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One thing that I have really come to realize is that people who use corrections (to any degree) like the results that they get through corrections. Conversely, those who use reinforcement tend to prefer the results that they get through reinforcement. And, those who use a mix like the results that they get through that mix.

 

When I see those results with my own eyes, I don't always understand why the person likes those results, just as there are those who don't always understand why reinforcement trainers like the results that they get, but I can get my brain around the fact that they like those results. That even though I often simply don't see what they see. And they often don't see what I see. It might seem like it should be more objective than that, but in practice I have observed that it is usually not.

 

Great statements!

 

I would bet money that if Lou Castle watched my clicker trained dog recall instantly off of a very high level distraction, sit immediately on cue, down immediately on cue, leave something that he wants alone immediately when cued to do so, watch cars go by without even thinking about chasing, etc., he would see something that he didn't like about it even if everything technically met his criteria for success. [Emphasis Added]

 

You'd lose that bet. When I watch a dog work, I don't ask how he was trained until AFTER I have made a judgment about the quality of that work. If the work was good and it's a tool/method that I don't use, I'm going to spend some time learning about it. I've mentioned that I used the so−called "kinder gentler methods" myself for things that they're appropriate for and dogs that it works with. But often that gets lost in these discussions.

 

And, if I were watching the dogs trained with his method, I wouldn't be the least surprised if there were something about the way that the dogs responded that I wouldn't like.

 

I try not to be prejudiced about such things. I find it makes it easier for me to learn new things.

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With treat training he wants to avoid the discomfort of NOT having the treat.

 

That is an interesting spin, but, quite frankly, I don't buy that not having a treat for a few seconds, or even minutes, is "discomfort" that the dog is trying to avoid. Not for the average well fed and well cared for pet dog. Sure, it would be discomfort for a dog that is actually starving, but no reinforcement trainer in his or her right mind is going to be training a dog that is starving to a degree where needing to wait a few seconds for a treat while learning something is going to cause the dog true discomfort.

 

I have a foster with me right now who was experiencing actual discomfort when I met her in the shelter. She was almost completely shut down. She was miserable and confused living in a small kennel with a concrete floor amid masses of barking dogs and strange people moving into her space on a daily basis.

 

Now that she has been in my house for a few days, she is starting to decompress. The thing that apparently brings her the most joy is lying on furniture. The look on her face as she lays on a bed or a chair can only be described as beatific. The look on her face when she was in the shelter - experiencing discomfort - in contrast to her face as she relaxes in a place that is quiet and safe illustrates what discomfort truly is.

 

When I stand in front of a well fed, well loved, secure, active, happy, very satisfied dog with a treat in hand (or pocket or on a shelf or wherever), there is no discomfort on the radar. Eager anticipation, yes. Trusting hope, absolutely. Discomfort? Not remotely close.

 

I don't know about you, but I find it pretty easy to tell by the look on a dog's face whether the dog is experiencing discomfort or enjoyment. The eyes tell the story loud and clear.

 

I do understand why it is important to you to believe that not having a treat at some point in the process of reinforcement based training is "discomfort" that the dog wants to avoid. Personally, though, I find the notion ridiculous. I know that's kind of blunt, but you strike me as the type who can handle blunt honesty. Please feel free to let me know if I'm wrong about that.

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That is an interesting spin, but, quite frankly, I don't buy that not having a treat for a few seconds, or even minutes, is "discomfort" that the dog is trying to avoid.

 

I do understand why it is important to you to believe that not having a treat at some point in the process of reinforcement based training is "discomfort" that the dog wants to avoid. Personally, though, I find the notion ridiculous. I know that's kind of blunt, but you strike me as the type who can handle blunt honesty. Please feel free to let me know if I'm wrong about that.

 

+1

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That is an interesting spin, but, quite frankly, I don't buy that not having a treat for a few seconds, or even minutes, is "discomfort" that the dog is trying to avoid. Not for the average well fed and well cared for pet dog. Sure, it would be discomfort for a dog that is actually starving, but no reinforcement trainer in his or her right mind is going to be training a dog that is starving to a degree where needing to wait a few seconds for a treat while learning something is going to cause the dog true discomfort.

 

I have a foster with me right now who was experiencing actual discomfort when I met her in the shelter. She was almost completely shut down. She was miserable and confused living in a small kennel with a concrete floor amid masses of barking dogs and strange people moving into her space on a daily basis.

 

Now that she has been in my house for a few days, she is starting to decompress. The thing that apparently brings her the most joy is lying on furniture. The look on her face as she lays on a bed or a chair can only be described as beatific. The look on her face when she was in the shelter - experiencing discomfort - in contrast to her face as she relaxes in a place that is quiet and safe illustrates what discomfort truly is.

