BC v English and Australian Shepherds

[mum24dog]

Why is there a tradition of naming US breeds after other parts of the world?

I've just seen in another thread a refernce to an "English" Coonhound. We don't have raccoons in England - why would we need a hound for them?

 

Anyway - I have met the only English Shepherds in England (or so the owner tells everyone). One of them looks and behaves like many BCs I know - given the wide diversity amongst BCs. The other just looks like a crossbreed as it is black and tan.

Just wondering what the point is?

The only thing the owner keeps saying is that they have an off switch - which the working BCs I know have too. Work - chill - work - chill etc.

Anyone enlighten me?

 

And Aussies. Sorry if I offend anyone who likes them but I can't see the point of them either. Why breed a dog which is heavier and less agile than most BCs and has too much coat (and then cut its tail off)?

 

Were they bred for work initially or did they feed the pet/show market first and then people decided to test their working ability?

 

I know the one that won Crufts a couple of years back was portrayed as a multi purpose show/working/sport dog, but from the film clips I saw I wasn't convinced.

 

Since we don't have working Aussies over here (or many of them at all), I can't compare them with BCs from my own experience. I can think of a handful in agility, that's all.

 

Just inviting opinions from those who will have more knowledge of the breeds.

 

Pam

[sea4th]

I can't answer all of your questions --- and you do present some interesting points. I can make a response on the Australian Shepherd. The best analogy I can give you is that they also began like border collies, working stock, many on the rangy side. Just as what you see what is presented as the ideal border collie in the show ring isn't indicative of a working bred bc, it's the same with Aussies. Unfortunately, what I've seen here as show Aussies and show BC's, are pretty much interchangable with each other, adding or removing the tail. All of these words --- what I'm trying to say is that working Aussies look nothing like the Crufts show winner you referred to, or any other bench champion aussie. Less coat, rangy, many look like "curs". I use the word "curs" because that's what my bc's were called by someone who had show bc's (and who, BTW, quietly left a herding day with her bench champion after observing these "curs" doing stuff she never even dreamed her show bred bc could do.) How else are you going to save face after a comment like that. Kind of the same with Aussies.

 

Anyway, looking forward to reading some of the answers you get.

[mum24dog]

I use the word "curs" because that's what my bc's were called by someone who had show bc's

 

Reminds me of someone on another board who said she had her non papered BC at Crufts and one snooty show woman asked loudly "Who let that in here?"

 

If that happened to me, I'd be tempted to ask her exactly what her dog "does".

 

Don't think our BC is likely to be passing the show benches any time soon. He's too much of a working type dog and would absolutely go into overdrive at the crowds and noise. Someone or thing might get bitten and I'm not risking that.

 

We've had our JRT and a couple of crossbreeds there and had no derogatory remarks. Bit disappointed really. I like an argument.

 

Pam

[kelpiegirl]

I never heard of an english coon hound- english FOX hound, yes. Perhaps they said the wrong term?? As for Aussies- the whole Australian term is enigma to me. Aussie folks here may know. Yes, they were bred to work- but NOT the same way as the BC. I have seen many old pics of the aussies driving behind groups of cattle. There are working Aussies in Europe- I met a woman who has one- decent dog. Has a tail (of course- being in the EU). As for naming breeds for other countries- maybe it's because it sounds cool? Or the dogs did originate, some where WAAAAY back in the pedigree from that country. I know that the UK terms our Cocker spaniel and American Cocker spaniel, and we call the Cocker from England an English Cocker...

[kelpiegirl]

I would like to address that point- I have met many top level working bred Collies (BC) that could handle myriad situations- like fairs, other places where dogs hear LOTS of noise. The dog needs to be exposed to that as a pup, to be able to handle it well. One thing that I keep hearing time and time again from the breeders of Collies in the UK/Scotland, is that these dogs shouldn't be trouble- meaning they are able to relax/chill out when not needed, and prick up when needed. Working dogs are generally selected for their usefulness, and when not needed, their ability to stay out of the fray.

 

Reminds me of someone on another board who said she had her non papered BC at Crufts and one snooty show woman asked loudly "Who let that in here?"

 

If that happened to me, I'd be tempted to ask her exactly what her dog "does".

 

Don't think our BC is likely to be passing the show benches any time soon. He's too much of a working type dog and would absolutely go into overdrive at the crowds and noise. Someone or thing might get bitten and I'm not risking that.

 

We've had our JRT and a couple of crossbreeds there and had no derogatory remarks. Bit disappointed really. I like an argument.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

I would like to address that point- I have met many top level working bred Collies (BC) that could handle myriad situations- like fairs, other places where dogs hear LOTS of noise. The dog needs to be exposed to that as a pup, to be able to handle it well. One thing that I keep hearing time and time again from the breeders of Collies in the UK/Scotland, is that these dogs shouldn't be trouble- meaning they are able to relax/chill out when not needed, and prick up when needed. Working dogs are generally selected for their usefulness, and when not needed, their ability to stay out of the fray.

