Help! my adopted rescue BC nips and growls!

[Laurel962]

We lost our dearly loved 12 year old border collie, Sasha, in June. The most wonderful dog I ever had or knew, sweet and lovable. Everyone adored her.

 

In July, we adopted a 5 year old rescue dog from a no kill shelter, Ladybug. She is a purebred border collie, very pretty but severely overweight when we got her. Also, her history said she was surrendered after a serious attack from 2 other dogs, which put her in the hospital. However, the shelter said she was super sweet and friendly, so we took her home.

 

She IS sweet and friendly, mostly, to US. But she hates most other people. She is fine with our 4 cats, and OK with my friends 2 small pugs, but growls at other dogs her size or bigger. We took her to see my stepdaughter's very sweet friendly chow/lab and she growled so menacingly (Ladybug has a VERY DEEP growl, like a huge mastiff, not feminine at all!) and stepdaughter's dog is TERRIFIED of her.

 

After a couple weeks, she showed her true self and starting nipping. The nipping and growling are not related. When she nips, there is NO WARNING, she is fast as lightning. First she nipped a neighbor who tripped on her leash. OK, we thought it was about the leash pull. Then she nipped a child. The nips are almost all ankle nips, very fast, and once -- then she withdraws -- they do not break the skin, but are painful. Some leave bruises.

 

Later she nipped my friend, no reason. I was right there, it was so fast I did not believe it happened until my friend took off her sock and showed me the deep indentation. Then my brother in law; he was over, the dog seemed fine, he was petting her -- then he walked through a doorway and brushed against her, she nipped the back of his calf. (He said it felt like a mousetrap snapping shut.)

 

I should say here, after adopting her we found two things the shelter either hid or did not know about: her ears have so many scars, it is like they were shredded and a skilled vet sewed them back together. WIth her long BC fur, you can't see this, but you can feel it. They don't hurt her and look fine, but some AWFUL injury and attack happened, no idea when. More than a year ago. And examining her mouth, I noticed all four incisors are blunted, almost like someone ground the tips down. After her nips, it struck me it might have been because of her biting, it hurts and maybe someone thought this would help????

 

 

Anyhow, we are in anguish over this. It was devastating to lose our adored baby girl this summer, without much warning and so young. And to get used to ANY new dog, so hard. But I never dreamed we had taken in such a troubled animal, and we are miserable, we can't take her anywhere, everyone is afraid of her. We are terrified of being sued, of her biting a child. We had a "biter" years ago, a small terrier, and we were sued, and it was a living hell, the constant worry and fear.

 

We never had that with our BC, so we stupidly thought they were all gentle, wonderful, playful, loving and friendly. I realize now we made a mistake taking an older rescue dog, not knowing her background and we didn't do enough to judge her temperament. Frankly, I would not have taken her if I had known she was a biter. I could deal with a lot of stuff, housebreaking or pulling while walking, but biting is so impossible to treat. And nobody sues you because your dog pulls on the leash!

 

Other than that; a good diet and lots of exercise, and she has lost 20 lbs and looks wonderful. She is housebroken, though just lately she has had some accidents. No idea why. She is walked frequently. She has a low energy level for a BC, and her default position is flopped on her belly, her head on the floor. This is the position she lunges and nips from too. She walks OK on an loose leash. She does not bark excessively. She is very affectionate to my husband and me, BUT if he hugs or kisses me, she growls at him. She also nipped ME the other day when I was combing burrs out of her tail; I was really shocked at that.

 

We took her to a trainer, after a long search of many in our area. Some would not work with her or said "you can't stop a BC from nipping ankles, it is inbred". We finally got a lady who was highly recommended, and very nice -- we drove over an hour each way to see her, and $75 a session. She did a little clicker training, and then tried to provoke the nipping/growling, and got scared the dog would bite HER, and basically refused to continue. So, $225 wasted completely. She referred us to a "dog psychiatrist (behaviorist vet)", but it is crazy expensive, like $700 for the work up and then $185 an hour after. I was told they give the dogs Prozac and Xanax for their "anxiety". This would likely be for the rest of her life.

 

Also to get her a muzzle, which we did (Baskerville, expensive) just to protect others and not get us sued.

 

We are miserable and don't know what to do. I hated having a dog that was a biter, and never dreamed it would happen again. Our BC was so loving and sweet, we traveled all over the country with her, everyone adored her, children would come up and hug her -- I want that back! I miss it so much. She was so gentle, the tiniest toddler could grab her tail, and she'd NEVER EVER have nipped, never. We trusted her 100%.

 

Is there any hope for Ladybug? She is already five. We do feel bad, she WAS abused and it is probably not her fault, but this is just the worst behavior problem, and it will radically change our lives, already we cannot have people over, cannot let her play with children, cannot DREAM of traveling with her.

 

When I have asked for help elsewhere, I am treated like a bad owner, really cruel, giving up on her, etc. OR I am advised to rehome her, or even have her put down.

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, I desperately need advice here!!!!

[Jim Kling]

I would try to find a sheepherding trainer. Not to herd sheep, necessarily, though if she has the inclination it might be good for her.

 

Rather, because the nipping sounds like herding behavior. Forget the doggy psychiatrist stuff. A good trainer who deals with working dogs is your best bet. Describe the issues to him/her and see what they have to say.

[mbc1963]

I'm so sorry you find yourself in this position.

 

At this point, it sounds like you're in way over your head. My first instinct in response to you post (which is desperate sounding!), was to advise you to bring her back to the shelter. It's possible they did not know her real history when they adopted her to you, but it seems like you are finding it out quite quickly, as she becomes comfortable. As someone who adopted a dog with issues (fear and reactivity, rather than outright aggression), I know what it's like to find yourself overwhelmed and not knowing where to turn. And I'm sensitive to the fact that not all dogs in shelters are good candidates for pet life, due to past history or aggression. (In your dog's case, for example, what caused the vicious attack that put her in the hospital? Was she part of a dog-fighting operation, with her shredded ears? Why does she growl so much at other dogs? Is it the expectation that she's going to be attacked?) Seems like the person who adopts a dog, and then finds out quickly that the dog has serious issues, is left holding a bag of blame and guilt.

 

So - you say twice that your family is "miserable" about having this dog. Is it worth it to you, to possibly go through more years of misery and still possibly have to put the dog down, if she bites someone? Emotionally, it feels horrible to think about giving up on a dog, but logically, not all dogs can be saved. How much are you willing to go through for the sake of this dog, who might be very troubled?

