and jump to that conclusion, since there seems to be an excessively high defense on the subject. I was essentially pointing out that a working Border Collie, without being provided a proper outlet, is potentially more likely to develop obsessive-compulsive behaviors given their drive to work than a Barbie Collie that is generations away from any herding instinct.

 

Of course, a Jack Russell in the same situation would still be chasing the cars due to prey drive. The same goes for all the car-chasing Retrievers, Pointers, and Terriers. All dogs have the instinct to chase- some more than others. All dogs have the potential to develop car chasing behaviors- but just as the instinct to chase, some have more potential for the car chasing than others. That was my point, which I think might have been more of a question- now I can't remember!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prey drive is prey drive and most dogs have it, no matter how they're bred or what the breed, because dogs in general are predators. It's been a great marketing tactic of the breeders who create low-drive dogs to point out that their dogs won't give the owners fits (translated, that means the dogs are such potatoes that virtually no training is required). Sadly, many folks want dogs they don't have to train, ergo these breeders get lots of customers.

 

Well-bred working dogs on the other hand will certainly have an instinct to work. But working isn't about chasing; it's about controlling. I was at a dairy the other day. They own two border collies, who knows the breeding, and I don't know if they actually use them for work. Whenever I see them, they're hanging out at the dairy store. As I pulled away from the store, one of the dogs drifted ahead of me into the road. I knew exactly what she was going to do, which is run at the car. Sure enough, that's what she did. I never thought to ascribe her car chasing (and well, she wasn't actually chasing, since she was charging from the front) as being the result of her breeding, but rather the behavior of a bored dog who has made a job for herself, one that will likely get her killed one of these days.

 

In this area alone, on a short stretch of road, there is a pair of labs (don't know if they are field bred or otherwise), a white german shepherd, and a Saint Bernard who all will run out after cars. While one might be able to claim that the shepherd is reacting out of misplaced herding drive, that explanation doesn't work for the labs or the St. Bernard. It's chasing, period. And as Gloria said, most stockdog folk won't tolerate chasing in the first place, and what working stockdogs do, even from early on, is usually *gathering* and not flat-out chasing something across a field.

 

I will buy that border collies (and sight hounds and terriers, for that matter) are reactive to movement and so as a group (along with sight hounds, terriers, etc.)could be more prone to chase than, say, a bichon, but I think this is more a case of bad behavior being explained away by claiming "herding instinct" than anything else, as so often happens.

 

RDM,

I think you're probably right. There are certainly discussions that take place on this forum that I just skim, and there are discussions that just the thought of makes my head spin (I'll admit that clicker training falls into this category), so I think it's entirely possible that between folks thinking "this doesn't apply to me; I'm not nor ever will be a stock owner" and the apparent universal belief that working breeders won't sell to pet homes, coupled with the slick marketing of other types of breeders (versatile dogs that can do it all; "our dogs are bred to be good pets; they won't drive you crazy with that annoying herding instinct," etc.) means that the message just doesn't get through.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me make this as simple as I can:

 

I have never even been to a sheep trial, although I have seen demos and watched it today on the webcast. I think it is the most beautiful sight in the world, to see those dogs work.

 

Then help those beautiful working dogs keep happening by supporting the breeding of the real border collie.

 

You don't need to have stock or know anything about stock to support the breed for the beauty of what it's supposed to be - a brilliant worker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Christina, as others have pointed out, it's a tough dilemma and one often debated about a well bred dog. (There is an on-going thread about the very subject). .. Robin would, though he has the talent and desire to work, I believe, would (if my interests lay in that direction) also be delighted to do agility. Brodie on the other hand, I truly feel, will not have a complete life unless he is on sheep. And they both love that Frisbee, though so far they both get to chase it on the ground :rolleyes:.

 

My point was that the OP should have a plan for some activity that puts the the pup's energy and intelligence to work on a daily basis if it is being raised away from stock.

 

Liz

 

 

 

This is a really good point. My experience with well-bred working stockdogs is limited, but I can imagine that the work ethic in a young Border Collie of this type is like nothing else. Knowing that, it does seem cruel to ask them to take the working instinct and give them only small outlets instead.