 

When I stand in front of one a well fed, well loved, secure, active, happy, very satisfied dog with a treat in hand (or pocket or on a shelf or wherever), there is no discomfort on the radar. Eager anticipation, yes. Trusting hope, absolutely. Discomfort? Not remotely close.

 

I do understand why it is important to you to believe that not having a treat at some point in the process of reinforcement based training is "discomfort" that the dog wants to avoid. Personally, though, I find the notion ridiculous. I know that's kind of blunt, but you strike me as the type who can handle blunt honesty.

 

Yeah, I fail to see how a dog having to work for a treat is "discomfort" to the dog. Mine are generally happy and wagging their tails.

 

Even Sinead, who is a glutton, can handle having to sit and wait for me to put her bowl down and then wait for me to say it's okay to actually start eating, happily. Then, there's Mick, who could honestly care less about food most of the time. His typical reaction is "Oh dinner? I'm supposed to eat...meh." I doubt he's experiencing any "discomfort" waiting for his handout.

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This may be a stupid question, but I have to wonder why one would even be working with a dog who requires, say, and E-collar to be trained to do a job. I am not against the use of E-collars in situations where the dog's life is endangered by whatever behavior the E-collar is being used to correct, but I just don't get the routine use of such to get a dog to do something like SAR work. ISTM that a dog sufficiently motivated to do the work for a reward would be the type of dog who would be a good candidate for that type of training, whereas a dog who needed some form of punishment (sorry for bringing up a word so fraught with meaning) in order to be trained to do a job simply isn't a good candidate for the job.

 

Sorry to bring up stock work, but it's the training I do. If I am working with a dog who requires an E-collar to get it to do the work I want, then I have to say that it's not a dog I'd want to work with. That sort of mindset doesn't bode well for the type of working partnership I want with my dog. There have been discussions about this in working dog circles--if you're breeding dogs that are so darn hard that you have to escalate corrections to that point, then what is the point of the breeding in the first place. Humans working with dogs are partnerships, IMO, built on trust and a common goal. I just don't see how an E-collar fits into that training regimen.

 

And before Lou asks, I have *not* read your articles, so all of what I am saying here is based on the idea that the collar is being used at a level that causes *discomfort* for the dog. And no, I don't consider waiting for a treat or working for a treat to be a form of discomfort for a dog. And I happen to be someone who uses corrections in my training, though usually not to the point of causing physical discomfort for the dog (and the latter would occur only in situations where another life--the stock--is being abused by said dog).

 

So I have to agree with Kristine et al. that claiming that waiting for a treat causes discomfort is a weird spin being used for justification of a method.

 

And I think the whole idea of needing to use an E-collar for dogs that are "so driven" begs the question of why such dogs are being bred, when in fact they need to be willing to work with their human partners in the first place?

 

J.

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Yeah, I fail to see how a dog having to work for a treat is "discomfort" to the dog. Mine are generally happy and wagging their tails>>> stress.

 

there is even a study showing higher cortisol levels in mals when a treat is withheald than E-collar corection. Although I would think its a leap to generalize that to all dogs.

 

http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissertations/boehmi_ss09.pdf

 

<<<And I think the whole idea of needing to use an E-collar for dogs that are "so driven" begs the question of why such dogs are being bred, when in fact they need to be willing to work with their human partners in the first place?>>>>

 

ask that question an in a forum dedicated to field trial retrievers or working/schutzhund

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there is even a study showing higher cortisol levels in mals when a treat is withheald than E-collar corection. Although I would think its a leap to generalize that to all dogs.

 

The eyes don't lie. Most dogs, when anticipating the possibility of getting a treat, are clearly eager. And dogs who learn to work to earn treats tend to become eager and happy to do what is asked to earn that reward - even when duration is being built and the rate of reinforcement is lowered.

 

Given the results of that study (which I cannot read or even skim because it is in a language I do not speak or read), I'd have to wonder exactly what they were doing to those dogs when the treat was being withheld. Were they simply holding the treat out to the dog and then removing it from the situation? Did the dog expect to be able to earn the treat once it was removed? Was some sort of non-reward marker being used to indicate that all chances of earning the treat had been removed?

 

The answer to those questions would be important in determining if training with food rewards is, indeed, of equal discomfort to a dog as the application of electric shock.

 

In addition, were the brain chemicals that indicate pleasure and anticipation being measured at the same time as the cortisol? What effect did anticipation of a food reward have on those levels? How would that compare to levels of those chemicals as the application of electric shock.

 

I think one would be hard pressed to truly prove that the very short periods of time in training with food rewards where a dog does not have access to the treats produces a level of discomfort that comes anywhere close to approaching the discomfort that a dog would experience upon application of electric shock - even a low level - to that dog.

