Jump to content
BC Boards

Behavioral or bladder problem?


Recommended Posts

It's been awhile since I've posted I took a small break so I could work on school and I got accepted into a good nursing school-yay! Some of you remember my post about the urinating problem with my young cat Thor (or so we thought). To fill everyone in Thor has been relocated to our family vacation house where three other rescue cats reside.

 

Well the problem got WAY WORSE after Thor. Long story short the older female cat Bella AND our border collie Effie are both urinating EVERYWHERE. I got to throw away two ruined couches for Christmas this year. We are basically going to to relocate the last cat we have to see if the problem subsides with both of them. We have spent nearly $500 at the vet to try and find out what is wrong with these crazy animals....

 

Effie was potty trained...this problem has come up in the last month and half with her 5 1/2- 7 months old. We got Effie spayed at 5 months my worst fear is something went "wrong" during her operation. She went to the vet last week (of course couldn't get a urine sample just like my cat) so we treated her for allergic bladder and UTI. The vet said if the problem persists that she may need to start taking estrogen for urinary incontinence (we haven't tried this yet).

 

So Effie's pee patterns are when we are in the same room but turn our backs to her (it often happens when she just comes back from going to the bathroom outside). She either pees on the couch (which is gone now), blanket, or anything she finds laying on the floor. Also I have noticed the cat and dog are peeing in mostly the same spots. This odd behavior never happened when she was a puppy or even with our female cat. We have noticed that Effie waits at the door a lot less now but will go every 30 minutes if we take her outside. When I take her to the dog park she sometimes pees while completely sitting and not squatting which I thought was unusual. We made her sleep with a dog diaper on for three days but no urination.

 

Today her and the cat peed on a garbage bag full of Christmas wrapping paper and a PS3 controller.

 

I have no idea what to do anymore its too hard for me to tell if she has a behavior problem or internal problem. She has been scolded but still persists on peeing on everything. Should I hire some kind of dog behaviorist or find a new vet to look into her problems? Also I'm wondering if we should try the estrogen treatment??

 

Please help I feel like I have the animals from hell. :(

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Allergic bladder? That's a new one to me. I had to look it up.

 

One thing I noticed in the description (on a human medical site) was "I have seen cases of severe insterstitial cystitis triggered by chemical exposures, typically to solvents from the carpet and printing industry."

 

It makes me wonder if there could have been a chemical introduced into your home recently that has affected all three animals.

 

Maybe it's just me, but there's no way I'd be treating for a UTI unless I knew for sure there's a UTI. With the frequency, it's possible, but how would the vet even know which abx to use without doing a culture? Indiscriminate use of abx is not a good thing.

 

Urine samples aren't all that hard to collect from a dog. If she's peeing when you take her out, then take her put on a leash and collect the sample. I use a stainless steel skillet to collect; just swoop it under as soon as the dog begins to squat. I've heard of people using a coat hanger attached to an aluminum pie pan (one with no holes in it, obviously) or even a ladle.

 

With all three of them now doing the same thing, I'd be looking for a common cause. You have told the vet about all of them, haven't you?

 

Best wishes figuring this out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I think could have triggered it chemical-wise would be cleaning chemicals that are labeled as pet friendly and there is one carpet/upholstery cleaner we have been using around the female cat since we've had her. We did have pest control spray the inside of our apartment last month but this was when the cat was having urination issues. :/ We moved in in May and the urination with the cats started in October after we had Effie for a few months. Effie began to follow the cat's urination problems around November. Is it possible she could be trying to be marking the older pee spots? We are really considering setting up a hidden camera.

 

Also by "older cat" I meant she was older than the young cat we had. She is 3 years old so still very young for a cat.

 

I'm starting to finally accept our vet clinic sucks and should NOT be recommended by the allbordercollierescue. The only reason we took her there again is because they know her history. They were not willing to draw the sample even though they said her bladder was full. I'm going to collect her pee and go elsewhere. I'm just scared of the cost if she's going to have to get x-rays and ultrasounds if its something wrong with her urethra or bladder. Should I invest in some kind of healthcare plan for my dog if its becomes that serious? The vet injected her with an antibiotic for the UTI anyway and it did not help at all.