 

I have typically done disc with my dogs. My two BCs aren't close to being serious working dogs, though one is a farm dog and absolutely has the instinct to herd. They are both amazing disc dogs and love what they do- but if my girl had just a little bit more instinct, I wonder if the disc would only suffice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love the working border collie.

 

Working sheep alongside these dogs, seeing what they can do, being a small part of that three way relationship, connects me with life and helps life make sense to me in a way nothing else ever has.

 

I love the working border collie. That is my only agenda.

 

If you don't love the working border collie for what it is, please don't ruin this breed for those of us who need and love these dogs for what they are meant to be.

 

Please support the working border collie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. The thing about chasing cars has to do with the chase instinct not the herding instinct. Herding instinct is very complex, chase instinct is very simple: it moves - I chase it. BCs do not chase cars because they want to herd. They chase cars because they want to chase.

 

Hi Maja,

I don't understand how this could be true. I agree with everything else you said- but based on what I have seen from my Border Collie, I know she is herding (not just chasing) the cars she goes after. If somebody pulls into our driveway, she will get in front of that car and circle the front in an attempt to make it turn around- just as she would do with sheep. I know she is herding because I see her do this on one other non-sheep object- other dogs. Since I usually have my dogs with me while I'm out pet sitting, I stop by the dog park occasionally to let them burn some energy (and no, I'm not trying to get into the debate about dog parks- I've been going for years and mine do just fine there). This is where Maizee will herd the other dogs. She circles around those that stand still and chases those who do not. My question there is, would that mean when she circles she is herding and when she chases she is chasing? If a stockdog is running out for a fetch, is he chasing or herding? Does the herding begin when he actually gets to the sheep? I suppose since the goal of the dog is the bring the stock back to the handler, it would be herding- but at some point, that dog is actually chasing to accomplish his goal.

 

Sorry- I don't mean to hijack this forum, but I'm curious now.

 

2. Chasing car problem has less to do with what lines the BCs come from and a lot to do with how they were bought up. Inside every normal BC there is a car chaser. The owner always must be on the look out for the development of car chasing mania. You do not step in when the dog begins to chase cars. You step in when the dog looks at a car or anything that moves that isn’t the stick you’ve just thrown for the dog.

 

That makes sense, but it would seem that some dogs are more predisposed to chase cars than others. Though every bored dog might revert to eventually chasing a car, some would arrive at the car chasing conclusion far before the more intense dogs who are bored more easily, which was the point I was trying to convey. No?

 

3. Working BC breeders do not ever breed for chasing instinct, they breed for herding instinct. However, breeders who breed for sports often breed indirectly for chasing because they want a dog with passion to fetch. Further, sports owners cultivate the desire to chase by teaching throwing sticks and toys for the dog since early puppyhood. Livestock owners do not cultivate the chasing instinct. A dog with a strong chase instinct is a pain in many parts of the body. Playing fetch is something discouraged for a future herding dog.

 

I don't disagree with you here. I'm not sure who raised either of my dogs or what they did with them, but both have turned into fantastic disc dogs with a little work. I'm sure that would make them a growing pain as working dogs- but they're not, so that's a nonissue.

 

4. So a person taking a BC for non-stock work should be prepared that unless they take a BC that was crossed with a turtle, they must be ready for the problem. A young dog left in the yard alone where there are cars passing by will develop the car chasing mania.

 

Understood! I was referring to those that were crossed with a turtle as compared to those who were not.

 

5. From my own experience, the best way to bring up a puppy is the way they are brought up by sheep herding people – regardless of the future purpose of the dog. It allows in the first period of the dog's life to firmly establish a proper relationship with the owners.

 

Interesting perception. I've never had a puppy- I can't make an opinion on this.

 

 

 

Prey drive is prey drive and most dogs have it, no matter how they're bred or what the breed, because dogs in general are predators. It's been a great marketing tactic of the breeders who create low-drive dogs to point out that their dogs won't give the owners fits (translated, that means the dogs are such potatoes that virtually no training is required). Sadly, many folks want dogs they don't have to train, ergo these breeders get lots of customers.

