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Bonnie and Sheep II


Maja

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So here comes the first little movie after Bonnie's turned 12 months. These are two outruns shortly after the implementation of Bob's advice in "ask an expert". But it's just the beginning of it, we re not there yet. In the first outrun Bonnie's slowing down is not obvious, unless you saw her earlier outruns at mach3. The second it is very visible in the beginning, then she speeds up a little (my mistake of course).

 

The outrun is only about 75-85 yrds, the radius from the sheep is at 3/9 o'clock is least 45yrds.

 

 

And here is the main culprit:

 

P16206661.jpg

 

You probably think I am silly, but I like the fact that she usually stands before the outrun instead of lying down.

 

Maja

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Maja,

 

Are you saying "stand" in the video when she's at the top? What do you mean when you're asking her to stand? My "stand" is asking my dog to stop on its feet, and when it doesn't, I go toward my dog until they stop and then back up again and allow the dog to continue fetching the sheep to me. Correct me if I'm wrong ... it seems that Bonnie is just blowing you off when you say "stand." Do you correct her when she doesn't listen to you? What if you lied her down at the top and then asked her to quietly walk up?

 

Jodi

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I know I use stand differently than most English speakers. She does not have to stop entirely. A slow down is enough, which she does very clearly in the second outrun (and then I make the mistake in giving her "walk" which speeds her up), but not so apparently in the fist outrun, but she does slow down there too. "Stand" is very relative, I introduced it to keep lie down for "drop to the ground or else" and to encourage her to stay on her feet. Anyhow, e.g. if she is walking then a forceful "stand" would cause her to lie down, a mild "stand" would cause her to slow down.

 

On the outrun I don't want to stop her, because of the way the sheep are. If I yelled a little louder Bonnie would be likely not to slow down abut to lie down, and then there is a problem because the sheep - being in the fresh pasture - would not want to move. Bonnie does not have a great deal of power yet that would allow her to lie down and then tiptoe to the sheep, say "move now!" and move them, and I am trying to show her that a steady approach from a distance is effective.

 

So it is a real challenge for me to slow her down without stopping her, but as I wrote, we are just starting this so I think we will get somewhere.

 

Any body language involving me walking towards the sheep is also highly risky, because they are very likely to start moving towards me regardless of the dog, that's why I make longer outruns when it would have been more comfortable to make shorter ones for now.

 

Maja

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  • 2 weeks later...

Still at 12 months, here is an update on Bonnie's wearing, which improved on its own sort of. There is some music later on, but the only things I say are "comebye" and "stand" in the very beginning, and nothing all the way until we got to where we needed. This is the usual way we start working sheep, because when they see us coming they bolt to their home. Then we have to go about 300rds to get to the open pasture.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm_D_c73jE8

 

I know that not everybody likes that she lies down like that, but I think, as long as she is actually on top of things, I'd leave it alone, unless there is some deep reason to do something about it (so please let me know if you see a deep reason :) ). She walks like this when the sheep are close to me and are following me willingly, as soon as they become unwilling she moves up closer to push them. She is still unable to push the sheep by simply walking up to them with a mean look on her face when they decide to be particularly obstinate. When they are obstinate, she does quick flip-flops, and if that does not work, she adds equally quick 'snap!snap!'

 

I hope I will be able to add a vid with the outruns soon.

 

Maja

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I am glad you like d it :D . Up until this morning we hadn't done do much driving. But we went to practice on other sheep this morning, and I tried the introduction to driving - that is Bonnie and I walk behind the sheep, and I try to let Bonnie go ahead of me. She did well, I think, and I will put in a video later. The sheep were very nice to work with - very light, but not flighty. Bonnie managed to control herself even though she was so very excited.

 

But I have a bad piece of news. We brought back one of our ewes from a "date" with our old ram. Our McPherson was both courting her and butting her as soon as she joined her flock. And towards the end of herding (mostly the purpose was for the sheep to graze the last of green grass) McPherson sneaked up on me and butted me, when I was paying attention to Bonnie. I was so surprised I didn't do much. Now I will have a big bruise on my thigh, but that's not a problem really. The standard procedure is that if a ram butts once, he is mutton. But I'd hate to get rid of him, he is only two years old.

 

Maja

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Just a thought...

In the video where you are taking the sheep to the field to work looks like it would be a perfect place to start Bonnie's driving practice. Unless the sheep can bolt up ahead into trouble, the narrow pathway will help to keep Bonnie and the sheep going in the right direction without the space for her to try sneaking up into a fetching mode.

JMO

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Yes, you are right, Kristen. And I was very eager to start on driving, because Bonnie has a very strong sense of balance, and I don't want to have to fight with it later, but I wanted to do it first on light sheep. Cameroons (at least my Cameroons) are hard to move when I am not in front of them, and they are impossible for me to move in a straight line if I am standing on their side because they turn towards me. But I started on the woolies, and after we went home we did a little driving on our pain-in-the-neck Cameroons with decent result.

 

Maja

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So here is the movie from today. As my teacher says: a dog knows as much as she shows in the first 10 minutes on new sheep. So it's not so nice and tidy as at home. Bonnie was very excited.

 

The movie starts with us having to peel the sheep off the fence. It's a difficult job because there is a lamb on the other side of the fence bleating his head off.

 

Then there is a bit of wearing, and then we move away for an outrun, and the sheep escape to where the lamb is. So we go to get the whole flock from the enclosure.

 

Again some wearing. Then a very so-so outrun, with a difficult fetch because the sheep wanted to go to their shepherd.

