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Concerned about over-vaccination??


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#41 Pipedream Farm

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 02:51 AM

Originally posted by Miztiki:
What is IgG and what does it mean if it's elevated?

In the body there is a class of protein call immunoglobulin; there are several classes of these: IgG, IgM, IgA, IgD and IgE. IgG comprises ca. 75% of the immunoglobulins. These proteins are expressed by the body in defense of a foreign body and are usually referent to as antibodies. IgGs are expressed for virus and bacteria while IgMs are usually expressed for allergies.

Titers measure the amount of specific IgGs (antibodies) present in the blood. These levels can indicate reaction to a recent threat to the body (infection) or readiness of the body to deal with potential threats (immunity).

BTW this is written with the bias of one theory of immunity, there is another.

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#42 AfterThought

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 07:56 AM

Carson Crazies,

Thanks for the clarification. I just called my vet's office and they said they don't do titres. But the tech told me that my dog's upcoming vaccination (he's almost 3)will be his second adult booster and that will last for 3 years. So he won't be due again till 2009. Definitely feel better now.

#43 Miztiki

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 08:04 AM

Thanks Mark.

#44 Lunar

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 05:08 AM

I've been doing some research and found some sites that list recommendations for vaccination. I thought I'd share them here. In no way do I endorce any specific one nor vouch for the website's validity, this is just what came up in my search.

http://www.doglogic....vaccination.htm

http://www.critterad.....0Our Pets.htm

http://www.sagekeep.com/vaccines1.htm

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#45 Guest_TheRuffMuttGang_*

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 02:09 PM

Sorry to bring this topic up since it hasn't been posted on in almost a month, but I couldn't hold back about this issue.

Lunar, thanks for posting the Dodds article, btw!!

Just curious...has no one here done their own research on over-vaccination and vaccinosis? I think it is wonderful that there is a vet here giving advice, but I think the ultimate decision is up to each individual person after said person has done a lot of reading and researching of their own.

After doing my own research, I have opted to not vaccinate my current pets (dogs and cats) at all from here on out. I am confident after my research efforts in making this decision.

Following are some helpful articles. Take the time to read them if you have any doubts about vaccines! Do more of your own research. Do a Google search for "over vaccination" or "vaccinosis" and you will be surprised what you find out!!

http://www.littlebig...tem=vaccination

http://www.angelfire...VaccBlanco.html

http://www.homeovet....e/section2.html

http://www.caberfeidh.com/VaxNone.htm

This one, although written primarily about cats, is excellent at explaining why we do not and SHOULD not vaccinate our pets on a yearly (or even triennially) basis.

http://www.blakkatz....vaccination.htm

Alright, fire away!

#46 Black Watch Debatable

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 02:50 PM

Debbie writes:

Just curious...has no one here done their own research on over-vaccination and vaccinosis? I think it is wonderful that there is a vet here giving advice, but I think the ultimate decision is up to each individual person after said person has done a lot of reading and researching of their own.

No... no one here has given it much thought, to be honest.

I'm kidding, obviously. The Boards have a thread on vaccination protocol once a month or so, with links to research articles and everything. Do a search, and you'll see why Eileen made this a sticky.

Luisa
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#47 Guest_TheRuffMuttGang_*

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 03:05 PM

Thanks. I have been a member here for a while but don't read on a daily basis and therefore miss a lot of threads. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just wanted to make sure others were aware of these things since I didn't see it discussed in this particular thread. I know how annoying it can be to have to repeat things over and over on message boards for those who don't read threads, etc. So anyhow...thanks for the clarification Luisa.

#48 Guest_TheRuffMuttGang_*

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 03:21 PM

Okay, I looked at all of the ones you linked to, Luisa, and all it is are people saying they will ask their vet this, and ask their vet that about vaccines. In the end everyone got shots, including the useless and dangerous bordatella vaccine! No one even bothered to dicuss the issues presented in the articles I just posted such as: giving our dogs chronic diseases vs. giving them acute diseases. MANY of the health problems we see in our furry friends these days are directly related to over-vaccination. Here is ax excerpt from the angelfire site:

What Are the Adverse Reactions, If Any?
Unfortunately, adverse reactions to vaccines have been considered to be the immediate hypersensitivity reactions of anaphylaxis. This severely limits the types of reactions that are ever even considered to be related to vaccines. Other problems surface which make accurate tallying of adverse reactions difficult. At present time there are no easy or effective reporting systems; many vets are reluctant to report even those where an animal dies, and the cause-effect relationship is not always clear. Even to those who believe that many of the illnesses we see, both acute and chronic, are directly related to over-vaccination, it is still at times difficult to show how this works.