 

Thanks for replying I'm at a loss right now. :/

 

I got used couches off craiglist and am ordering plastic covers for them this time around. I'm getting my apartment steam cleaned once my kitty is being quarantined at the vacation home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once the peeing started (back a few months ago), did you rigorously clean the pee spots with an enzymatic cleaner specific for urine.? If not, then the smell is probably still being detected by the dogs and cats which is why they are going back to some of the same places. [sorry if this was already discussed before.]

 

Peeing when your back is turned? You have scolded her so she is going to make sure that if she pees, you are not watching. Smart girl.

 

If you can not trust her inside, I would be crating her or tethering her to me 100% of the time - and also taking her outside at regular intervals so she can eliminate.

 

Yes, try to get a decent vet to take a bladder sample to determine if she has a UTI or crystals or ???. I am still at a loss as to why they are recommending an Xray or ultrasound at this point without a clean urine sample. Also, I have never had a pet injected with an antibiotic for a UTI. I have always been sent home with about a month's supply of antibiotic pills. Is a one-time injection a new treatment method? Would the antibiotic still be effective 2, 3, or 4 weeks out?

 

I hope the early spaying did not mess her up.

 

Good Luck with Effie and the cats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes we use something called Vet's Best cleaner from a pet store. We go through a bottle every month...:( She is also starting to do it on jackets and things that weren't marked before. She is very jealous of cats for some reason. If I pet them or give them any kind of attention she will whine and bark at me and she never barks otherwise. If this isn't a urinary problem I can't help but think this is some kind of retaliation. I take her to a huge dog park every other day, spoil her with toys and treats, fetch everyday, walks so I have no idea why should would be angry with me. The vet I went to said it could be anger peeing.

 

Its driving my fiance and I up the wall we cannot catch her. She is literally doing it silently while we turn our backs for a second! We are going to get a camera for the apartment. I'm starting to think she isn't squatting while she does it....she might be sitting and peeing like when we were at the park the other day. I've tried treats with the clicker again with no success. I've been forced to put a diaper on her while I get house work and pee cleaning done today.

 

I have no idea his methods make no sense. Unfortunately while I was pamper shopping for my dog at petco I learned that they avoid Best Vet at all costs unless its for a routine visit for shots (advice from a vet tech that use to work there). This makes me very upset since I paid for all the "extra" treatment to ensure she had a good surgery and speedy recovery. I asked them about the antibiotic shot because I myself was pretty skeptical. They said it is faster acting and I should see results within 48 hrs....the gave the same thing to my cat.

 

Also a vet tech recommended I get her imaging done if they can't determine anything after a urine sample. I hope the spaying didn't mess her up. My mom made me get her fixed early since we live in an apartment and she goes to doggy daycare sometimes.

 

Thanks I'll let everyone know if there is any kind of success. :/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are going to try that this week. For puppies is it recommended to free feed and give free water to them or should the water be on a certain schedule? We have always left her food and water out since she's not a huge eater.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who recommends free feeding puppies?

 

I prefer to feed a puppy about 3 times per day. Around 5-7 months of age (or maybe longer if they need the extra calories), I transition the pup to 2X per day.

 

I do not like free feeding. IMHO, it creates a finicky eater or one that gorges him/herself. Also, I like to observe exactly HOW my dog is eating their food, when I feed, as it is one of the methods I use to monitor their well-being.

 

I leave water out at all times (one bowl in the kitchen and one bowl in the bedroom), but I know that if you have a problem pee-er at night, some people will pick up the water bowl at a certain time to prevent the dog from refilling its bladder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The breeders we got her from free fed her so we kept her in the same routine so that she would be comfortable. Most of the time she won't touch her food unless I put fish oil on the top or give her a raw egg. She kinda picks at her food all day if there aren't any other dogs around.

