Jump to content
BC Boards

Border Collies and Chasing


Recommended Posts

I'm hesitant to use my experiences with my dogs as an example here, since that seemed to be frowned upon in the previous thread, but I'm going to do so anyway since I have no other way to explain what I've gone through with them and I really do need help- this seems to be more on topic, so maybe it will be okay? I do not want to seem self-serving in any way.

 

We must all speak from our own experiences, Christina, so I don't see you as self-serving in any way. :D Thank you for rejoining the conversation.

 

...... I base my opinion on what I have seen her do to the car (she stares at it and circles until it moves). After bringing Maizee home, true to the warnings, she started herding the cats and cars. .... Unfortunately, I am the only one willing to give her an earful if she does go after the cars. The rest of my family just watches with mild interest. :rolleyes:

 

In my humble observation, I see two things: a dog who moves in a fashion that resembles stock work, because that's how border collies move, but her intent has nothing to do with "herding." She's still chasing/playing, no matter what physical stance she assumes. And I see a dog that, sadly, gets mixed signals from the family. That's a shame, because as we know, a border collie is smart enough to figure out when a rule applies with Person A, but not with Person B or C. That lack of consistency does not teach the dog that a rule is absolute. Makes it hard for any sort of training.

 

But again, I don't see that her behaviors have any link to whether she's working-bred. Her reactive behaviors are due to environment, not instinct. Someone let her learn a bad thing, and it's far, far harder to undo a bad habit once formed, than to forbid the habit ever starting in the first place. I commend you for continuing to try.

 

Interestingly, I have noticed that taking Pilot away from Maizee for a long period of time (twenty-four hours or more) cuts back on his reactivity to passing vehicles, though he has a *thing* for bicycles that he came up with all on his own.

 

Of course that's what you see. He learned the behavior from Maizee and she is his primary trigger. My Nick and Gael have a ridiculous game of chase-and-stalk that I sometimes regret allowing. Without Gael, Nick trots along on walks like a normal dog. With Gael, he runs out to crouch and stare at her, until she bolts and they both run ahead. Gael is Nick's trigger. He never showed this behavior until Gael came into our lives, and he only plays this game with her. So, Pilot has adopted and elaborated on the behavior he's learned from Maizee.

 

And yes, BCs are fully capable of coming up with their own neurosis. My old girl, Rose, went from a phobia of cats walking on metal roofs to a panic over even the sound of an aluminum extension ladder. Strange little creatures, our BCs ... :D

 

Are there some dogs who are so driven to work that they would be unsatisfied in a pet home, simply because they obsess rather than work?

 

No. Because if a dog has never seen sheep, they don't know what work is. BCs become unsatisfied in pet homes because they are bored and uninvolved. It's not enough to throw the ball three times a day to keep a border collie happy. Pet border collies need to be engaged, interacted with, educated and trained, given an active, structured life, and be made a vital part of their people's lives. Obsessions seem to evolve, IMHO, because the dog is left too much to his own devices.

 

ETA: Gloria, chasing is not herding- but what is the relationship between herding and prey drive? Is there a relationship?

 

Again in my humble opinion, there may be a hair to split, here. I see prey drive as the urge to chase, catch and kill something. What we see in border collies, though, may be an adaptation of ancient hunting instincts, minus the attack or kill. As I posted earlier, a way to look at it is this: the outrun is to encircle and take control. The fetch after the outrun is to bring the "prey" to the pack. (You.) And the border collie's famous crouch and "eye" could be seen as mimicking stalking behavior. BUT ... the prey drive has been unplugged. There is no chase. There is no kill. There is no urge to draw blood.

 

Ideally, that is. :D Some nice runs got spoiled at Finals when the dogs got frustrated and gripped. But even then, that's not prey drive, that's just simple frustration.

 

That's my possibly flawed outlook, anyhow. Prey drive suggests an urge to bite, rend and tear. Border collies have been bred to omit those lethal urges. I think it's erroneous to say "prey drive" when a milder term would suffice. Modified hunting/stalking behaviors, possibly. Prey drive, not so much.

 

Just my take!

 

Since all dogs can have impulse control problems, are some dogs more prone to those problems than others? Is impulse control a "personal thing" or a "breed thing"? (Given an owner who will not do a great job teaching impulse control, is a Golden Retriever more likely to have a problem than a Havanese?)