There are many situations where the perfectly healthy puppy is taken at 6 weeks for his first vaccines. Maybe he has a slight fever or lack of appetite and energy for a day or so. Then he is returned 2 to 3 weeks later for more vaccines. Maybe he will show another fever or maybe a day of diarrhea. Then he is returned in 2 or 3 weeks for more vaccines. Maybe he starts to itch a bit. Often by the time the pup is 6 months old he has several problems going on. He often has loose stools and he itches, but there are no fleas. Thus begins the first stages of chronic illness brought on by the vaccines.

When a perfectly healthy individual is given viruses that cause illness, the animal is going to manifest illness-related symptoms. This healthy individual is asked to maintain a low-level stimulation of a state of distemper, a low level state of parvo, a low level state of rabies, and so on. As long as you are in a low level state of illness you are not in a high level state of health. Therefore, the vaccines provide protection by keeping the body in a diseased state of health. Often the animal will not manifest the illness it is vaccinated for, at least not in its acute form, but it will manifest in other conditions. Usually these conditions are inherited weaknesses.

Chronic symptoms look very much like the acute illnesses but they are often not life-threatening unless allowed to continue for years and years.

For distemper we often see:
Watery fluid dripping from the nose
Conjunctivitis, eye discharge, entropion
Chronic gastritis, hepatitis, pancreatitis, appetite disorders
Recurrent diarrhea
Sensitivity to food with resultant diarrhea
Epilepsy, rear leg paralysis, spondylitis
Lip fold dermatitis
Excessive licking of feet, eruptions between the toes, allergies
Kennel cough, chronic bronchitis
Chronic skin eruptions, especially lower half of body
Failure to thrive, abnormally thin

For rabies we often see:
Restless nature, suspicion of others, aggression to animals and people
Changes in behavior: aloofness, unaffectionate, desire to roam,
OR clingy, separation anxiety, 'velcro dog'
Restraining can lead to violent behavior and self-injury
Self-mutilation, tail chewing
Voice changes, hoarseness, excessive barking
Chronic poor appetite, very finicky
Paralysis of throat or tongue, sloppy eaters, drooling
Dry eye, loss of sight, cataract
Eating wood, stones, earth, stool
Destructive behavior, shredding bedding
Seizures, epilepsy, twitching
Increased sexual desire, sexual aggression
Irregular pulse, heart failure
Reverse sneezing

Some of the illnesses you are familiar with include any auto-immune disease such as lupus, red cell aplasia, auto-immune hemolytic anemia cardiomyopathies; neoplasias such as fibrosarcomas, mast cell tumors, thyroid tumors, etc.; inflammatory bowel disease, eczematous ears, any dermatological condition, warts, lipomas, poor hair coats, stomatitis, periodontal disease, thyroid disease, and the list goes on and on.

Now you could be wondering why I am so bold to 'blame' all these and more on vaccines. The reason is simple: I have an empirical, call it experimental lab where I visit daily and watch the animals, year after year. In the short years of my career I have seen the incredible increase in all these illnesses, some we never even learned in vet school. In fact, my vet school is now primarily an oncology treatment center! This was not the case a short 20 years ago. I have also spoken with many vets who have practiced longer than I and their response is the same. They did not see the level of chronic illness, nor the resistant and concretized type of illnesses that we see today.


Trust me when I say that I questioned everything in that excerpt before accepting it, the same as many other people will do. But read through 100 articles that say the same thing and your mind will start to change as well.

#49 Black Watch Debatable

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 04:57 PM

In the end everyone got shots, including the useless and dangerous bordatella vaccine!

We must not be looking at the same links.