 

On the other hand, my dog had all the appearance of aggression when I got him. (Barking, growling, outright fighting other dogs.) I stumbled on a good trainer who said my dog was fearful, not aggressive, and over the course of a year or more, I worked slowly with him until he could be out in public and act relatively normal. Over the next seven years, we've come such a long way, it's hard to believe he's the same dog. But, my interactions with him and other people and dogs are always planned and cautious. I don't put him in situations that will set him off (lots of loose dogs playing, lots of commotion with humans he doesn't know). With care and understanding, I can manage his life and keep him safe and happy. He's not the life of the party, and never will be. He'll never be the dog that "everybody loves." But he's well-adjusted, happy in his daily life, and very, very loving to me. More importantly, he's predictable: I can say with certainty how he'll react in a given situation, which allows him to stay alive.

 

If you want to keep this dog, and make that decision, I'd say you should start out by NOT assuming your dog can succeed in any given situation: meeting dogs, having kids around, going into Petsmart. Stand back a way from any challenge, and learn your dog. If she growls, she's not a worse dog than she was before that moment - she's just a dog you know better. You see what triggers her. Figure out if she's aggressive or just reacting out of fear. If it's the latter, you can work on desensitization. (There are gigantic threads in this forum about these specific issues, telling owners' experiences, successes, and failures. I'm sure someone will find a link to one of those threads, and post it here.)

 

Find the RIGHT trainer who has experience with this sort of thing. A trainer who's scared your dog might bite her - that's not a good match.

 

In the end, the dog might be too damaged to be a family pet. There's no easy answer. It's a dreadful responsibility, taking on a dog with good intentions, and then being judged because of all the baggage the dog has.

 

Mary

[G. Festerling]

I have to agree with the post above.

I despise giving up on any animal. But some situations are just simply almost not workable.

With your past history, this maybe one of those. I can hardly judge from a distance.

 

Having said that, my first impression also is maybe bad nerves. Fear or wrong socialization? A trainer that will attempt to provoke and then back out? Yeah...not so much...not what I would call appropriate.

 

Her teeth? I have a GSD (and some of my Borders too but my big girl is much worse) that simply wore because of constantly carrying rocks and sticks. Yes, she is obsessive. I know of at least one dog that wore his canines down to nothing, being stuck in a kennel out of pure boredom. Could your girl be a dog that was left to her own devices and simply be undersocialized?

 

If fear, bad or no socialization then of course a total change in lifestyle are the reasons for her behavior that may still not change much because of your apprehension.

 

But a good trainer (and yes, seems like they are not that easy to find especially with aggression issues) should be able to tell you. There has to be someone around that has a good sound foundation and skills.

 

Best of luck to you and your girl. Sounds like you guys need it.

[Liz P]

Also, her history said she was surrendered after a serious attack from 2 other dogs, which put her in the hospital. However, the shelter said she was super sweet and friendly, so we took her home.

 

This is an event that some dogs (and people!) will never forget. I personally own a dog who suffered severe PTSD after being attacked by loose bully breed dogs. He has been a major project over many years time. To be completely honest, had I known what I know now, I wouldn't do it again. Rehabbing him has been emotionally and physically exhausting, cost me many thousands of dollars and altered the way I have had to live my life.

 

We took her to see my stepdaughter's very sweet friendly chow/lab and she growled so menacingly (Ladybug has a VERY DEEP growl, like a huge mastiff, not feminine at all!) and stepdaughter's dog is TERRIFIED of her.

 

She was probably growling because she was afraid of your sister's dog. It doesn't matter that she was friendly. Dogs with a history like hers may never be comfortable around other dogs. My own dog will growl/bark/lunge at anything even remotely resembling a pit bull. It's all fear (self defense).

 

Later she nipped my friend, no reason. I was right there, it was so fast I did not believe it happened until my friend took off her sock and showed me the deep indentation.

 

There is always a reason, you just missed something that happened. This isn't meant as an insult. Dog behavior and body language is truly a foreign language that takes many years to master. Even then, most people still can't see the subtle nuances.

 

I should say here, after adopting her we found two things the shelter either hid or did not know about: her ears have so many scars, it is like they were shredded and a skilled vet sewed them back together. WIth her long BC fur, you can't see this, but you can feel it. They don't hurt her and look fine, but some AWFUL injury and attack happened, no idea when. More than a year ago. And examining her mouth, I noticed all four incisors are blunted, almost like someone ground the tips down. After her nips, it struck me it might have been because of her biting, it hurts and maybe someone thought this would help????

 

Maybe her ears are scarred from the attack, but more likely they are scarred down from an aural hematoma (which could have resulted from the attack or a severe ear infection).

 

Many, many Border Collies have flatted teeth from chewing toys, especially tennis balls, or chewing crate doors or other objects. I seriously doubt anyone ground her teeth down.

 

Other than that; a good diet and lots of exercise, and she has lost 20 lbs and looks wonderful. She is housebroken, though just lately she has had some accidents. No idea why. She is walked frequently. She has a low energy level for a BC, and her default position is flopped on her belly, her head on the floor.

 

Being hypothyroid is a common trigger for aggression in Border Collies. All those symptoms could be related. I would suggest a full thyroid panel and urine sample.

 

She also nipped ME the other day when I was combing burrs out of her tail; I was really shocked at that.

 

Why are you shocked? It probably hurt!

 

We took her to a trainer, after a long search of many in our area. Some would not work with her or said "you can't stop a BC from nipping ankles, it is inbred".

 

Bullshit.

 

She referred us to a "dog psychiatrist (behaviorist vet)", but it is crazy expensive, like $700 for the work up and then $185 an hour after. I was told they give the dogs Prozac and Xanax for their "anxiety". This would likely be for the rest of her life.

 

That is your best option if you want to keep her. I think you got a biased opinion of what will happen. Their primary goal is to work out a training and behavior modification plan to fit your household. Meds are not supposed to be used lifelong; I would say the average is a few years. I will be honest that my dog is still on medications 5 years later, but he was/is a very severe case (nightmares, flash backs, the whole terrible PTSD experience).

 

Is there any hope for Ladybug? She is already five. We do feel bad, she WAS abused and it is probably not her fault, but this is just the worst behavior problem, and it will radically change our lives, already we cannot have people over, cannot let her play with children, cannot DREAM of traveling with her.

 

There is hope, but like I said, you should expect to invest a lot of time and emotional energy into her over a period of many years with no guarantee of a successful outcome.

 

When I have asked for help elsewhere, I am treated like a bad owner, really cruel, giving up on her, etc. OR I am advised to rehome her, or even have her put down.

 

You are not a bad owner, but you are in over your head. I see three options here. 1) Invest in her and go to a veterinary behaviorist. 2) Find a rescue that is able and willing to take her and work with her (not likely given her history, and you must be honest!). 3) Humane euthanasia.