 

Okay, I've been typing and re-typing here for half an hour, trying to compose my thoughts, and I've come to this. I think impulse control in dogs is a "people thing." I think it's unfair to label any one breed as having more impulse control problems than another breed. What I do see are countless cases of people simply choosing the wrong breed for them.

 

It's not that border collies (or Jack Russells or German Shorthairs, ad infinitum) are more prone to impulse control problems. It's that people fail to grasp the breed they've got, and place unreasonable expectations on it. John Q is an idiot if he expects a border collie to be happy living 12 hours a day in a 1-bedroom apartment. He's also an idiot if he expects a Lhasa Apso to hunt bears. People need to get educated in the nature and purpose of the dog in question. If they're convinced a border collie (or whatever) is honestly the dog for them, they need to learn the skills it takes to build a solid, happy, well-balanced companion.

 

People who will not do a great job teaching impulse control should, by all means, avoid the active, intelligent breeds who require a full-time human in their lives. In fact, if these people really can't pull it off, they should stick to owning cats. Or hamsters. Or even pet snakes. :D

 

Them's my thoughts, anyhow. Humans have created domestic dogs as canids in an arrested state of puppyhood. Therefore it's on us to teach them the ways of the human pack. If we fail ... it's not the fault of the dog or its breed.

 

I apparently have way too much time to think about stuff like this. :D

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 99
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I completely agree with what many have said: a lot of these issues (car or cat chasing) aren't necessarily inherent to Border collies. Personally I think you're likelier to find them in sports-bred Border collies than in working-bred ones (impulse control is essential in the latter, as should be obvious to anyone who watched the Finals this past weekend). More than anything else, these sorts of problems stem from a lack of training at some point in the past, or an inability on the owner's part to anticipate a problem as it's beginning to develop.

 

Cat chasing. Duncan's breeder had a cat that was friendly to the dogs, so Duncan wanted to make friends with our cat when he first got home. Our cat, however, was NOT familiar with dogs, and thought we'd brought a Horrible Beast home. So Duncan's initial attempts to make friends were rebuffed quite soundly. He then decided that since the cat wouldn't play, maybe he should chase it. We responded with a firm "NO!", picking him up and locking him in the bathroom for 20 seconds at a time. It really only took about four repeats before he learned that chasing the cat was No Fun. (Border collies really are amazingly smart). I'm sure if we'd let him get accustomed to chasing the cat, it would have taken us a lot longer. What's the phrase, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? They're still not as good friends as Duncan would like them to be; he still greets the cat with a gently waving tail, only to occasionally be rebuffed, but the cat has gotten much more friendly towards him as time has gone on.

 

Cars. We noticed when he was about three months old that he was starting to react to cars, walking faster, pulling at the leash. The trainer recommended we reverse directions whenever he did this, but it really wasn't practical on a busy road. So - we eliminated the busy road from our walks. Sometimes we'd sit a short block away from the busy road and give him treats whenever cars went by. Later, at about eight months of age, he seemed nervous when cars went by. Not pulling, but his body language changed as they approached - he "skulked" a bit with his belly closer to the ground, signaling his unease. More treats, more effort to stick to roads with fewer cars. When cars did come by, "sit" and get fed treats. Eventually, with maturation, he realized cars were no big deal and now he's oblivious to them.

 

Other fast-moving objects. We took him on a lot of walks in parks where he'd encounter bicycles, skateboards, joggers, roller blades as soon as the vet gave his blessing (in terms of immunities). We restricted these walks to parks where dogs were required to be on leash - I don't believe pups (or undersocialized dogs, for that matter) have any business being in parks where a lot of dogs are off-leash until they're older (or, in the case of adult dogs, until you know what to expect of them). We gave him tons of treats every time a bicycle, skateboard, etc. went by (and had him sit in the process). He still has to sit on our off-leash walks whenever children, leashed dogs, bicyclists, or joggers come by.