Many folks---I'm one---follow the advice of our holistic vets. Some opt for titers. Some do only what's required by law. Sample comment from my first link:

I vaccinate my dogs for Parvo and Distemper as puppies and then they are never vaccinated again.

I think you're reinventing the wheel, here, but hey---knock yourself out :rolleyes:

Luisa
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#50 Guest_TheRuffMuttGang_*

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 05:42 PM

Maybe we weren't reading the same links...I searched for "vaccination" "over vaccination" and "vaccinosis" on this site and didn't come up with anything resembling the information I have posted. Yes, I did see comments such as the one you posted about puppyhood vaccines, but no discussions on WHY vaccines are dangerous and WHY we shouldn't give them on a yearly basis. It's all good and well that people only give them every 3 years because the vet said it's okay...but do they know why they are doing so (my guess is YOU do, but I don't get that feeling about everyone)? Are they just doing it because "research says vaccines last x amount of years" or because they have educated themselves about the horrible, senseless diseases we are giving our dogs by vaccinating them so much?

I'm not reinventing the "wheel"--just trying to bring it to those who aren't already using it! Apparently everyone here has been properly educated and is using the "wheel" appropriately so I am done with this topic.

#51 Eileen Stein

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 07:07 PM

<< Just curious...has no one here done their own research on over-vaccination and vaccinosis? I think it is wonderful that there is a vet here giving advice, but I think the ultimate decision is up to each individual person after said person has done a lot of reading and researching of their own. >>

By "research" I take it you mean reading stuff that people have written on the subject? And then choosing which ones you're going to believe, and which ones you aren't going to believe?

Yes, I think most of us have done that. I also suspect that vets have generally read more stuff than any of us non-vets have, and that in general they have better background knowledge (through both education and experience) to evaluate the validity and soundness of that stuff. So I would weigh the stuff a vet I know to be good says pretty highly.

BTW, I disagree with your statement that "there is a vet here giving advice." I think if you re-read the thread, you will see that the vet is giving information, including information about what the AAHA recommendations are, rather than giving advice.

<< It's all good and well that people only give them every 3 years because the vet said it's okay...but . . . Are they just doing it because "research says vaccines last x amount of years" or because they have educated themselves about the horrible, senseless diseases we are giving our dogs by vaccinating them so much? >>

You are stating a conclusion you have come to, or IOW, the stuff somebody wrote that you have chosen to believe. Some of us may be more inclined to put our trust in "research [that] says vaccines last x amount of years" than in people who says things like "However, I have no studies and statistics and web links to give you that will 'prove' that [immunizing your puppy is bad]. I cannot prove it. I just know it."

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#52 AK dog doc

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 10:26 PM

Thank you, Eileen.

Pause while I bang my head against the wall. I'm going to try not to be too intense here (no promises), but I have to wonder now why I spent all those years growing intimate with the intricate workings of the immune system, and all those hours trying to share the knowledge here, when something like this can come along and completely convince (some?) people that science is wrong, medicine is evil, vaccines are the work of the devil and no animal should have them. The quoted article is, IMO, poorly written and so unclear as to be almost unintelligible, and yet it apparently carries a weight of authority so complete that it has silenced, at least in some ears, the biological truths of the function and purpose of the immune system.

Perhaps it's a flaw in the way the quoted article (italicized) was written, but to me it's quite misleading. To say that the healthy individual is asked to "maintain a low-level stimulation of a state of distemper" (or parvo or rabies) via vaccination is incorrect. I'll say it again: THIS IS INCORRECT. It implies - in fact, you could argue it states outright - that vaccination for, say, rabies, CAUSES RABIES - and "maintains" it in the system. A low level of it to be sure, but a persistent state of rabies none the less. This demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how vaccines work. If that was indeed written by a vet and not paraphrased, he or she needs to go back to immuno 101 and get a refresher since apparently they slept through that the first time. They should also consider that it IS NOT POSSIBLE for a killed virus vaccine to cause the disease it vaccinates against.

No. No, no and no again. Rabies is a fatal disease. If your dog had a persistent level of rabies in his system, he would die. Sorry. That's how it is.