 

I agreed completely but unfortunately ours spent 6 of his first 8 months with a family with 4 children, one of them autistic, and socialisation doesn't seem to have come too high up on their priority list.

Working type - wrong environment - where have we heard that before?

 

Rescue BCs from Ireland are usually comparatively well adjusted if they haven't been too cruelly treated. They tend not to be bred or kept as pets there and any ones with bad temperament don't last long. They do tend to socialise themselves because they are pretty much ignored if they survive as pups.

 

Pam

[JaderBug]

Reminds me of someone on another board who said she had her non papered BC at Crufts and one snooty show woman asked loudly "Who let that in here?"

 

I think I would have said, "No one 'let' him in, THIS Border Collie is smart enough to let himself into places!" What a horrid woman...

 

As for the English vs. Aussie vs. BC stuff... I know that Aussies were bred by western cattlemen originally, which I think is why they're missing their tails, and I think that's also why they're heavier boned. Their working style is quite a bit different as well, I think they're a little more hard headed than a BC(someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these!!).

 

I have a hard time figuring out what's different about English shepherds, a friend of mine has had one full blood and one English/BC mix. I know they look a LOT like BCs, but I think their coats tend to be more of a sable color (the ones I've seen anyway). One thing about the English Shepherds is that they haven't been AKC-ized like BCs and Aussies, which I think is a good thing. Their working style and overall attitude is different from a BC as well, from what I've been told anyway. My friend told me that they are a lot less easy to offend and less likely to quit on you (??), whatever that means. She said they don't use their eye as much as a BC either. Hope I'm remembering that right, we haven't had that conversation in a long time!!

 

I've also always wondered why American breeds have different countries' names attached to them...

 

How does the McNab fit into here as well??

[Barb Scott]

Why is there a tradition of naming US breeds after other parts of the world?

I've just seen in another thread a refernce to an "English" Coonhound. We don't have raccoons in England - why would we need a hound for them?

 

Anyway - I have met the only English Shepherds in England (or so the owner tells everyone). One of them looks and behaves like many BCs I know - given the wide diversity amongst BCs. The other just looks like a crossbreed as it is black and tan.

Just wondering what the point is?

The only thing the owner keeps saying is that they have an off switch - which the working BCs I know have too. Work - chill - work - chill etc.

Anyone enlighten me?

 

Just inviting opinions from those who will have more knowledge of the breeds.

 

Pam

 

I can't answer the whys of breeding but here's a link to a comparison chart on BCs, Aussies and English Shepherds: http://www.nesr.info/whatbreed/

Barb S

[JaderBug]

Got interested in this topic and did some searching, this is what I found on BCs vs. Aussies. Original link:

 

"Aussies may appear to be Border Collies without tails to those unfamiliar with each breed. Generally, Border Collies are lighter and smaller in stature than Australian Shepherds. The most common Border collie color is Black Bi. Border collies can be many more color combinations than Australian Shepherd. Temperament-wise, the Border collie is more flighty, a workaholic, and far more energetic. It has a different working style than the Australian Shepherd. It has beed said that a good rancher has both breeds, "the BC works better from distances, and the Aussie supplies the punch."

 

So, how do you tell from that picture which is the Aussie and which is the Border Collie? Notice that I cut out the tails so that is NOT an indication. The ears on the dog on the right are prick, a major fault for Australian Shepherds, but that alone does not rule it out. Notice the impression the two give you. Which one seems to be a more massive dog? (Meaning, which looks like it has more substance?) If you look at the heads, you will see type is also different. So which is the Aussie? The one on the left. There certainly is an overlap in "type" or "look" of the two breeds, but well bred Australian Shepherds should be generally discernable to the educated eye.

 

For more information on Border Collies, visit this site.

 

And how does an Aussie work compared to the Border Collie? The layman may not know to expect a difference, but there is. Both breeds were developed for a different purpose and their behavioral traits when working exhibit this. Please visit "Aussie Info" for more information about the traits of this working dog and the history of the Australian Shepherd as a ranch hand."

 

Also:

 

Working description of English Shepherds

 

Working description of Australian Shepherds

 

PS- Barb, that's a great resource! Does anyone else think that chart is kind of confusing though??

 

PPS- I've also heard that English Shepherds make lousy indoor/town dogs... I know there is an exception to every rule, but is there any basis for this statement??

[Seelie Fey]

They're just completely different types of dogs. Aussies are pingpong balls and border collies are snakes. I do think it's funny that <b><i>Australian</b></i> Shepherds were developed in the US. FWIW - my aussie cross has what several different vets have told me is a natural bobtail.