 

Dogs. There was a period when he was ~ 8-10 months old when he whined whenever he saw another dog and lost focus, had a lot of trouble paying attention in obedience classes. He'd had surgery and had been on restricted activities, and (I think) missed being able to play with other dogs. We took a "Control Unleashed" class, worked on the "Look at That" trick (especially). It helped a LOT to be able to turn a "trigger" for something that was making him lose focus into a trigger that made him focus on me to get a treat. Ultimately, whether it was the class or maturation, he got through that phase, about the time when the exercise restrictions eased and we started a lot of off-leash walks. He mostly ignores other dogs, other than to give them a quick sniff. He's happy to play if they initiate it, but other dogs simply aren't a big deal one way or the other.

 

Nipping. When he was a small pup, he'd occasionally try to nip the hem of our pants or our ankles. We would stop and tell him it was RUDE. He hates to be told that something he's doing is RUDE. It was just one of those puppy things, like jumping up on people, that went away when we were consistent about discouraging it.

 

"Herding". He's never shown any tendency to "herd" other dogs. If he's playing with them, he'll do "play bows" and try to entice them into playing the "chase game". If there's a stick or a ball, he'll totally ignore other dogs. I've taught him "not your ball" so that if we're at the park and another dog has a tendency to guard that resource, he knows it's not his turn and to wait for me to throw something for him. It keeps him out of hot water as he's usually faster than any other dog around, and some dogs don't appreciate having their ball stolen from under their noses.

 

Impulse control. I think dogs improve in their ability to control their impulses, both with practice and with maturity. There was a phase when he wanted to bolt out our back door more than anything on earth and run free through our (wooded) back yard. I wasn't willing to allow a pup to bolt at the door. We spent a long time negotiating - he had to sit before the door would open, if his rear left the ground the door would close again. We weren't getting much of anywhere with this after several weeks (other than mutually frustrated). We gave it a "bye" for a few months. Worked on impulse control in other ways - "stay" while a ball was being bounced or thrown, lie down to play "catch" instead of "fetch". As he matured, we suddenly discovered that yes, he'd "sit" at the back door until it was opened, "sit" again on command as soon as he went outside, wait until he heard a "walk on" command to go to a corner of the yard, "lie down" until he heard the magic words "go play" - and then launch himself up the hill. It wasn't really trained that way, it just happened when he was mature enough. Choose your battles and defer some of them until the dog is mature enough so that your wishes override the siren song of whatever the distraction is.

 

We're still working on impulse control, and he's a year and a half old. He loves the part of our off-leash walks when we come to a stream where he knows other dogs are playing and where people will throw sticks or balls. As we get close to the stream, and he hears dogs barking happily, his body language completely changes, and he starts to forget that I exist. He pauses before returning when I call him back. He wants to bolt to the stream. I don't want him to because someday he's going to run through a bunch of small children standing there and scatter them like ninepins. I could put him on a leash, but this wouldn't let him learn to control his impulses. "Heeling" offleash is more than he can stand under these circumstances, though. So, I make him "lie down", and I walk ahead a ways, then call him to me, and repeat the process until we reach the stream and I can tell that the coast is clear. Over time, we get closer and closer before I have to tell him he needs to "lie down".

 

Bottom lines. Basically I'm a firm believer in consistency, in trying to read a dog's body language to gauge its state, and in trying to anticipate problems. If you leave a dog in a fenced yard all day unsupervised on a road where cars go by, sure, you'll likely end up with a car chaser/fence runner. If you allow them to nip at your kids' ankles when they run, then you'll have a dog that will nip a neighbor's kid someday soon and will likely end up in rescue. If you let a dog start to dig up rocks, you'll end up with a dog with ruined teeth and a habit that can't be broken. If you aren't consistent, then they'll do whatever they feel like, and you'll probably rue the consequences. It's a lot like raising kids.