In case I was not clear in earlier posts, let me reiterate: the purpose of vaccine is to educate the immune system. Your immune system is getting educated all the time in the natural world, and if all goes well it will acquire the relevant education before you are killed by something about a billionth of your size. The PURPOSE of the immune system is TO REACT. That's what it's SUPPOSED to do. The reason we vaccinate is to give the immune system a chance to react and develop a good immunity to a disease agent BEFORE the disease agent, in its virulent state, comes along and kills us. It harnesses the immune system to perform the function FOR WHICH IT IS DESIGNED, but to do so in a situation that is vastly less risky to the animal. If your dog went out and got parvo, his immune system would get quite the education in parvo virus fighting - IF he survived it. In my expereince, hospitalized and agressively-treated pups have about a 70% survival rate. Pups treated at home with fluids and antibiotics have about a 30% survival rate. Pups not treated have less than a 5% survival rate - so the ability of the dog to survive the infection in the first place is in question. But if he DID manage it - and managed it without long-term defecits, such as intestinal scarring, failure to thrive and chronic immunosupression - is this somehow going to lead to the "evil" of immunostimulation? Is he going to die of mysterious disease syndromes because he got parvo? Maybe - just like a vaccinated dog. If your dog got distemper his odds would be considerably worse. If he got rabies, he's dead - and so might you be. And so might your child, or mine. If you choose to fail to comply with the law in your state about rabies vaccine, you should do so in the full awareness that your unprotected dog, if infected, stands as a potentially lethal threat to everyone with whom it comes in contact. This is why there are laws to govern rabies vaccination. There are no laws to govern diseases that are not fatal or otherwise risky to human health, so there the choice is yours - but you should realize that should your dog contract one of those dieases, he will be a nice little disease vector for other animals in your community - and not just other dogs, but other species (including wildlife) as well, depending on the virus.

It's all very well to say, "Yeah, but how often do distemper outbreaks occur, really? I'VE never heard of one!" No, of course not - BECAUSE OF VACCINES. So why should you vaccinate your dog? By all means, make your decision as you like - but be aware that the reason you DON'T see parvo and distemper outbreaks every year that decimate entire kennels (or somtimes entire towns) is VACCINE.

I don't even know where to start with the statement "Therefore, the vaccines provide protection by keeping the body in a diseased state of health." Say what? Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary defines "health" as "a state of optimal physical, mental and social well-being, and not merely the absence of of disease or imfirmity." It defines "disease" as "any deviation from or diusruption of the normal structure or function of the body that is manifested by a characteristic set of symptoms and signs whose etiology, pathology and prognosis may be known or unknown." Hence the term "diseased state of health" is nonsensical in and of itself. Further, if the body is "diseased" (without simultaneously being "healthy", one presumes), then the vaccines are providing protection how, exactly? And if the vaccines are providing protection, which means the avoidance of disease, then by definition is that not PREVENTING disease?

Now we get to the thing where the vaccinated dog will somehow not manifest the disease that it was vaccinated for (well, no, since that disease was prevented by vaccination ) and will instead manifest some other condition as a result of vaccination. And evidently "Usually these conditions are inherited weaknesses." I'm sorry, but vaccines are not inherited, so how is a vaccine causing an inherited weakness? That's like saying that you inherited your native language. You didn't. You learned it after birth. If you had been born in China you'd have learned Chinese. It isn't genetic. By the same token, saying that a vaccine causes an inherited disease is nonsensical.

Let me clarify something that often confuses people: there is a difference between INHERITED and CONGENITAL disease. Inherited is by defininition something that is present IN THE GERM CELL - egg or sperm - PRIOR to fertilization. A congential disease is one that occurs AFTER fertilization, but prior to birth - as in a mistake made during development, for whatever reason - including, perhaps, the vaccination of the bich during pregnancy. But here let me be VERY clear - the cause of that is the VIRUS - NOT THE VACCINE. A spontaneously-encountered virus which replicates in a susceptible pregnant bitch causes the same problems - and possibly worse ones, such as the loss of the entire litter and/or the bitch. Moreover, unless it causes a mutation IN THE GERM CELLS - ALL of them - IT DID NOT CUASE AN INHERITED DISEASE.