 

I have been restricting her water at night since she peed in bed with us once...I'm not sure if she did it in her sleep or not. My mom thinks I should try the estrogen treatment she doesn't think it will hurt if she doesn't have urinary incontinence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If she is peeing while sitting and sleeping, then my guess is UTI or incontincence. If it looks like she isn't even aware she is peeing, then it isn't behavioral. Either way, scolding isn't going to help. I would get a recommendation for a new vet, get her urine tested and set up cameras. If she is clearly going while she isn't aware (sitting, sleeping, just standing) then you can tell your new vet this. Has your vet suggested Proin? It is used for incontinence. It isn't without side effects (what medicine isn't), but you may want to look into it after you get her urine tested and can rule an infection, crystals, etc out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They want to get her started on Proin now since she didn't respond to her other two treatments. I'm still going to get a second opinion from another vet and collect the sample myself. It seems she loses control of her bladder now when she has been running. The urinating seems to always happen when we come back from the dog park, playing fetch, or coming back from a long walk. She may have urinated while sleeping with us...problem is we were asleep when it happened so we're not sure if she was awake or not. As of right now she hasn't urinated while sleeping yet.

For the camera we are trying to figure out what to use. I'm wondering if a nannycam is a good idea? I've never considered having a surveillance-like camera before...

 

 

If she is peeing while sitting and sleeping, then my guess is UTI or incontincence. If it looks like she isn't even aware she is peeing, then it isn't behavioral. Either way, scolding isn't going to help. I would get a recommendation for a new vet, get her urine tested and set up cameras. If she is clearly going while she isn't aware (sitting, sleeping, just standing) then you can tell your new vet this. Has your vet suggested Proin? It is used for incontinence. It isn't without side effects (what medicine isn't), but you may want to look into it after you get her urine tested and can rule an infection, crystals, etc out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do not use estrogen treatments unless under the care of a vet. They certainly are not without risk!!! In some cases even causing disease resulting in death

 

 

She will most likely be starting Proin under the care of a vet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never had a vet refer to "anger peeing". And if the vet spayed her (did the vet recommend this spay?) and you now have issues with spay incontinence -- as I do with an 8 year old bitch -- well, there may be some embarrassment. My 8 year old pees in her sleep. It is clearly not deliberate. If your girl is peeing in positions that are not generally associated with relieving herself -- my guess is spay incontinence.

 

Get a second opinion from another vet. Check your pup out for spay incontenence and if so, get some estrogen (will need to be continued throughout the dog's life, in my experience). If you have not gotten rid to the scent, it may be that your cat is triggering and peeing off the scent. I don't know enough about cats to offer advice there.

 

And I've always done unlimited water and regular mealtimes for my puppy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never had a vet refer to "anger peeing". And if the vet spayed her (did the vet recommend this spay?) and you now have issues with spay incontinence -- as I do with an 8 year old bitch -- well, there may be some embarrassment. My 8 year old pees in her sleep. It is clearly not deliberate. If your girl is peeing in positions that are not generally associated with relieving herself -- my guess is spay incontinence.

 

Get a second opinion from another vet. Check your pup out for spay incontenence and if so, get some estrogen (will need to be continued throughout the dog's life, in my experience). If you have not gotten rid to the scent, it may be that your cat is triggering and peeing off the scent. I don't know enough about cats to offer advice there.

 

And I've always done unlimited water and regular mealtimes for my puppy.

 

Yeah he referred to it as a behavioral issue...suggesting my dog would be mad at me? The vet actually recommended me getting her spayed at 3 1/2 months which I was not okay with. I really wasn't okay with her getting spayed at 5 months I wanted to wait at least an extra month but my mom pushed me to do it. I'm going get her urine culture with another vet when they are open Monday. So far Effie has only peed once in her sleep but I notice the running/activeness gets her bladder going which was never an issue as a puppy.

 

Did the estrogen help your girl? Cat pee is really strong I'm trying a new treatment to make sure the smell is not there for the dog. My mom recommended this peroxide/dish soap/baking soda mixture that supposedly does the trick. Today we relocated our cat to my mom's house to see if this could potentially be a territorial issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, that sounds like a lot of hooey to me, too.

 

Vets really should know better.

 

Sometimes I feel like they say whatever if they can't figure out the problem or manage to get a urine sample.

 

Proin is not an estrogen treatment.