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Yeah, I fail to see how a dog having to work for a treat is "discomfort" to the dog. Mine are generally happy and wagging their tails>>> stress.

 

there is even a study showing higher cortisol levels in mals when a treat is withheald than E-collar corection. Although I would think its a leap to generalize that to all dogs.

 

http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissertations/boehmi_ss09.pdf

 

<<<And I think the whole idea of needing to use an E-collar for dogs that are "so driven" begs the question of why such dogs are being bred, when in fact they need to be willing to work with their human partners in the first place?>>>>

 

ask that question an in a forum dedicated to field trial retrievers or working/schutzhund

 

I can tell the difference between my dogs being stressed and being happy.

 

And I have absolutely no idea why you would try to prove your point by linking to a PDF of a dissertation in German. I'm sure a couple people on this board can read it, but my foreign language skills are limited to knowing choice words in Spanish.

 

Are we really going to have to start up with this absurd waiting for a treat is worse than an e-collar shock discussion again? Do you even have a Border Collie, or intend to get one? This just seems like such an odd "first" post for somebody.

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Yeah, I fail to see how a dog having to work for a treat is "discomfort" to the dog. Mine are generally happy and wagging their tails>>> stress.

 

there is even a study showing higher cortisol levels in mals when a treat is withheald than E-collar corection. Although I would think its a leap to generalize that to all dogs.

 

http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissertations/boehmi_ss09.pdf

 

<<<And I think the whole idea of needing to use an E-collar for dogs that are "so driven" begs the question of why such dogs are being bred, when in fact they need to be willing to work with their human partners in the first place?>>>>

 

ask that question an in a forum dedicated to field trial retrievers or working/schutzhund

 

Hi Jimi!

I see your only post so far is in support of e-collars. Buddy of Lou Castle then?

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Yep, I think it's best not to get sucked into this again with someone who is apparently either the same person or a friend of his. Silly to go that route anyway, as Eileen will stop it.

 

J.

 

You're right. :) Stepping away from it . . .

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food rewards is, indeed, of equal discomfort >>>> I did not say physical discomfort i said stress (cortisol levels).

 

<<<Are we really going to have to start up with this absurd waiting for a treat is worse than an e-collar shock discussion again? >>>> never said that. I said in this study a breed that shows very high drive showed increased stress. Im sure the results would vary if aplied to other breeds

 

 

Power point of the study in english- sorry i could not find the english copy when i posted the last link

 

http://www.ecma.eu.com/Comparison%20of%20stress%20and%20learning%20effects%20of%20three%20different%20training%20methods%20in%20dogs.pdf

 

I am not Lou, but I did hear of this discussion from another forum. I was pointing out some info that I taught readers may find interesting. Not argue

 

im out

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Oh, look. A new game we can play. It's called, "Name that sock puppet."

 

If you succeed -- the sock puppet will make a noise like a hoop and vanish away!

 

Then, of course, we're left to ponder: is the withdrawal of the sock puppet a reward, or a punishment?

 

Only the big grey crinkled mass of wetware inside your own personal skull knows for sure.

 

LizSinSCPA

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Oh, look. A new game we can play. It's called, "Name that sock puppet."

 

If you succeed -- the sock puppet will make a noise like a hoop and vanish away!

 

Then, of course, we're left to ponder: is the withdrawal of the sock puppet a reward, or a punishment?

 

Only the big grey crinkled mass of wetware inside your own personal skull knows for sure.

 

LizSinSCPA

 

Sorry I tried to give any info, was I offensive? argumentative? your answer to me is certainly a personal attack, offensive, and quite childish

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This response sounds oddly familiar.

 

 

I was called a "sock puppet" because I posted a study done by a veterinary university. Is that not a personal attack? Im not here arguing treat based training is bad. Most of my own training is clicker based. I am just pointing out that E-collars are not always the torture device they are made to be. In fact used on its lowest settings as most advocate now days Id say its less severe than a pinch or choke collar correction. We are talking levels that the dog just perceives. ever go to a physical therapist or chiropractor and get muscle stimulation? we are talking the levels when you just start to perceive it.

 

now if you are against all physical corrections of any kind then of course this would fall there.

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I was called a "sock puppet" because I posted a study done by a veterinary university. Is that not a personal attack? Im not here arguing treat based training is bad. Most of my own training is clicker based. I am just pointing out that E-collars are not always the torture device they are made to be. In fact used on its lowest settings as most advocate now days Id say its less severe than a pinch or choke collar correction. We are talking levels that the dog just perceives. ever go to a physical therapist or chiropractor and get muscle stimulation? we are talking the levels when you just start to perceive it.

 

now if you are against all physical corrections of any kind then of course this would fall there.

 

I'm not 100% opposed to e-collars. I use prong collars myself. I'm not a purely positive trainer.