 

Then another so-so outrun - way too fast.

 

Then at 3:52 we do the outrun the way our teacher told us to for now.

 

And lastly the introduction to the drive.

 

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Here we are doing a little more introduction to driving. If anyone sees some serious handling faults, please tell me. I am a little surprised that she seems to like it. She is still unsure of herself when she realizes I stayed behind so I try to alter by doing it together and trying to lag behind. There is no sound, because even though I talk to her almost all the time, it is very quiet, so all you'd her would be November winds.

 

 

In the meantime, our outruns are suffering from communication problems. Bonnie very clearly is trying to do her best, and very clearly misses what I am trying to tell her.

 

Maja

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I am glad you like the videos :) .

 

I like the fact that Bonnie has the same burning desire for sheep, and yet is fairly calm. I could say what I did to calm her down, but to be completely honest, I think that the majority of it was that she matured and figured things out on her own. I did of course try to work on my own communication, but I saw how Bonnie's brother changed, who has much less access to the sheep: his skills lag behind Bonnie's but he calmed down at about the same time Bonnie did. So as much as I'd like to take credit for Bonnie's calmness, I think it's her doing and maturing mostly. Are your dogs young?

 

Maja

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Here is a little movie with some exercises. We have completely put the outruns aside, waiting for the grass to die and for my brain to assimilate the ideas i have been reading on this board and in books. So in the video we do a little exercise where the "lift" is supposed to happen when Bonnie is at the right spot. Not being able to fully control the circumstances, the "lift" does not always happen as one would wish, as you can see int he video.

 

We are also practicing lie down, and directions the knowledge of which is not so good, because I had made a mistake of using identical intonation for come bye and for away, something I noticed relatively recently. In the video I fell into old habit a couple of times.

 

 

The other mistake I made, which I realized in the course of the session, was that I wanted to make sure she lies down instantly (she started to do her mommy's creep-creep-lie down), so I was too forceful with the lie down and got Bonnie confused and thinking she was doing something wrong with the directions I would send her on just before the lie down. As soon as I eased off, Bonnie's IQ increased. Now if only she could improve on her main and biggest drawback - the handler - she'd be a decent sheep dog.

 

The pain-in-the-neck lambs are both going to a new home Sunday week :)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHRBfC_P1_s

 

As usual, suggestions are welcome.

Maja

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I am including here our last outruns from a week ago, which I put aside to think about the problems and try to figure things out before going back. This is the same video I put for Bob in "ask the expert" but i wanted it here too to keep the little chronicle. the first is not a real outrun.

 

Keep in mind folks that Bonnie, apart form her handler handicap, is a WHOLE 4 months younger than Julie's Ranger ;) so her being less advanced is only natural ;) . Now, how much would that be in doggie years ;):lol: ?

 

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:D. You should see Ranger's littermate Moon, who is well behind Bonnie in her training, though a breakthrough has been made and she should start coming along faster now. They're all different. The main value of comparison is to get ideas about training your own dog from seeing how others train theirs!

 

J.

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So what can one do herding wise when there is a foot of snow, and the sheep want to do nothing except stay in their stall? I guess one thing might be taking them out of that stall. So we tried it. The first time Bonnie is going in on away which in tight spots is here less preferred (but she prefers away on outruns). The second time is on comeby,a nd we did it because after we too the sheep out, Bonnie got her directions mixed up and the sheep went back inside.

 

 

Maja

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, the snow came so early and it's not going away, and the forecast is really bad. By the desk at my feet, Bonnie lays sleeping or making unhappy grunting noises, or sits puts her paw on my knee and looks at me pleadingly. What do to? i am not going to make the sheep plow through the snow. So we took them out and brought them into the yard for a while. The sheep were surprised at the new place, but Bonnie was ecstatic. After the short herding session bonnie jumped on me she was so happy. Here are a few snips of our "herding":

 

 

maja

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  • 1 month later...

We had our first two herding sessions since more that a months ago. The conclusions are: we are going to get three non-dog broke sheep for Bonnie and keep them separate from the Cameroonian flock which we will keep for a while longer, but with plans to sell. If my plans works out we will get three young semi-meat ram-lambs very soon, and keep them till late fall and butcher them then.

 

The Cameroonians are a problem. I did a couple of outruns and they strted towards me as soon as Bonnie took off. They just know the routine. Bonnie nonetheless completed the outrun with a nice distance and shape, which I was very happy about, but she was not learning what it is all about! I also have problems with practicing the cross drive, which Bonnie is figuring out, but the durned sheep keep turning towards me when I am on their side.

 

This is just very basic work on balance (which I don't really want to do much of anymore with Bonnie) with Bonnie and her brother, it was for his benefit -hence the basic work.

 

 

Maja

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Today I gave a hard task for Bonnie - moving the sheep away from their morning oats. She can move them away from the hay feeder without much problem, but oats is something else. But today I tried for the first time. The sheep were very obstinate but Bonnie "out-obstinated" them, including the ram. My DH of course said that she is a brilliant dog. When it comes to helping me keep a least a semi-objective opinion of Bonnie, he is really no help at all :lol: .

 

If all goes well we will sell the flock in Feb, and buy ouessants in April.

 

Maja

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By bribing the sheep with oats we practiced the flanks a little and then we put the sheep in their enclosure , Bonnie is a bit close to them there but she has much less power on the drive than on the fetch where she can keep a large distance and still move them, one the drive she can't I don't know why. I wonder if it's because they are over-dogged, or is it my presence.

 

 

 

maja

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