 

My own dog would have been euthanized had he been a biter. He has never even left a bruise on a person and the worst he has done to another dog is a body slam.

[urge to herd]

Laurel,

 

Thank you for coming here and asking these questions. This is a nasty, painful situation for you all. Please consider the options that Liz P and a couple others have laid out, they are the only ones. You definitely need to take into account the emotional cost to your family.

 

What you were told about vet behaviorists is absolute bs. A vet behaviorist does cost more money than other vets. All specialists do. Many, many vet behaviorists will have you fill out a complete behavioral/physical history, perhaps even videotape your dog, before you come in. Often they make recommendations that you follow for a while, then you report back via email or phone. Adjustments in the treatment might follow. It's not a weekly visit for months. You can discuss this ahead of time before you even see the vet.

 

Medications - as Liz said, it's frequently a matter of a couple years, as you work on behavior. Like Liz's dog, my girl Shoshone needed to be on medication for her lifetime. And it made a world of difference for her.

 

Finally, a veterinary behaviorist is also the best chance you have of an honest evaluation of whether or not proper care and a stable home can make enough of a difference for your dog. If she were mine, I'd definitely take her to a vet behaviorist.

 

If you can tell us in what general area you live, someone might be able to suggest a good vet. If you're near a veterinary school, within a few hours drive, give them a call and see if they've got a behavior department.

 

Good luck, and please let us know how you get on.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[gcv-border]

I think you have received excellent posts here. Having worked in rescue for a short time and reading many posts here, I have learned that 'evaluating' dogs in shelters can be a crapshoot. If I wanted to be more certain about a dog's personality, adopting from a foster situation is much better because the foster parent can provide a much better description of the dog in a more 'normal' home environment. This is not to say that you were wrong to adopt from a shelter, but to suggest a route when considering where to obtain your next dog.

 

Your post certainly does describe your painful situation, and I completely sympathize although I have never had a dog quite that bad. (My current 15 year old Sheltie mix - from a shelter - can be a bit tenuous, but is manageable.) Your dog certainly sounds extremely fearful. A trainer that deals specifically with fear aggressive dogs would be more appropriate than a clicker trainer. The behavioral vet suggestion may also have to be implemented.

 

All that said, you do have to make the hard decision if you want to put the energy, time and $$ into this dog. If it was me, before I made a final decision, I would try to get an evaluation from a knowledgeable dog behaviorist (not a trainer) to see if I could pin down what would be in the future as far as training, expectations, time required and lifestyle.

 

Jovi

[rushdoggie]

My heart breaks for you, it sounds like you are really stressed out.

 

You are not a bad owner, but you are in over your head. I see three options here. 1) Invest in her and go to a veterinary behaviorist. 2) Find a rescue that is able and willing to take her and work with her (not likely given her history, and you must be honest!). 3) Humane euthanasia.

 

I agree with this advise, and the idea that she is fear aggressive. If you don't feel you can work with her, I think its really understandable. I don't think it would make you a bad owner, but instead a responsible one who ended up with a dog with serious issues and did the hard but right thing. When you end up with a dog who has real issues, it can be so upsetting and stressful.

 

I am seeing a vet behaviorist, and it was darn expensive (although not nearly as expensive as what you were quoted, maybe it would be worth shopping around) but I knew I was in over my head and needed help (and I have more than 20 years experience training dogs). Meds may indeed be helpful, and a dog that is afraid can be in a place where learning is impossible and the meds can allow her to break through that and learn.

 

I'm glad you are reaching out for support.

[Laurel962]

He has been a major project over many years time. To be completely honest, had I known what I know now, I wouldn't do it again. Rehabbing him has been emotionally and physically exhausting, cost me many thousands of dollars and altered the way I have had to live my life.

 

 

 

Well, that's my dilemma in a nutshell. Most of the advice I have had is either heartless (put her down) or as you say here: "spend thousands of dollars and totally change your lifestyle, with no hope of anything getting better".

 

 

 

 

She was probably growling because she was afraid of your sister's dog.

 

 

That may be it, BUT Ladybug is fine with small dogs, even my neighbor's tiny teacup Yorkie. And I have 4 cats, she is OK with them -- curious, sometimes jealous but no aggression. They often snooze together on the bed.

 

 

There is always a reason, you just missed something that happened. This isn't meant as an insult. Dog behavior and body language is truly a foreign language that takes many years to master. Even then, most people still can't see the subtle nuances.

 

 

I am sure you are correct. I am NOT a dog trainer or psychologist (nor do I wish to be). I was talking with a friend, the dog was lying peacefully -- I had no reason to think she was about to bite!

 

My friend was wearing "fuzzy slippers" and I think that was a stimulant, but even so -- IMHO, a normal dog does not bite anyone EVER without provocation.

 

 

 

Maybe her ears are scarred from the attack, but more likely they are scarred down from an aural hematoma (which could have resulted from the attack or a severe ear infection).

 

 

No, it is pretty clear from examining her ears, they were torn to pieces, then reconstructed. You can see clearly how they were pieced back together. Her ears now are probably smaller than her original ears, though the vet did an excellent job and under the fur, you can't see the scars. At worst, it looks like she has slightly smallish ears.

 

 

 

 

Many, many Border Collies have flatted teeth from chewing toys, especially tennis balls, or chewing crate doors or other objects. I seriously doubt anyone ground her teeth down.

 

 

I wondered about this, and asked a number of people including my vet, and the trainer, and they didn't know. The incisors are flattened on top, all the same and very precisely -- not broken or irregular as I would expect from chewing or an accident.

 

 

 

 

Being hypothyroid is a common trigger for aggression in Border Collies. All those symptoms could be related. I would suggest a full thyroid panel and urine sample.

 

 

 

This is something we will be checking out shortly. My previous border collie developed hypothyroid the last six months of her life, but she has zero symptoms even before she was put on thyroxine. Absolutely NO aggression of any kind!!!!

 

She also nipped ME the other day when I was combing burrs out of her tail; I was really shocked at that.

 

Why are you shocked? It probably hurt!

 

 

No, I was very gentle. My old BC got burrs all the time, walking outside. She NEVER EVER EVER bit me.

 

 

 

That is your best option if you want to keep her. I think you got a biased opinion of what will happen. Their primary goal is to work out a training and behavior modification plan to fit your household. Meds are not supposed to be used lifelong; I would say the average is a few years. I will be honest that my dog is still on medications 5 years later, but he was/is a very severe case (nightmares, flash backs, the whole terrible PTSD experience).

 

 

Well, I talked to the vet tech at the Behavioral Veterinary clinic, and they said "for life". They also do behavior training, but rely on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds.