Now to the list of "possible manifestations." These are far too broad and nonspecific to be of any value. Let me cite an example in everyone's favorite, diarrhea. (You KNEW I was going to get here eventually, didn't you?) :rolleyes: Diarrhea is what is called a "non-specific" sign - in that a great many things can cause it, and diarrhea in itself is non-diagnostic. If every single time a dog had diarrhea it could mean only one disease, then it would be a specific, or pathognomonic, sign (one on which a diagnosis can be made with no other information - an example being the dendritic corneal ulcer in cats, which is diagnostic of feline herpes.) However, there are a GREAT many things that can cause diarrhea, and I'm sure every one of my readers can attest to that from personal experience. (I am NOT asking for testimonials, and please do not mail me samples.) :D Can diarrhea be laid entirely at the door of vaccines? Nope. Can it be laid partly at the door of vaccines? Maybe - but show me the proof before you ask me to believe it. The impassioned insistance of even another vet, in the absence of proof, is not enough. That is not science. It's proseletizing.

There are a great many diseases we see now that we used to rarely see - but you must be VERY careful not to overinterpret that. There are also a great many other variables that we did not used to see (such as pets living into their teens and twenties, global warming, and two different Presidents both named George Bush, to name but a few) - and unless you can completely control those variables and test every single one of them, alone and in combination, and compare them to vaccination changes in the last 20 years, you cannot conclude that vaccination has led to the changes in disease occurence. That's important, so I'll give an example. Let's say you went out and got a new dress and then your friends took you out for dinner for your birthday, at which you wore the new dress, ate sushi, and drank a quart of saki. Later, you feel crappy, vomit quite a lot, and have a terrible headache, stomach ache, nausea and (ta-da) diarrhea the next day. You could conclude that birthdays cause illness, or saki does, or sushi does, or your friends do, or that any of the variables or any combination of variables caused you to be ill. But before you decide that your new dress causes diarrhea and run around telling everyone that new dresses are the cause of all illness and no one should get one, don't you think you should maybe consider some other possibilites? Maybe run an experiment or two to try to rule it in or out? Consult a dress expert? Maybe you meet someone who says, "You know, I had a similar experience - I got a new dress, went out for my anniversary, drank three bottles of wine, and got sick! Well, the only thing in common is the new dress, so you must be right - new dresses DO cause diarrhea!" This doesn't make any logical sense when you look at it from a scientific point of view - yet there are bound to be people who fail to recognize that and draw the erroneous conclusion.

The fact of it is, there will always be people who fail to believe the evidence set before them, and who will listen to the neighbor before the feedstore guy, the feedstore guy before the farrier, the farrier before the vet. I don't know why this is, but it seems that for this segment of the population, the greater the level of competence, the less likely the person is to be believed. So be it. There's probably nothing I can do about that - but I can not in good conscience allow this to pass without comment. I don't know if anyone else felt there was an insinuation that all those idiots read all the information and STILL decided to "blindly" follow AN EPXPERT'S advice, proving that they're stupid, and if only everyone would read what the poster had read we'd ALL decide never to vaccinate - but to me there was a tone of implied insult in that - not just to the profession of veterinary medicine, not just to me personally, but to every person who has decided to vaccinate their dogs. Perhaps that was unintentional, but it smacks of the zeal of the recent convert.

As for the "horrible, senseless diseases we are giving our dogs by vaccinating them so much" - how about the horrible senseless deaths we give them by NOT vaccinating them? Until you have, as I have, literally crawled through blood and shit trying to save the life of one parvo puppy after another, I don't think that you're in a position to really understand just what horrible, senseless dieseases we do NOT see as a result of vaccines. These puppies die miserable deaths - ones that could be prevented by vaccination.

You want to talk seizures? Distemper causes ones so severe that they are usually completely unresponsive to medication and result in the death of the animal. You want to talk behavioral changes? Ditto, and add rabies to the list. You want to talk chronic diarrhea, poor body condition, failure to thrive? All consequences of parvo AND distemper. Conjunctivitis? Distemper. Hoarseness, bronchitis, pneumonia? Bordatella. Paralysis of the throat and tongue, drooling, agression? Distemper AND rabies (to be followed by death, don't forget.) Hepatitis? Adenovirus. Anxiety and behavioral issues? Poor training, insufficient time with the animal, inappropriate match between the breed and the owner, poor breeding, etc etc etc. Can I say that in any given case the dog is NOT affected with these things as a result of vaccination? No - you can't prove a negative. Can you prove that the dog IS afflicted with these as a result of vaccination? Let's see the proof - and I do NOT mean something that someone wrote as an observation or conculsion based on their impression. I want to see numbers, I want to see statistical analysis, I want to see good experimental design, I want to see controlled variables, I want to see refereed journals.