 

You're right I misunderstood the vet when he was explaining what it was. He said it should help strengthen her muscles in that area in about 2-3 weeks. I'm just wondering if its as effective as estrogen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brookitar - first I just want to say that I totally sympathize with you. This can be such a frustrating issue to deal with! My Sheltie mix has spay incontinence (first started consistently showing symptoms about 3.5 years ago), and it took a while to figure out a good option for her. If your dog does have spay incontinence, you should be noticing inappropriate peeing mostly when she is asleep (as in, she'll wake up in a puddle). If she's peeing while she's awake, it most likely isn't spay incontinence, but could be a uti or a behavioral issue.

 

It does sound like you might need a new vet. I see that you are in Texas... I'm in Austin, and if you are around here, I can help you with some recommendations. If you are elsewhere in Texas, I can network through my agility contacts to get a recommendation for you.

 

For my girl, i tried some herbal treatments first (my vet uses conventional western medicine, Chinese herbs, and accupuncture in her practice). What has been working for us is a daily dose of corn silk (you can buy it In capsule form). Anja has been on corn silk for about three years now, and she's been leak free for as long. It's worked awesomely for us!

 

Before we got everything under control, I did notice that a strenuous workout would make her more prone to having a leak...

 

Best of luck, and hang in there!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Phenylpropanolamine (PPA; Proin) was banned for use in humans in the US and some other countries due to a link to strokes in woman possibly due to an increase in blood pressure. My old dog developed very wierd neurological symptoms about 1 month after starting PPA for incontinance. At the time, I did a lot of research on the drug and stopped giving it to my dog who is now fine. I really don't know if the PPA caused the problem as there were other potential diagnoses. When PPA is taken with nonsteroidal antiinflammatories (NSAIDs), the risk of hypertension increases and my dog was taking a lot of NSAIDS at the time. My vet never told me that PPA should not be taken with NSAIDS. Obviously, a lot of dogs take PPA with no problem, but if your dog develops strange symptoms, stop the drug and do NOT use it with NSAIDS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have any medical advice, but I did want to say good luck and hang in there. It can be so frustrating when you're not sure what's going with your pets.

 

Thanks...I wish dogs could talk it would make life so much easier lol. But then I would hear fetchfetchfetch all the time!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brookitar - first I just want to say that I totally sympathize with you. This can be such a frustrating issue to deal with! My Sheltie mix has spay incontinence (first started consistently showing symptoms about 3.5 years ago), and it took a while to figure out a good option for her. If your dog does have spay incontinence, you should be noticing inappropriate peeing mostly when she is asleep (as in, she'll wake up in a puddle). If she's peeing while she's awake, it most likely isn't spay incontinence, but could be a uti or a behavioral issue.

 

It does sound like you might need a new vet. I see that you are in Texas... I'm in Austin, and if you are around here, I can help you with some recommendations. If you are elsewhere in Texas, I can network through my agility contacts to get a recommendation for you.

 

For my girl, i tried some herbal treatments first (my vet uses conventional western medicine, Chinese herbs, and accupuncture in her practice). What has been working for us is a daily dose of corn silk (you can buy it In capsule form). Anja has been on corn silk for about three years now, and she's been leak free for as long. It's worked awesomely for us!

 

Before we got everything under control, I did notice that a strenuous workout would make her more prone to having a leak...

 

Best of luck, and hang in there!

 

 

I live in Austin too! What vet are you seeing?

 

Its so hard to tell if its incontinence she has only done this once during bedtime. I'm leaning more towards a behavioral problem. Since we have put our cat with the other cats in the vacation home the peeing has stopped in our apartment. I also threw away a few of her toys the cat decided to pee on. I'm wondering if this was some weird female cat vs female dog territorial war?

 

However I have noticed when she does come back from the strenuous activity accidents are way more common. Tomorrow I get my plastic couch covers and she will have a full day of running at doggy daycare so I can test my territorial behavior peeing theory.

 

I'll have to start giving her those if she really is having those issues after a month of treatment. I prefer a more natural treatment. Right now I give her raw eggs, fish oil, and coconut oil more for the outside of her skin. My Effie has terrible allergies and gets dandruff easily.

 

Thank you for the support!

 

Off subject but where do you go to agility in Austin? Effie is taking her first foundations agility class next Saturday at Hearts and Paws. I was wondering where people who do agility (non-beginners unlike me) go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...