 

I just think it's incredibly suspicous that you show up here after Lou Castle departs having just "heard" of this discussion on another forum. I mean, it seems like a pretty big coincidence.

 

Do you have Border Collies? Do you plan to get a Border Collie?

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Do you have Border Collies? Do you plan to get a Border Collie? >>>

 

I have worked w border collies in shelter settings. No i do not have a border collie, cant speak to the future. and I am not Lou. Really I just came on to read. I felt I had one point I could add to the discussion, thats all. I really was not trying to troll and start arguments

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I am just pointing out that E-collars are not always the torture device they are made to be.

 

I really was not trying to troll and start arguments

 

If that is the case, I have a little advice. You might want to seriously consider not trying to convince people that the seconds or minutes during which a dog is awaiting a treat in reinforcement based training causes a level of stress that is equivalent to, or higher than, the stress that is caused by the application of electric shock - even at low levels. Even in cases where a treat is withheld for a short time because a mistake on the dog's part.

 

A study that shows that application of electric shock increases levels of the brain chemicals that are produced when one feels happy, confident, peaceful, and eager, with a general sense of well being, would probably be a great deal more useful to you. And I don't mean the removal of the electric shock, but the direct application (one must apply it in order to remove it, after all). Also, if you are going to use the cortisol study, you should also post a link to a study that measures the level of those while a dog is being trained with treats. Trained correctly, that is. Not starved or teased with the food, but trained in the way that a good reinforcement based trainer would actually train.

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I was called a "sock puppet" because I posted a study done by a veterinary university. Is that not a personal attack? Im not here arguing treat based training is bad. Most of my own training is clicker based. I am just pointing out that E-collars are not always the torture device they are made to be. In fact used on its lowest settings as most advocate now days Id say its less severe than a pinch or choke collar correction. We are talking levels that the dog just perceives. ever go to a physical therapist or chiropractor and get muscle stimulation? we are talking the levels when you just start to perceive it.

 

now if you are against all physical corrections of any kind then of course this would fall there.

 

Rule #1 when posting as a "different person" during an argument: Adjust your typing habits. I was in high school while MySpace was a "thing"- I've been in plenty of stupid online arguments during which either the arguer or the arguee brought up a "friend" to stand up for his or her point. We thought we were clever by disguising the way we type.

 

but of course that wuld b 2 obvious =]

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Yeah, I fail to see how a dog having to work for a treat is "discomfort" to the dog. Mine are generally happy and wagging their tails>>> stress.

 

there is even a study showing higher cortisol levels in mals when a treat is withheald than E-collar corection. Although I would think its a leap to generalize that to all dogs.

 

http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissertations/boehmi_ss09.pdf

 

There are a number of, shall we say, problematic aspects to that study, at least in respect to the conclusions you seem to be implying. The dogs, aged 3 to 10, were fully trained police dogs and thus familiar with electronic shock collars and their use in training. The alternative technique, negative punishment (i.e. not positive reinforcement) was taught for four months - by the dogs' traditional trainers. The experiment involved a standard Schutzhund test - a requested behavior fairly typical for a police dog. As far as the cortisol levels (not an unambiguous marker of stress, which itself is ambiguous) -17 dogs with negative punishment reached max cortisol levels, 15 dogs with shock collars reached max, and 10 dogs with a prong collar did. Since I'm not a statistician I can't really attest to the significance of those numbers, but.

 

The author of the dissertation and the creators of the power point all acknowledge limits of their research. An ordinary reader (I am no scientist) can see further limits of their research. Citing this study to refute an observation that a dog's working for a treat is not much of a discomfort, or citing it as evidence that an electric shock collar is a more effective training tool, is hardly persuasive.

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Of course there are limits to the research, there always is (i think I mentioned a limitation also). does that mean it should be dismissed in its entirety?

 

Also who says the dogs were previously exposed to e-stim but not treats?

 

Im just saying be open to properly used collars as an option in training. Im not arguing better or worse

 

 

<<<As far as the cortisol levels (not an unambiguous marker of stress>>>>

 

I do believe cortisol levels is the gold standard in measuring stress.

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Im just saying be open to properly used collars as an option in training. Im not arguing better or worse

 

 

Jim:

 

Since you've come here from another forum as backup for our overly-insistent e-collar advocate, I ask you to do one thing: consider your surroundings.

 

This is a border collie forum. People here raise, train and love border collies. Some are pets, some are performance dogs, many are working sheepdogs.

 

None of us use or advocate the use of e-collars for their training. E-collars have no place in a border collie's training regimen. Most of us abhor the very thought. Therefore it is a waste of your time and ours to come here and perpetuate this discussion. I pray you let the topic die, and confine it henceforth to forums for dogs and training methods for which e-collars are an accepted tool.

 

Good day.

 

~ Gloria

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