[Barb Scott]

Just a little related but...I judged at a 4H obedience practice this week. There was a really nice smooth-coated black and white tri male from an animal shelter. The family told me he was an aussie/beagle mix (speckles, tri coat, short hair!).

Barb S

[Debbie Meier]

As for the names, who know for sure I think it's explained or justified in one tale or another.

 

As for the breeds and simularity to the border collie, it is my understanding both the English Shepherds and the Aussies are decendent or heavily influenced by the border collie, the English Sheperd came from people wanting and easy going farm collie, they wanted something lower drive but still retaining it's sense of balance and ability to work, we have quite a few English Sheperd breeders in our area, they feel very strongly about having dogs that are good with kids, kind to stock and easy to live with, though I've seen more that are contrary to that standard then fall into it. The Aussie came from western ranchers that wanted a more aggressive dog that was more physical and looser eyed to handle cattle. Both breeds had influences at one point or another from other breeds of dogs and crossbred dogs, so inessence are crossbred. The key was to develop a style of dog you like that works in a style you like. Eventually someone decided that the Aussie had enough numbers that fit a physical standard (there's that word again) to stand on their own, and the English Sheperds had enough to stand on their own, they began compiling pedigrees, issuing papers and defined themselves and purebred. Before AKC took over the Aussiey The National Stock Dog Assoc. keep the records, I think they handled the English Sheperd too. There are still people that like Aussies and English Sheperds that carries some bc traits, some are even accused of cross breeding bc back into them, but are they, or just selecting for traits simular to bc within their breed? It's interesting hear that whole debate.

 

Deb

[kelpiegirl]

In some cases, yes, they are breeding back to the BC.

 

There are still people that like Aussies and English Sheperds that carries some bc traits, some are even accused of cross breeding bc back into them, but are they, or just selecting for traits simular to bc within their breed? It's interesting hear that whole debate.

 

Deb

[Debbie Meier]

In some cases, yes, they are breeding back to the BC.

 

 

Very possible, and what I would like to believe, but some of the other breeders don't want to believe that, they would rather accuse the breeder with the bc'isc aussie of illegally cross breeding to get the traits. It makes you realize how little some breeders understand about genetics, traits, etc of the dogs they are breeding. Some only understand the words on the registration papers. We are a society that expects people to conform to a standard, regardless of what we are involved in.

 

Deb

[kelpiegirl]

Thread hi-jack- any word on that injured ram?

 

Very possible, and what I would like to believe, but some of the other breeders don't want to believe that, they would rather accuse the breeder with the bc'isc aussie of illegally cross breeding to get the traits. It makes you realize how little some breeders understand about genetics, traits, etc of the dogs they are breeding. Some only understand the words on the registration papers. We are a society that expects people to conform to a standard, regardless of what we are involved in.

 

Deb

[blackNwhite]

And Aussies. Sorry if I offend anyone who likes them but I can't see the point of them either. Why breed a dog which is heavier and less agile than most BCs and has too much coat (and then cut its tail off)?

 

Pam

 

If you look at aussies, they have two types, the working type and the conformation type. What you describe is the conformation type and you see the same pitfalls in loss of instinct and drive on stock in the conformation dogs that you do with all other breeds. The working dogs, and there are some very nice working lines out there, are not heavy or less agile than BC's. In fact, the breed is only 40 years old and many Aussie breeders were crossing back to BC's before this to get more instinct so you will often see some that look like BC's with no tail. Others look more aussie-ish (squarer body, squarer head, more muzzle) but still work with head down, lots of eye. I find they tend to run tighter and willing to grip more than BC's (but given that most breeders focus was on cattle work, it seems suitible for the dogs). Many aussie breeders are seeing the light as to loss of working instinct and are rallying to not cross to conformation lines and breeding strictly for work with extras and non performing dogs going to performance homes.

[Debbie Meier]

Thread hi-jack- any word on that injured ram?

 

 

Yeah, broken neck, he's already in the freezer. Some of you probably hate that I look at the bright side, but he had quite a bit of fat on him so I'm glad we did not wait longer to butcher him, he was just a month over a year old so hopefully barring any distaste from stress the meat should be pretty good. He was real calm and relaxed when we euthenized him. I'll know tonight, a roast is going into the dutch oven.

 

Hopefully we will have some nice Katahdin cross lambs come December.

 

Deb

[JenS]

Ok, I'll chime in here as it's hot and smokey out and my hand is throbbing from a wasp sting.