 

I'm also a firm believer in obedience training for pet dogs. If you have a Border collie, and you aren't doing stockwork with it, or agility... then do it a favor, and sign it up for a beginner obedience class. And then an intermediate one. And then an advanced one. I don't care whether the tricks are useless in the grand scheme of things. You're learning to communicate with your dog; he or she is learning to communicate with you, and to try to please you; and he or she is exercising their brain, which is every bit as important for these dogs (if not more) than exercising their bodies. My favorite dog training program on TV is Victoria Stilwell's "It's Me or the Dog", and time after time you see problems that stem from a lack of training and a lack of consistency. The owners are at wits' ends, and so often it's a matter of retraining the owners perhaps even more than the dogs. Even if YOU think you know how to train a dog - do the other members of your household? Dog training has changed a LOT since the days when I first took a dog through a basic obedience class. Yes, you can read all you need from a book you can get out of the library for free. But, if you don't have the discipline that comes from the fear of having your dog shown up in class each week because you haven't been practicing your assignments, you're really not progressing with its training, and you may even be allowing bad habits to become ingrained. A good dog trainer can help in so many ways that the best book in the world really can't. So, personally, I think obedience classes (plural) should be mandatory for anyone thinking of owning a Border collie as a pet. It really pays off. I don't think there's been a day yet when I've taken Duncan for a walk when someone doesn't comment on how well-behaved he is, or what a sweet dog he is. I tell them he's still a work in progress, or that well, at least he listens better than my kids do...

 

I know it's a lot tougher when you take on adult dogs who have been allowed to develop bad habits. I think you just have to adopt the sort of approach I've always used with my kids. "I'm sorry that all your friends are allowed to do X and you aren't. You were just born into the wrong family. This is the rule in our house". As long as the message is conveyed, calmly and with great consistency, dogs (like kids) will eventually learn to resign themselves to our capricious rules. You just have to hope it's not an OCD-type behavior that has become ingrained, because the re-training experience will be a LOT harder.

 

OK, off my soapbox...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alchemist, I think that soap box was put to darned good use. :rolleyes: You've hit on the most salient point of all, I think: recognizing the budding of a undesired behavior and nipping it before it can become ingrained. That's the point I think people miss, and why a lot of otherwise nice dogs end up in rescue. People can't/don't see the warnings, fail to be consistent in their attempts to stop a behavior, and then wonder why they end up with a dog they can't control.

 

Well put. :D

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I so appreciate all the advice. Answer to the playing outside - she won't fetch a ball, toy or anything outside at this point. She wants to dig and look for deer poop. She is an BC/aussie mix - very smart but bouncy and short term attention span. Life is a ball to her. The only outside game I can get her to play is with the jolly ball - where I pull both her and Cody up the hill - say "I won" when I get to the top and then she and Cody both prance the ball back down the hill. You should see my muscles. If I do this enough - she will play tug with Cody - but shortly goes off to dig. She also goes for a 7 mile walk every morning with my husband. On returning - she prances around like she has done nothing. Duchess won't allow any leg nipping from Boots, Cody sometimes, Grace never stops Boots at all.

 

I will try to teach her outside play - by herself - letting her play with Grace last when the time comes. One of the things I started to do with her is the touch command - to redirect her. Touches my right hand and she get a treat. I chuckle to myself - looking back at all the dogs - even Jake who passed in 2008 of old age - he had issues when he was young that we had to deal with, but by the time he was an adult everyone thought he was the perfect dog. Just needs consistency and work. Thanks for the suggestions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know how to move post so I've just copied my post here:

That makes sense- but what about car chasers? I have two. The female started chasing cars in her first home (got hit twice, they gave her up, and so on and so forth). She proceeded to teach my male BC to chase cars. A BC pup with heavy working lines put into a suburban pet home absolutely has the potential to develop obsessions of that sort (shadow chasing, car chasing, cat herding, etc)- more so than a dog without any instinct, I would assume. I'm just curious what the general consensus is on this type of thing.

I think I can say something here that may be useful, since I know tons of BCs of FCI lineage that don’t herd. I also know quite a few BCs that work stock.

 

1. The thing about chasing cars has to do with the chase instinct not the herding instinct. Herding instinct is very complex, chase instinct is very simple: it moves - I chase it. BCs do not chase cars because they want to herd. They chase cars because they want to chase.

 

2. Chasing car problem has less to do with what lines the BCs come from and a lot to do with how they were bought up. Inside every normal BC there is a car chaser. The owner always must be on the look out for the development of car chasing mania. You do not step in when the dog begins to chase cars. You step in when the dog looks at a car or anything that moves that isn’t the stick you’ve just thrown for the dog.