YES, we see more cancer now than we used to - but we also see more geriatric animals now than we used to - because medicine works. (And while age is not a disease, things accumulate over time, so cancer is in the main a disease of older animals.) If your dog dies of parvo at the age of two, he's not going to be sticking around to get cancer. Also, you have to consider the other factors, such as genetics. Look at the diff between a Chihuahua and a Mastiff. That's a lot of messing around with the genome. You start breeding for traits, as we do, and sometimes you'll inadvertantly get stuff you don't want, like a prediliction for cancer. On the subject of genetics, you must also consider that some breeds are more prone to cancer than others - so even if your premise is that they GOT cancer because of vaccines, you MUST (if there is an ounce of logic anywhere in the Universe) also concede that if vaccines were the only culprit, ALL dogs would get cancer at the same rate. This does not happen.

Do I want you to go out and vaccinate your dogs? Not my lookout. Am I trying to get you to change your position about it? Doubt anything could. Do I think you should stop trying to get OTHER people to do so, and stop implying that those who choose to vaccinate are stupid or uninformed? You betcha. Am I hoping to get you to recognize that there is a difference between an impression and a fact, and between impassioned breast-beating and fear-mongering and reasoned argument? Yes. Am I being a bit mean about all this? Well, perhaps - although that is not my intent, and if Eileen feels I should be censured for this post or it should be deleted for tone, I will abide by her judgement - and either way I will apologize if this hurts anyone's feelings. However, I cannot possibly convey just how frustrating this is; having felt that I did a reasonable job of explaining (at considerable length and effort) myself and the facts at issue, and then discovering that I apparently did NOT, by use of reasoned tone and cool head and hard fact, make my point, I am inclined to state my case more agressively. I sincerely apologize if that is offensive to anyone here.

Okay. Done with rant.
It is illegal for me to diagnose your dog over the internet. I respectfully decline to answer e-mail or PM requests for medical advice or diagnosis. I will respond to questions posted in the public fora as I have time and at my own discretion. Thank you for your understanding.

Besides, I have to go make some wine now.

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#53 kelpiegirl

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 02:12 AM

Thanks AKdoc, for a well written post!
I have been doing titers now for a few years. I had my 9 year old Boxer in for minor surgery, and before we could do it, I was told he was due for D/P vax. I declined, asking, instead for a titer. Titer came back very very low. Vet told me I had to vaccinate him, that he was not protected. But, my other vet (the treating vet) told me that the titer doesn't measure all types of immunity, so he *may* be okay. I emailed a vetmed list and a few vets replied that he probably *was* okay- that he hadn't been challenged recently- as he was a 100% stay at home dog- and that I didn't do him any great shakes by vaccinating him. So, of course, that was after the fact. Since he received his vax, he has been having skin/ear issues- that he doesn't normally have. I guess I was so shocked at how low his levels were, I decided descretion was the better part of valour? Anyway, I really don't think a 10 year old dog who received every 3 year vaxs, necessarily needed the booster, but I did so anyway. I think much more research needs to be done on all sorts of immunity measures.
As for differing opinions- there are many well respected, and boarded vets out there who are opposite sides of the fence, and I chose to sorta sit on it, and determine what to do based on titers, and improved immunological knowledge....
Julie
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#54 Guest_TheRuffMuttGang_*

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 02:51 AM

AK dog doc--There are some veterinarians who will say what you say and others who say the complete opposite. There is plenty of scientific research out there on this subject, not just so-and-so's website stating their point of view. It is research that you obviously do not want to accept and that is fine. But I AM entitled to make my own decisions and I AM allowed to present this side of the argument to other people without being beat down for it just because you don't accept it. If the topic has been discussed elsewhere on this board, well, again...I am sorry for bringing up a past topic which I could not find when I did a search. I found a lot of people here saying they would speak to their vet about it, etc, etc. Take that as an insult if you wish but that is not how it was intentioned.