 

I'm not an aussie person but being a bit of a history geek I've picked up a few things. The Australian Shepherd was primarily developed in California sometime around the goldrush (not entirely sure here). There once were lots of sheep in CA from the Spanish missionary's but most were gone by then. Due too a huge influx of hungry (and relatively poor) miners, thousands of fine wool sheep were imported from Australia. With these sheep came some dogs who worked them, the Australian sheep herd dogs. These dogs were mixed with local stock dogs and dogs from the Basque shepherds who came over to shepherd the flocks. Over time a distinct breed emerged based solely on working ability, although It seems there was some selection for merles (probably a form of founder effect as influenced by humans. Merle is a pretty distinct colour and it is likely some folks thought only the merle dogs could work or were "pure"). When cattle began to arrive the dogs worked them as well. Today the true working Aussie is getting rarer and rarer. I liked the few I've met. I haven't been as fond as the "conformation" version but maybe the folks who had them expected different things. For instance, I can't stand dogs jumping on me.

 

As for McNabs they are from one family who had a very large operation in Mendocino County and again around the goldrush 9maybe a bit before). They imported working dogs from Britain who were Border Collies even though they weren't called that yet. They also mixed with local dogs (and Basque dogs) but the Collie was main breed and was bred back to. They usually have a slick coat and even today short coated Border Collies are often called and mistaken for McNabs. Just had my short coated dog get called that last weekend.

 

So there you go. I don't know much about English Shepherds, although a get a feeling they are a pretty modern dog trying to recreate an older dog that may or may not have existed. I have no proof of this, just a feeling.

 

 

Jennifer in California where the smoke is thick. AGAIN

 

 

P.S. Deb, I routinely slaughter Katahdin rams around two years of age and nobody can tell it isn't six month old lamb. Well, the cuts are bigger. Enjoy your roast!

[Debbie Meier]

P.S. Deb, I routinely slaughter Katahdin rams around two years of age and nobody can tell it isn't six month old lamb. Well, the cuts are bigger. Enjoy your roast!

 

 

Cool, it out in the fire pit right now in a dutch oven!!

 

Deb

[hsnrs]

My Aussie from working lines is on the slight side; not a show girl at all.

[mum24dog]

I know that Aussies were bred by western cattlemen originally, which I think is why they're missing their tails, and I think that's also why they're heavier boned. Their working style is quite a bit different as well, I think they're a little more hard headed than a BC

 

That sounds very much like one of my friend's BCs. His parents worked cattle and he's as tough as they come, both physically and mentally.

He's completely different from their other BC. She was picked up as a stray (in sheep country) and is very definitely from sheep working lines.

Having said that, the farm near us uses a very small and light dog to work the cattle, although that really just involves getting them in for milking and taking them out again, so not quite like working huge herds out on the range. Milk cows rather than beef too, so a lot more docile.

 

Pam

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

The Basque/Australia connection on the Aussies was true.

 

Like many of us, our dogs trace our immediate ancestry to some country other than the states. Once here, they'll be labeled with the name, even though the dog that emerges over time may be unrecognizable in looks and function.

 

A good example is the English shepherd. The ES is, in fact, the closest thing we have to a breed which is unchanged from the way the show collie/Border Collie looked before specialization split the breed and created the fine-tuned Border Collie breed.

 

The ancestors of the ES were brought over by homesteaders to be general farm dogs. The unique challenges they faced here turned them into very all-purpose dogs, but with much different emphases than they had overseas. Where there, it was more important to be able to gather and drive stock around, here, monitoring the homestead and hunting were equally important, if not more so.

 

It's this multi-function that really defines the breed because as someone mentioned, there's very little physical difference between them and an Aussie with a tail, or a tall Border Collie. But it you ever work with one with the instincts in the right place, you'll feel the difference right away - it's a night and day difference among the breeds.

 

Aussies also were, in fact, around long before the Border Collie was established as a breed. Like the Border Collie, their purpose was very clear for many generations before anyone bothered to start a studbook. I won't go into all the differences but there are many. When working with both of them, the first thing that will strike a trainer is that an Aussie is very task-oriented, usually. The typical Aussie needs to see the point of what you are asking, and that he's achieved it. The typical Border Collie will stick his nose in a box when requested, just because it's something to do. Aussies need to be needed, while Border Collies need to be used.

[mum24dog]

The ES is, in fact, the closest thing we have to a breed which is unchanged from the way the show collie/Border Collie looked before specialization split the breed and created the fine-tuned Border Collie breed.

 

I'm finding it difficult to get my head round this.

There never was a way the BC "looked", just as there isn't now, so how can the ES be close to that appearance?

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

Aussies also were, in fact, around long before the Border Collie was established as a breed.

 

Could you elaborate on that please?

How do you define the BC as being "established as a breed"?

Similar dogs were around in the 17thC at least (appearance irrelevant).

The ISDS was founded in 1906.

The UK KC recognised the breed in 1976.

The AKC recognised the breed in 1994.

The CKC has only just taken that step.

 

Development of the AS only seems to date back to the 19thC.

 

Pam

[JaderBug]

Aussies need to be needed, while Border Collies need to be used.

 

Really like this statement, rings pretty true

 

Thanks for the info on the ES too!