 

It is also so costly, that frankly I cannot afford it. They offer no guarantees.

 

My experience of both trainers and behaviors is very bleak. They could not help my first dog, and NOT ONE OF THEM (including 3 vets) figured out her real problem was she was dying of kidney failure (1996-2001).

 

 

 

 

There is hope, but like I said, you should expect to invest a lot of time and emotional energy into her over a period of many years with no guarantee of a successful outcome.

 

 

Thanks, but frankly, that is THE VERY DEFINITION of "hopeless".

 

 

 

You are not a bad owner, but you are in over your head. I see three options here. 1) Invest in her and go to a veterinary behaviorist. 2) Find a rescue that is able and willing to take her and work with her (not likely given her history, and you must be honest!). 3) Humane euthanasia.

 

My own dog would have been euthanized had he been a biter. He has never even left a bruise on a person and the worst he has done to another dog is a body slam.

 

 

I appreciate your honesty, but frankly, you are saying it is hopeless.

 

The specialists would cost upwards of $2000 and that is conservative (initially -- much more over her lifespan).

 

No rescue will touch her with a 10 foot pole, because she is a biter. That's the ONE THING they won't touch because of the legal liability.

 

As for "just euthanize her!" -- well, a couple years ago I had a DYING 19 year old cat, and even so, no vet would euthanize her because "we won't just put an animal down to convenience you!"

 

I can only imagine what they would say if I brought in a beautiful, healthy 5 year old purebred dog.

 

So when you say "put her down", the reality is I would have to first abandon her to a "high kill" shelter, let her suffer for days or weeks in a cage -- terrified and lonely -- then put down by strangers, in a high stress, wretched circumstance.

 

Could you do that to a dog? A dog who sleeps next to you? A dog your husband loves?

[Laurel962]

Thank you for coming here and asking these questions. This is a nasty, painful situation for you all. Please consider the options that Liz P and a couple others have laid out, they are the only ones. You definitely need to take into account the emotional cost to your family

 

 

Well -- you were one of my last options. I admit, I am shocked and somewhat taken aback that the general response is "it's hopeless, put her down".

I find it hard to accept that is the "only option".

 

 

What you were told about vet behaviorists is absolute bs. A vet behaviorist does cost more money than other vets. All specialists do. Many, many vet behaviorists will have you fill out a complete behavioral/physical history, perhaps even videotape your dog, before you come in. Often they make recommendations that you follow for a while, then you report back via email or phone. Adjustments in the treatment might follow. It's not a weekly visit for months. You can discuss this ahead of time before you even see the vet.

 

 

 

I HAVE talked to them extensively (behavioral vet -- i.e., not a trainer, a real vet who specializes ONLY in behavior problems). It is not just "more money,", it is thousands of dollars.

 

No, they do their own videotaping and don't want you to do it. They do recommend training and desensitization, but without any guarantees. It is not a weekly visit, but a weekly call in and visits about once a month for the first six months.

 

The cost is higher than a real human psychiatrist!

 

In case you are thinking "she's a cheapskate!" -- I had huge medical expenses for my old BC who died in June...cremation expenses, too. Then the adoption fees for Ladybug and travel out of town to pick her up. Then she got sick (food poisoning) in August, so hundreds for THAT. Then her trainer, who booted us out -- hundreds more.

 

Maybe you guys are wealthy or something, but for an average person, this is a fortune, and I am NOT rich.

 

 

Medications - as Liz said, it's frequently a matter of a couple years, as you work on behavior. Like Liz's dog, my girl Shoshone needed to be on medication for her lifetime. And it made a world of difference for her.

 

 

Well, you guys say this, and then say "its' for life....oh, and if I'd know this up front, I would have put the dog down, it's going to wreck your family and so on".

Put yourself in my shoes -- it is VERY DISCOURAGING.

 

 

 

Finally, a veterinary behaviorist is also the best chance you have of an honest evaluation of whether or not proper care and a stable home can make enough of a difference for your dog. If she were mine, I'd definitely take her to a vet behaviorist.

 

 

Well several people are saying "euthanize her", without much consideration of what that means -- NO VET IN MY AREA WILL EUTHANIZE A HEALTHY YOUNG DOG.

 

So I'd have to leave her at a high kill shelter, let her spend 2 wretched weeks terrified and alone and put to sleep by total strangers.

 

I wonder how many of you could really do that.

 

 

 

If you can tell us in what general area you live, someone might be able to suggest a good vet. If you're near a veterinary school, within a few hours drive, give them a call and see if they've got a behavior department.

 

 

I live on the east side (suburbs) of Cleveland, Ohio.

 

We have a Behavioral vet here, Dr. Feltes. She is very expensive. Even if I could afford it, she has no openings until next year anyhow.

 

The nearest vet college is Ohio State University, in Columbus -- 2.5 hours away. There is a behaviorist there, but she ONLY consults with other vets, and will not take on private patients. I already checked.

[Laurel962]

My heart breaks for you, it sounds like you are really stressed out.

 

Thanks and I am sure you are sincere, but it AWFUL to come to a breed specific site, and be told "put your dog down".

 

 

So let me clarify: SHE NIPS. She does not bite in the sense of tearing skin or bleeding. Now, I know if someone got nipped and sued me, that would not mean anything legally.

 

But for gods sake, it would be putting this dog to death for a NIP that does not even break the skin. I don't know that I can do this, morally, as a decent dog owner.

 

 

 

I agree with this advise, and the idea that she is fear aggressive. If you don't feel you can work with her, I think its really understandable. I don't think it would make you a bad owner, but instead a responsible one who ended up with a dog with serious issues and did the hard but right thing. When you end up with a dog who has real issues, it can be so upsetting and stressful.

 

 

I have no doubt she is fearful. I have no doubt she was attacked at least twice in her life.

 

I have no doubt that whoever owned her mistreated and neglected her.

 

It is horribly upsetting. In the past 16 years, I had a dog I raised from a 9 week puppy, a mixed breed (so no abuse at all) and she was a REAL biter, as in ripping flesh and bleeding. Only at her death, did we realize she had congenital kidney failure and was probably in pain her whole short life.

 

Then I had the most wonderful, lovable, sweet charming border collie in the world for 11 years. It restored my faith in my own ability as a dog owner, and made me love border collies.

 

So this is like the world crashing down on me, and breaking my heart.

 

I've tried so hard, despite my terrible grief, and what I get is "put your young healthy dog down".

[Laurel962]

I think you have received excellent posts here.

 

 

I have no doubt that all of you are wonderful, loving successful border collie owners and your cumulative wisdom dwarfs my 11 years with ONE border collie.