Point taken though.

PS--I never said I do not vaccinate my dogs as pups so don't make generalizations that you don't know to be true. And yes, I can attest to the horrors of the above mentioned diseases. But you wouldn't know that because you don't take the time to find these things out before reaming people.

Be sure to remind that next owner of the dog who comes in with AIHA some of the potential reasons why their dog has the disease...don't leave out over-vaccination.

Note to self: Never try to start a discussion on an issue that the "important" people of the board do not agree with.

See ya.

#55 Eileen Stein

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 03:56 AM

<< AK dog doc--There are some veterinarians who will say what you say and others who say the complete opposite. >>

Right. But I think your lengthy quote and AK dog doc's reply illustrate that there are differences in the quality of those opposite "sayings."

<< There is plenty of scientific research out there on this subject, not just so-and-so's website stating their point of view. It is research that you obviously do not want to accept and that is fine. >>

You have not referenced any "scientific research," just so-and-so's website stating their point of view. The weight of the scientific research is in favor of vaccination, and therefore the consensus position of reputable veterinary professionals is in favor of vaccination (albeit less frequent vaccination than was formerly recommended). I guess that is what irritates you.

<< But I AM entitled to make my own decisions and I AM allowed to present this side of the argument to other people without being beat down for it just because you don't accept it. >>

Sure you are entitled to make your own decisions. AK dog doc said as much. Anyone would say so. You are also allowed to present that side of the argument to other people, but it is quite appropriate for the weaknesses of that side of the argument to be pointed out.

<< PS--I never said I do not vaccinate my dogs as pups so don't make generalizations that you don't know to be true. And yes, I can attest to the horrors of the above mentioned diseases. But you wouldn't know that because you don't take the time to find these things out before reaming people. >>

You said, "I have opted to not vaccinate my current pets (dogs and cats) at all from here on out," and you included links to sites advocating not vaccinating at all, even pups. I don't see where AK dog doc (or I) said that you don't vaccinate your dogs as pups.

<< Be sure to remind that next owner of the dog who comes in with AIHA some of the potential reasons why their dog has the disease...don't leave out over-vaccination {I know leaving things out is easy to do especially when it's one of your biggest money makers.} >>

That is a truly offensive and unwarranted personal attack. It amounts to professional defamation. I hope you regret making it. I will give you a chance to edit it out of your post on your own. If you don't, I will delete it for you.

<< Note to self: Never try to start a discussion on an issue that the "important" people of the board do not agree with. >>

I would say "Never try to start a discussion on an issue that anyone on the board does not agree with, unless you are prepared for them to state their disagreement."

Did you not notice that everyone who has posted to this thread is opposed to over-vaccination? Of course everyone recognizes that there are risks connected with vaccinations, but articles that flagrantly overstate those risks while minimizing the risks of failure to vaccinate lead to a faulty risk-benefit analysis, and their inaccuracies should be pointed out.

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#56 Kyrasmom

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 04:24 AM

I'm all for limiting vaccinations to essential needs as I do think they can wreak havoc with a body but I wouldn't want to live in a world without them nor do I think it's fair to make them the catch all for every immune related disease that our pups are now catching.

And I think we are able to poo-poo vaccinations nows because we aren't losing our pets on a regular basis to Parvo or Distemper. Dogs and cats are living to ripe old ages and dealing with the breakdown of the body the same as people are.

I was talking to my vet about Distemper a few months ago as there was an outbreak at our shelter, and she said, in her experience, that it goes in cycles.
The disease disappears almost because everyone vaccinates, but then as it's gone, people stop vaccination, and then there is an outbreak from one source or another, sending the community into a panic and everyone vaccinates all over again. And so it goes.

I've had dogs with cancer, wtih diabetes, with pemphigus (classic auto-immune condition) and quite honestly, I can't blame vaccinations for any of them. But I've seen dogs die of Parvo and I thank my lucky stars that prevention is available.

Life is a compromise, and for me, vaccinations are just that, not perfect, not evil, but necessary in proper context.