 

I've met these low-drive dogs that were purposly bred to be lazy pets. One was a Beagle purchased from a pet store. The owner told me that it was a "special dog because it was specifically bred to not act like a hound". :rolleyes:

 

I was referring to these dogs exactly, as well as the conformation dogs who can't herd or hunt worth a damn (all breeds). Although, to that end, I have heard a sad story of a conformation dog who was hit by a car because he was allowed to chase.

 

Well-bred working dogs on the other hand will certainly have an instinct to work. But working isn't about chasing; it's about controlling. I was at a dairy the other day. They own two border collies, who knows the breeding, and I don't know if they actually use them for work. Whenever I see them, they're hanging out at the dairy store. As I pulled away from the store, one of the dogs drifted ahead of me into the road. I knew exactly what she was going to do, which is run at the car. Sure enough, that's what she did. I never thought to ascribe her car chasing (and well, she wasn't actually chasing, since she was charging from the front) as being the result of her breeding, but rather the behavior of a bored dog who has made a job for herself, one that will likely get her killed one of these days.

 

In this area alone, on a short stretch of road, there is a pair of labs (don't know if they are field bred or otherwise), a white german shepherd, and a Saint Bernard who all will run out after cars. While one might be able to claim that the shepherd is reacting out of misplaced herding drive, that explanation doesn't work for the labs or the St. Bernard. It's chasing, period. And as Gloria said, most stockdog folk won't tolerate chasing in the first place, and what working stockdogs do, even from early on, is usually *gathering* and not flat-out chasing something across a field.

 

Which answers my above question. Thank you!

 

Christina, as others have pointed out, it's a tough dilemma and one often debated about a well bred dog. (There is an on-going thread about the very subject). .. Robin would, though he has the talent and desire to work, I believe, would (if my interests lay in that direction) also be delighted to do agility. Brodie on the other hand, I truly feel, will not have a complete life unless he is on sheep. And they both love that Frisbee, though so far they both get to chase it on the ground :D.

 

My point was that the OP should have a plan for some activity that puts the the pup's energy and intelligence to work on a daily basis if it is being raised away from stock.

 

Liz

 

Gotcha.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which answers my above question. Thank you!

 

This might seem like a non sequitur without my original post to put it in context, but I wanted to expand on the chasing vs. gathering thing, because you asked specifically about the outrun. A proper outrun takes a dog on a trajectory that helps the dog end up *behind* the stock without disturbing them until the dog is in a position to take control and move the stock toward the human (the gather). Even if you have stock that try to run away, the dog running behind them trying to "catch" them is bending out and around to try to get to their heads to stop them and turn them. The purpose of chasing (and with young dogs it does happen sometimes, especially if the stock are capable of outrunning the dog) is to chase. It's a subtle difference, but an important one. A dog chasing prey has a goal in mind, which usually is catching and killing that prey. A stockdog "chasing" stock first and foremost is trying to *gain control* of the stock and turn the stock back toward the dog's human partner. The biggest problem novice handlers have with young dogs is stopping them too soon (for fear of chasing) when stock take off and the dog is desperately trying to cover (get around them and turn them) because if the terrain is such that the dog can't kick out wide, it can appear like chasing. Again, working dogs on stock over time will help a person to differentiate when attempting to control has become chasing.

 

As for cars and other mechanized objects, I certainly believe that the desire to control movement is a factor in circling, biting, running after, etc. BUT too often people write such behavior off as "herding instint," which is de facto code for "it's genetic and can't be trained out of them." And that takes me back to a comment I made in my earlier post. It's easier to label all sorts of bad behaviors as "herding instinct" then it is to spend the time correcting those behaviors. So "herding instinct" has become something of a hot button issue among folks who actually rely on that instinct for helping to manage our livestock. None of my dogs chase vehicles or small animals (okay, if they surprise a suirrel out on our walks, they'll give chase, but they also have excellent recalls so that such chases don't become life-and-death issues for either pursuer or pursued). I don't think it's because my dogs are trained for stockwork that they leave cars and lawnmowers alone; they leave mechanized objects alone because I have taught them to do so.

 

Twice now the shepherd up the street has charged out at my van, and once the St. Bernard. The owner was present on each occasion and made no move to correct or stop either dog. I couldn't help but think that perhaps the owners just didn't care if their dogs were run over.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...