 

I am just depressed and heartbroken that what I am hearing is "spend several thousand dollars you don't have and can't afford, on a behavioral vet -- then have your healthy young dog put to sleep".

 

 

Having worked in rescue for a short time and reading many posts here, I have learned that 'evaluating' dogs in shelters can be a crapshoot. If I wanted to be more certain about a dog's personality, adopting from a foster situation is much better because the foster parent can provide a much better description of the dog in a more 'normal' home environment. This is not to say that you were wrong to adopt from a shelter, but to suggest a route when considering where to obtain your next dog.

 

 

My last dog, Sasha, came from a hellhole -- the county dog warden ("dog catcher") in the inner city of Cleveland. If there is a worse place, I have never seen it. Think: Calcutta, India.

 

It is like the waiting station for hell.

 

I paid $11 for her, which included the dog license.

 

She was the best dog I have ever had, or ever known.

 

 

Yes, obviously it is a crapshoot.

 

 

I looked everywhere for a BC, and this was what I was able to find. It wasn't even a question of looks. It was like "this is the only female border collie under 8 years of age, within a 300 mile radius of your home".

 

There were no dogs in "foster care". What there is, are two border collie rescues. At the time, neither of them had a young female I could have adopted.

 

 

A trainer that deals specifically with fear aggressive dogs would be more appropriate than a clicker trainer. The behavioral vet suggestion may also have to be implemented.

 

 

 

I did a very exhaustive search in September, talked to 20 trainers of ALL kinds (shock collar, clicker, behaviorist (non-vet), choke chain, Cesar Milan-type) and got dozens of recommendations, and had a lot of shall we say, interesting experiences (happy to share, but don't want to get off topic!) and in the end, got a HIGHLY HIGHLY recommended, licensed trainer who SPECIALIZED (so she said) in aggression, biting, shelter dogs, and reactive behavior -- and SHE bailed on me after 3 sessions. She was clearly scared of being bitten, and her whole training consisted of standard clicker training (so I didn't see how that would stop nipping or growling anyways).

 

She also told me, as a licensed trainer, she had to REPORT every bite (even a small nip) and that would have given Ladybug a "bite history" -- meaning, my insurance company would drop me, and if she EVER nipped ANYONE again, it would mean immediate euthanasia by the county (after 2 terrifying weeks in quarantine).

[juliepoudrier]

No vet would be willing to put down a beautiful, healthy dog. A dog who bites is by definition not a beautiful healthy dog. It is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

And FWIW, at every shelter I know, owner turn ins don't have to be held any length of time; they can be euthanized immediately. And if you tell the shelter she's bitten on more than one occasion, you can rest assured that they are not going to let her languish for days or months. She will be PTS immediately.

 

J.

[rushdoggie]

My heart breaks for you, it sounds like you are really stressed out.

 

Thanks and I am sure you are sincere, but it AWFUL to come to a breed specific site, and be told "put your dog down".

 

 

So let me clarify: SHE NIPS. She does not bite in the sense of tearing skin or bleeding. Now, I know if someone got nipped and sued me, that would not mean anything legally.

 

But for gods sake, it would be putting this dog to death for a NIP that does not even break the skin. I don't know that I can do this, morally, as a decent dog owner.

 

 

 

I agree with this advise, and the idea that she is fear aggressive. If you don't feel you can work with her, I think its really understandable. I don't think it would make you a bad owner, but instead a responsible one who ended up with a dog with serious issues and did the hard but right thing. When you end up with a dog who has real issues, it can be so upsetting and stressful.

 

 

I have no doubt she is fearful. I have no doubt she was attacked at least twice in her life.

 

I have no doubt that whoever owned her mistreated and neglected her.

 

It is horribly upsetting. In the past 16 years, I had a dog I raised from a 9 week puppy, a mixed breed (so no abuse at all) and she was a REAL biter, as in ripping flesh and bleeding. Only at her death, did we realize she had congenital kidney failure and was probably in pain her whole short life.

 

Then I had the most wonderful, lovable, sweet charming border collie in the world for 11 years. It restored my faith in my own ability as a dog owner, and made me love border collies.

 

So this is like the world crashing down on me, and breaking my heart.

 

I've tried so hard, despite my terrible grief, and what I get is "put your young healthy dog down".

 

I think your stress and grief are causing you to read responses through a filter. I am going to try to be gentle with you, but you need to take a step back and consider your circumstances and your story.

 

You came here and are horribly upset because the dog you adopted it showing aggression and you don't know how to deal with it.

 

A nip *is* a bite. Its a inhibited bite, but its a bite. And without help, she is likely to bite again, and possibly break the skin and injure someone. Dogs that bite, even if its because they are afraid are aggressive and a legal and moral liability to their owner.

 

You don't know how to fix her fear, you have tried to work with a trainer who wasn't able to help you. You cannot afford a behavioral vet (which is understandable and doesn't make you a bad person) and seem unhappy with the idea of meds.

 

This leaves you with the choices of finding additional help, living with your fearful nipping dog and risking a more serious bite, or euthanizing her.

 

I've tried so hard, despite my terrible grief, and what I get is "put your young healthy dog down".

 

I think you have been given some options, and euthanizing her is one of them. I don;t think its really quite fair to say that all you have been given is advice to euthanize your dog. That's just not true.

 

I guess I am not sure what kind of advice you expected when you came here, but there's no magic panacea that any of us can offer you. Its nearly impossible to give reasonable dog training advice for this kind of situation based on posts here. A person really needs to see the dog, its reaction, how you handle her, etc.

 

I know you had a bad experience with a trainer, but if you were to be more specific about where you live you might get some referrals for recommendations. You may also check into more options, my behavioral vet charged far, far less than what the one you talked to did. So saying its not feasible may not be true if you find a different option. But you have to open to that.

 

Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. You say you are so very discouraged, but then you "yeah but" every single thing that has been suggested here. Your responses are so very negative and angry, I can't help but hurt for you. But its impossible to help you when you are already so closed to the options presented to you. I think you are grieving for the dog you lost, the dog you wanted and the dog that might have been right along with the stress about the dog you have now.

 

I know EXACTLY how you feel. I have a dog who I was very concerned would bite someone too, a dog I dreamed about for several years and waited for with such anticipation. As it turns out he has major issues and he dreams I had for him are gone, and I have to put so much work into making him NOT a liability. I love him dearly, and he loves us, but the reality is he could bite someone.

 

So I am spending the money to see a behaviorist, do the follow up, keep him on his meds for a while to see if I can rewire his brain and hoping for the best. Its all you can do, too.

 

And you know, as much as it would break my heart, as much as it would tear me up inside, if I reach the point where I believe that he cannot be safe, I will do what has to be done. I don't want to, but I will. He can be as young, beautiful and physically fit as I want him to be, but if I can't trust he won't bite someone I will do it.