Maria

#57 Rhborder

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 05:04 AM

Very well put Maria, what a good way to look at it-everything in moderation!

#58 Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 05:32 AM

Thanks to AK Dog Doc, I'm on your side of this one, and to others for trying to understand how to give your dogs the best you can.
Anybody see the AnimalCops story about the full grown dog with an imbedded collar (I think) who was treated successfully for that inhumanity, only to have it contract Distemper and have to be euthanized while at the shelter for lack of an intact immunity for the disease (probably no vaccine history prior to it's surrender/confiscation.) ? (Long sentence!)
You have to do what you think is right and take responsibility for the outcome. Then again, figure in genetics, God's will, luck, fate and life's a crap shoot.

#59 Allie Oop

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 05:51 AM

In the last month or so, there has been a huge upswing in Parvo cases in the Intermountain West. (Through parts of Utah all the way up into Idaho). The vet clinics and hospitals have seen more than double to three times the amount of Parvo they usually see. They are attributing it to the number of dogs who are not being vaccinated.

I have a friend who has a 5 yr. old dog (Lab) who was just diagnosed with Parvo. (He hasn't gotten any of his jabs since he was a puppy -- and yes, he did get the very first set of shots when he was about 4 - 6 wks, but no follow-up). She has not done titers on him. Her reasoning was that because she had another dog (a pug) that had a very severe reaction to the puppy series and died as a result, she never wanted that to happen to another dog of hers again. However, now this poor dog is facing a very painful and long bout of problems which may affect him for the rest of his life and may, in fact, kill him.

I agree with the concept that over-vaccination is not a good idea. Yearly does seem excessive in most cases. The bulk of the recent articles and materials I have read seem to indicate that a 3 - 5 yr. plan is a good place to start with most dogs (once the puppy series has been given), or doing a blood titer to test immunity levels. I will be vaccinating my dog at least at the 3 yr. interval.

Why? Because I don't want my dog to suffer needlessly when a simple vaccination is available. Because I live in a city with a large population of dogs and I won't be the cause/perpetuator of an outbreak of a preventable disease. Because the possibility of side effects is relatively small opposed to the terrible problems my dog may face if she gets some of these diseases.

My 13 yr. old son's Jr. High School had a HUGE problem with Whooping Cough this year. They even had a few cases of Tuberculosis! Why? A segment of the students who attend this school have never received the vaccination for it and some of the other children's immunities to it have worn off. People are so used to these diseases being gone that they have become complacent and have not gotten basic vaccinations. (Boy, if you think dog vaccinations cause a heated discussion, you should see a gym full of angry Jr. High School parents!)

Vaccinations are a Catch-22 kind of thing. However, as long we live in areas that are populated by other people and animals, the only way to keep these diseases from occurring is to use the tools we have.
Deb, Allie & Rusty

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#60 bc friend

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 06:29 AM

AK DOC - thank you for the in depth discussion. While as a responsible dog owner, I do try to keep up with current research on health issues for my pets, I do not have a science background and rely on my vet, whom I trust implicitly. The two of us talk about what is appropriate for that pet and then decide what to vaccinate. A lot of it depends on the age of the pet - in other words, my vet doesn't have a "one size fits all" mentality.

I am old enough to remember when dogs weren't routinely vaccinated for anything except rabies. Families had a new dog every year or so - in part due to painful contagious diseases such as parvo. Dogs may develop a disease process due to vaccinations but they live a lot longer.

Bordatella -IMO is like getting a flu shot. It will protect against some but not all strains of the disease. On 2 occasions I boarded 3 dogs at a clean well cared for kennel. Each dog reacted differently: Cassie did not get kc; Sara had a mild case which cleared up with amoxy in a few days; Meg required two courses of amoxy each time and was sick for @ month. Both Cassie and Meg died of cancer - was it caused by vaccinations? Doubtful as neither form of cancer has been related to vaccinations. Cassie was 17 and Meg 9 so even if it was related to vac., they lived a lot longer than most dogs who have not been vaccinated. (And yes, I know some dogs have lived well into their teens w/o being vaccinated but compared to the number which died, old age was not common).

Sorry for the long post but it is a volatile issue.


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