 

And, FWIW, I don't think I have ever met a vet who would not euthanize a young healthy dog who had serious behavioral problems and was a bite risk. If my vet refused to do so (and I hope you have been talking with your vet and he or she knows already the dog has issues) I would find a new vet.

[Liz P]

Well, that's my dilemma in a nutshell. Most of the advice I have had is either heartless (put her down) or as you say here: "spend thousands of dollars and totally change your lifestyle, with no hope of anything getting better".

 

That's your quote, not mine. Don't put words in my mouth. I said there was no guarantee of success, not that there was no hope.

 

If people didn't do something unless they were guaranteed to succeed no one would have climbed Mount Everest, walked on the moon, flown the first airplane, discovered countless life saving drugs, etc. Life doesn't really have any guarantees. You can either accept that and move on or crumple into a little ball and cry. Personally, I love life. It's unpredictable and at times downright hard, but it's also fun and beautiful and amazing.

 

That may be it, BUT Ladybug is fine with small dogs, even my neighbor's tiny teacup Yorkie. And I have 4 cats, she is OK with them -- curious, sometimes jealous but no aggression. They often snooze together on the bed.

 

And your point is? So what if she is fine with little dogs? Maybe it is only dogs of her same size or larger that scare her. I know dogs that are only afraid of German Shepherds. Some are only afraid of medium sized black dogs. For others it's anything big and fluffy, men in ball caps, children with balloons.

 

My friend was wearing "fuzzy slippers" and I think that was a stimulant, but even so -- IMHO, a normal dog does not bite anyone EVER without provocation.

 

Define provocation. It's different for each dog. Maybe you didn't see something you felt was adequate to trigger a bite, but your dog sure did. Of course, it doesn't sound like your dog is normal, so what provokes her is probably not a normal trigger.

 

And BTW, every dog will bite if the right buttons are pushed.

 

No, it is pretty clear from examining her ears, they were torn to pieces, then reconstructed. You can see clearly how they were pieced back together. Her ears now are probably smaller than her original ears, though the vet did an excellent job and under the fur, you can't see the scars. At worst, it looks like she has slightly smallish ears.

 

When an ear scars down from an aural hematoma it has wrinkles that look like suture lines. The process also causes the ears to sort of shrink. Unless you actually found the sutures or have a vet report saying this is what happened, I really doubt your theory is correct. I am not a betting person and I would bet some big money that your dogs ears were not torn to shreds and sewn back together.

 

I wondered about this, and asked a number of people including my vet, and the trainer, and they didn't know. The incisors are flattened on top, all the same and very precisely -- not broken or irregular as I would expect from chewing or an accident.

 

Yeah, it's possible, but not likely. Most of the dogs I see who gradually wear down their teeth manage to do so quit evenly.

 

Thanks, but frankly, that is THE VERY DEFINITION of "hopeless".

 

No it's not. Again, I said no guarantee of success, not that you had no hope of succeeding.

 

I appreciate your honesty, but frankly, you are saying it is hopeless.

 

Nope, still not saying it's hopeless, but you sure are.

 

The specialists would cost upwards of $2000 and that is conservative (initially -- much more over her lifespan).

 

I've heard that before from other people who use it as an excuse to not seek treatment, but I have never actually seen anyone's bill get that high. Generally you are looking at about $300 to $500 for the initial consult. Why don't you try VetFax or PetFax offered by Tufts?

 

I spent big bucks not on the behavior appointments, but on moving to a house where I could get my dog away from his triggers (higher rent) and sending him on "vacation" to a trainer when my schedule wouldn't allow me to devote enough time to his needs.

 

Meds are cheap. I think I spend about $8 a month on my dogs pills.

 

No rescue will touch her with a 10 foot pole, because she is a biter. That's the ONE THING they won't touch because of the legal liability.

 

and then...

 

So let me clarify: SHE NIPS. She does not bite in the sense of tearing skin or bleeding. Now, I know if someone got nipped and sued me, that would not mean anything legally.

 

Nipping is just a type of biting. You are absolutely correct that she could have done much more damage, but it is still a bite. Clearly you can't have a dog that is biting people, not in our society where people sue each other at the drop of a hat. It may very well be possible to rehab her with time, patience and lots of work. From your above posts it doesn't look like you want to do that. What else do you expect us to say when you tell us that you are unable or unwilling to put the work into her? Do you want someone to play the hero, swoop in and take her off your hands?

 

So when you say "put her down", the reality is I would have to first abandon her to a "high kill" shelter, let her suffer for days or weeks in a cage -- terrified and lonely -- then put down by strangers, in a high stress, wretched circumstance.

 

No, you tell the vet she bites, is a liability and needs to be put down. There are plenty who will sympathize and help you out if that is what you ultimately choose to do.

 

Well -- you were one of my last options. I admit, I am shocked and somewhat taken aback that the general response is "it's hopeless, put her down".

I find it hard to accept that is the "only option".

 

Again, people are NOT saying this, YOU are.

 

Put yourself in my shoes -- it is VERY DISCOURAGING.

 

I've BEEN in your shoes. Hell, I am currently in them! So don't tell me I don't know what you are going through. If euthanasia is not an option for you then step up to the plate, educate yourself and dig in the for the long haul. You do have a choice and each option has pros and cons.

 

Try www.dogstardaily.com for good training tips.

 

Read this.

 

Join the Aggressive Behavior in Dogs chat group for advice.

[Gloria Atwater]

 

No, you tell the vet she bites, is a liability and needs to be put down. There are plenty who will sympathize and help you out if that is what you ultimately choose to do.....

 

 

FWIW, I think she's saying the vets in her area are not inclined that way. Note she said, she had a 19 year old dying cat that they refused to put down. I can't even imagine a vet that would not help me with a terminally ill animal.

 

So, it would seem that, in her area at least, she is faced with vets who are reluctant to employ euthanasia for what one might consider reasonable situations. Unless someone can direct her to a vet in her area who handles such things for dire behavioral problems, I don't think we should assume one exists.

 

I feel so terrible for this poor lady.

 

~ Gloria

[Cynthia P]

There are good resources that you can work with. I have had three aggressive dogs. One was managed (she was a livestock guardian dog) and put away, tied up when we couldn't be sure she could be trusted when people were around. The others never bit anyone, but there was intent. I did a lot of desensitization and management. They weren't put in situations where they could agress.

 

The worst bite I had was breaking up a dog fight and the puppy (that was being attacked) bit me. My husband was bit by my open trialling dog when she got caught in an electric fence. All dogs, given the right provocation, will bite.

 

You said you were shocked when you took burrs out of your dog and she nipped you. LOTS of dogs don't like that. My husband owned a grooming shop for quite some time and there are many dogs that don't like X: feet trimmed, ears clipped, belly clipped, tail brushed etc. Just because your last dog didn't mind being tugged on etc doesn't mean this one is comfortable with it.

 

Look up calming signals in dogs. You can start to see stress signs, such as yawning, drooling, panting, lip licking which are indicators of stress.

 

My friend Pam Dennison adopted an aggressive border collie. I was the first one he bit, doing something I've done a million times; picking up a ball to throw it. Seems pretty simple, he liked fetch, i was doing fetch with him. He was stressed by me leaning over him. Fetch aroused him, I bent over him (which was stressful and worrying to him) he bit me in the left breast. I don't know if he gave me precursors, I was paying enough attention. Pam did tons of work with him, desensitization, training; She wrote a book called "Bringing Light to Shadow" and How to right a dog gone wrong. These are about her journey with Shadow. I'm sure they aren't expensive and it wouldn't hurt you to read those books.

 

It isn't hopeless but you will have to become a more informed trainer. You said I don't know how the clicker is going to change her behaviour towards nipping. What it will do is make you a better observer of behaviour and you will start to see the triggers.

 

Good luck with her

 

Cynthia

[ejano]

 

 

But for gods sake, it would be putting this dog to death for a NIP that does not even break the skin. I don't know that I can do this, morally, as a decent dog owner.

 

My husband's grandfather had a farm dog he named "Nipper" for obvious reasons. A working dog running on 200 acres back in the day could get away with that kind of behavior - but in today's world, in a suburban home...no way. Will you feel better about doing so after she really tears into someone? That too, could cost you thousands of dollars.

 

I feel for you - we adopted a pretty little BC girl from the pound years ago and named her Ladybug as well. She's the best dog we'll ever own, I'm sure of it. We also had one that was a bit of a nipper - for a few weeks. He settled down quickly when he was firmly told who was running the railroad - but he didn't have torn ears or filed down teeth.

 

The problem is, you're boxed in by emotion, an unwillingness/inability to seek professional help (and I understand the realities of a budget), you don't want to give her medicine, and the unwillingness to accept the harsh reality that some rescue dogs are too damaged to make good pets. Personally, I think the rescue organization let you down. They should have seen the teeth and the ears and thought -- hmmnnn...something is wrong here. Dogs who are habitual biters have their teeth filed down - or pulled. They know that - or should.

 

ETA- Liz P's suggestions about the condition of the ears warrant another trip to the vet to try put together exactly the cause of the condition. Demand some answers from the rescue organization as well. People do lie on intake forms, of course, but the organization should have taken a history from those who surrendered her - and it should be available to you. If you want this dog, you have to fight for her and not be an "autopilot" owner. You need to EXPECT reactions from her, anticipate and correct them.

 

 

You had one good suggestion at the top of the thread - find a sheepdog trainer. Sometimes nipping comes out of a herding instinct but don't bet on it with this one. Budget a certain amount of money that you feel you can afford to spend then get a recommendation from the Humane Society from which you adopted her. Have you confided in them at all? Some are very eager to help through these problems. This one may not be if they passed on a problem. If they won't own the problem, then find another rescue organization - or a vet research hospital like Cornell. I saved money by having the bloodwork done at my local (very reasonable) vet's office. Cornell is very upfront about costs so you will know what to expect. Meanwhile, you know what to do - keep her away from other dogs and other people for her sake as well as yours. The nips are warnings that something is amiss. It won't be pretty if she nips a child or her nip "indentations" turn into a full bite.

 

You made an unfortunate choice to try to fill an empty space in your life. We've all lost beloved pets - some of us have faced the same difficult decisions. Giving up on this dog would be like losing your beloved pet all over again. We have a responsibility to make wise choices for the animals in our care. Try one more time to satisfy your heart then do the right thing - for everyone, including the dog.

 

Liz

[Liz P]

FWIW, I think she's saying the vets in her area are not inclined that way. Note she said, she had a 19 year old dying cat that they refused to put down. I can't even imagine a vet that would not help me with a terminally ill animal.

 

I hear stories like this all the time. In virtually every case it turns out to be miscommunication. In many of the other cases it is people hearing something different and drawing incorrect conclusions based on what they think they heard (as the original poster has done with some of our advice).

 

I only know one vet who would refuse to put a dog down for biting. The rest will do so as long as the client is honest with them. Some will only euthanize after the client has worked with a board certified behaviorist, but they will still do it. I find it highly unlikely that there isn't a single vet in the entire state that will help her if she eventually has to make that choice.

 

I do hope that she decides to stick with Ladybug and finds a solution to make them both happy, but she has to be willing to put in the work.

[mbc1963]

I was just thinking, "This woman should read 'Bringing Light to Shadow.' " You beat me to the punch.

 

All told, I don't think anyone in here is being unkind or un-understanding or unforgiving of the dog. But it seems to me there are only a few options:

 

A) Euthanasia. Not a choice any of us would take lightly, but it eliminates the possibility that the dog will bite as well as your responsibility for that situation, should it occur. You seem to think we all recommend this thoughtlessly and cheaply, but many of us who are mentioning it have looked down the dark tunnel of that possibility ourselves. Some of us have, in the recent past, had to make that very choice.

 

B ) Live with this dog exactly as she is: a nipper, apparently a dog fearful of other dogs and (apparently) many other things. Reactive, via nipping. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to try to learn what your dog is reacting to, you don't have to put any time or energy or money into training her or working with her issues. You can just love her, and limit your and her interactions with others. She might bite someone someday, and you'll have to put her down. Plus, you might get sued. Plus, you yourself said you are "miserable" with your life as it is now.

 

C) Find an appropriate trainer and use the best possible resources available to you to work with this dog. This will require a large effort and some financial commitment. None of us are rich (unless someone's holding out on the forum!) - but the need for money in hiring experts is simply a GIVEN. In my dog's case, a good trainer was relatively local, and he helped me understand my dog so that I could do most of the necessary work myself. (And in my dog's case, a lot of the work involved getting to know my dog very, very well, and just not subjecting him to triggers without thought and consideration and a PLAN until his psyche could calm down some and start to trust the new world he was living in.) Your social interactions and canine contact will be limited, at least for a while. You will have to exercise great caution in what should seem to be "normal" situations: doggie play, pulling burrs from her fur, having her meet your friends and families, visiting the vet, walking the neighborhood, seeing a spooky thing (bike/motorcycle/scooter/large man/large dog). It took SIX MONTHS for my dog to be allowed off-leash with my sister's puppies, because I knew they were too young to mind Buddy's signals and learn when he corrected them. It took two years before I let him go to the vet without a muzzle. It took more time than that before strange men could come near him without a growl. And probably five years before he starting moving TOWARD strangers with hope that they'd maybe talk nice and give him a treat. And even now - seven years in! - I monitor his body language and back up when I see he's about to be pushed beyond his comfort level with a given situation.

 

This does not mean "hopeless." It means long-term commitment and energy. And, it means knowing you might not fix things, but then again you might. Life has no guarantees. No dog comes with a guarantee. And so, still, in the end, it could mean you are back to choice A. If my dog bit a child, I'd have him euthanized. No questions asked. But you will know that you knew the dog very well, and did your best for her.

 

So, people have suggested all possible solutions, and shared their experiences with their own dogs. If you hear suggestions and immediately put up walls and offer reasons why you, in your specific situation, can't try those suggestions, then it seems like you're limiting yourself to choice B - which is making your miserable. If any of us had a quick fix or an easy answer, we'd be making Cesar Milan-style money.

 

Mary

[beachdogz]

First of all, Laurel, thank you for rescuing. You have rescued before, and so you should know that adopting an older dog is much different than a puppy. Adopting a puppy allows you to shape behavior from the beginning. Adopting older means dealing with already-shaped behaviors. In both scenarios, you also deal with genetic characteristics, which cannot be altered.

 

No one can tell you what is best for you....they can only give you options and then you must choose which option is best for you.

 

You have had this dog since July? You must know that a dog's true personality does not come out for months after adopting. My last dog's personality started to emerge after 8 months....and he is a work in progress.

 

I am not a licensed behaviorist, nor are most people on this board. But I have found over the 37 years that I have been in dogs that breeders and dog-people know quite a lot about behavior and training and issues -- in my opinion, no license or education compares to years of raising and living with dogs. I think all the people on this board have given you the options and now you must choose.

 

Everyone's different. I would not give up after 4 months. As I stated before, I believe these dogs are works in progress. If you have chosen to keep this dog, then it is time to dig-in and start the hard work necessary to bring out the best potential this dog has; and understand that it may be a long road. However, you may also end up with the most wonderful dog years down the road. You must question, however, if you have the strength and perseverance to travel down that road.

 

Obviously, I don't know you, the dog, or the situation. But when I read "biter" and "sleeps in bed with us"....well, my first advice to anyone with a biter is "get the dog out of the bed." Not forever...just until the problem is corrected. Google NILF. Talk to other trainers; obedience instructors; vets. Read, read, read. Find something that works for you and your dog. In the meantime, MANAGE the problem. Make sure situations do not occur the MIGHT trigger the behavior. Maybe less stimulation. Maybe quiet months with you and the dog just learning and adjusting.

 

You can stay on this board forever talking about it, but there is no magic answer. You are in for the long haul...lots of hard work. We have all been there. But if you choose to truly work at this, you may find yourself with a wonderful companion for life.

 

I have not given up on your dog....have you? If not, then GET TO WORK!!! Use this forum as valuable information; pick what might work for you; and continue to search for trainers in your area who can help you.

 

I'm not going to sugarcoat it...when we adopt, we must know that we are not always going to get the Cinderella dog. That is why I love adopting. It is a challenge and is so very rewarding to WORK at bringing out the best in a dog...and changing that dog's life. If I had a biter that I TRULY believed could not be rehabilitated, I would not think twice about PTS. But...if I felt there was hope, I would do everything I could. I wish you the best. You did the right thing by coming and asking questions...continue to do so....

[rushdoggie]

 

When an ear scars down from an aural hematoma it has wrinkles that look like suture lines. The process also causes the ears to sort of shrink. Unless you actually found the sutures or have a vet report saying this is what happened, I really doubt your theory is correct. I am not a betting person and I would bet some big money that your dogs ears were not torn to shreds and sewn back together.

 

 

Yep, had a dog with the same thing and I agree with Liz. Google "aural hematoma" and look at the pictures.

 

I wondered about this, and asked a number of people including my vet, and the trainer, and they didn't know. The incisors are flattened on top, all the same and very precisely -- not broken or irregular as I would expect from chewing or an accident.

 

Yeah, it's possible, but not likely. Most of the dogs I see who gradually wear down their teeth manage to do so quit evenly.

 

Yes, frisbee and tennis balls wear down teeth just in the way you have described.

 

A quick Google search of "frisbee teeth" gave me this image

 

 

I know a lot of trainers around the country, and I might be able to find you a referral for someone new who you can talk to who might be a better choice than the trainer you worked with. Wouldn't it be worth one more try to get some help? If you are not comfortable posting your location to the main board you can send me a PM. I don't need your address, just a city/state.

[waffles]

I couldn't help but comment on the teeth topic. The photos attached are of a border collie I know who has ground down all 4 of his canine teeth down to the root (you can see all the black rings) just by pushing a hard jolly ball around for years. The photo attached was taken a few years ago and now the center is all black and they are smooth with a sharp point. No one ever filed his teeth down-people ask all the time. He was just allowed to push a jolly ball around for too long. I have seen dogs do this just from chomping a tennis ball for years.

[Gary_and_Karen]

I couldn't help but comment on the teeth topic. The photos attached are of a border collie I know who has ground down all 4 of his canine teeth down to the root (you can see all the black rings) just by pushing a hard jolly ball around for years. The photo attached was taken a few years ago and now the center is all black and they are smooth with a sharp point. No one ever filed his teeth down-people ask all the time. He was just allowed to push a jolly ball around for too long. I have seen dogs do this just from chomping a tennis ball for years.

 

Wow, I learned something new (my last dog had no interest in tennis balls or frisbees).

 

From posts in other topics it seems tennis balls, frisbees, jolly balls, are fairly popular with many pet owners, so based on the above info should we now avoid getting those toys for our pets ?

 

.....just wondering :-/

[waffles]

Wow, I learned something new (my last dog had no interest in tennis balls or frisbees).

 

From posts in other topics it seems tennis balls, frisbees, jolly balls, are fairly popular with many pet owners, so based on the above info should we now avoid getting those toys for our pets ?

 

.....just wondering :-/

No, you just have to be smart about it. Don't get them a hard jolly ball (the push-play, the bounce-play with the handles are softer) and let them push it around for way too long, years after years (my dog uses his maybe 30-45min a week, the dog in the photos does it for that long every day). Get KONG tennis balls, they're made for dogs and not as hard as actual tennis balls, frisbee's are not chew toys and should only be used to actually play with-just don't use a super hard one made for humans and crank it at their face (I assume that is how my dog broke a bunch of his front teeth in his previous home). I love the HERO brand of dog frisbees btw.