 

3. Working BC breeders do not ever breed for chasing instinct, they breed for herding instinct. However, breeders who breed for sports often breed indirectly for chasing because they want a dog with passion to fetch. Further, sports owners cultivate the desire to chase by teaching throwing sticks and toys for the dog since early puppyhood. Livestock owners do not cultivate the chasing instinct. A dog with a strong chase instinct is a pain in many parts of the body. Playing fetch is something discouraged for a future herding dog.

 

4. So a person taking a BC for non-stock work should be prepared that unless they take a BC that was crossed with a turtle, they must be ready for the problem. A young dog left in the yard alone where there are cars passing by will develop the car chasing mania.

 

5. From my own experience, the best way to bring up a puppy is the way they are brought up by sheep herding people – regardless of the future purpose of the dog. It allows in the first period of the dog's life to firmly establish a proper relationship with the owners.

 

I hope this helps .

 

Maja

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My second post moved here from a diffrent topic:

 

 

 

Hi Maja,

I don't understand how this could be true. I agree with everything else you said- but based on what I have seen from my Border Collie, I know she is herding (not just chasing) the cars she goes after. If somebody pulls into our driveway, she will get in front of that car and circle the front in an attempt to make it turn around- just as she would do with sheep. I know she is herding because I see her do this on one other non-sheep object- other dogs. Since I usually have my dogs with me while I'm out pet sitting, I stop by the dog park occasionally to let them burn some energy (and no, I'm not trying to get into the debate about dog parks- I've been going for years and mine do just fine there). This is where Maizee will herd the other dogs. She circles around those that stand still and chases those who do not. My question there is, would that mean when she circles she is herding and when she chases she is chasing? If a stockdog is running out for a fetch, is he chasing or herding? Does the herding begin when he actually gets to the sheep? I suppose since the goal of the dog is the bring the stock back to the handler, it would be herding- but at some point, that dog is actually chasing to accomplish his goal.

 

I can't tell of course for sure without actually seeing the dog. But Julie pointed out a more appropriate word - prey drive. I can tell with one of my BCs - she was our first BC and we failed to stop the bad habit from developing. She also has a very good herding instinct. But in her, in one dog, I can see that they are two different things - the car - it's the chase and kill, and the cat is chase and kill. The sheep - it's working stock. I can see it so clearly with Kelly, because it's one and the same dog, and it's two entirely different frames of mind for her.

 

It does happen occasionally, particularly in a beginning dog that the prey instinct kicks in during herding, and it's not good, not good at all. And you can see in a herding dog if the prey-drive kicks in it's different. But because the herding instinct is to some extent based on the prey instinct - they look similar, and I suppose there may be some confused dogs and indeed herd things other than livestock. But I think, it is very rare, and all the dogs I have seen they chase cars, not herd them. (I don't know what is the general opinion on the forum concerning herding, but my opinion is that herding is not "pray drive without the kill button" but that it is a very complex behavior that includes nurturing and protection behavior. Many KC folk (and some ISDS) would argue with me forever about it so I gave up).

 

That makes sense, but it would seem that some dogs are more predisposed to chase cars than others. Though every bored dog might revert to eventually chasing a car, some would arrive at the car chasing conclusion far before the more intense dogs who are bored more easily, which was the point I was trying to convey. No?

I agree with you. I was just tying to point out that while the stockdog breeders do not breed for pray drive, the sports breeders do. Also people who don't watch what drives they are breeding also sometimes accidentally do.

 

but both have turned into fantastic disc dogs with a little work. I'm sure that would make them a growing pain as working dogs- but they're not, so that's a nonissue.

Not necessarily. Assuming, they had instinct, if they were from the beginning trained on stock and prepared for working stock, they would have the prey drive curbed while they would develop other skills. Without stock there is no need to curb anything in relation to chasing UFOs and grabbing them, and they can make excellent disc dogs.

 

Maja

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will try to teach her outside play - by herself - letting her play with Grace last when the time comes. One of the things I started to do with her is the touch command - to redirect her. Touches my right hand and she get a treat. I chuckle to myself - looking back at all the dogs - even Jake who passed in 2008 of old age - he had issues when he was young that we had to deal with, but by the time he was an adult everyone thought he was the perfect dog. Just needs consistency and work. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

I would recommend that - work on teaching her to play outside. Just you and her, no other dogs. And I'd suggest working on several different types of play.

 

Again, from my own experience, this was the key with Dean. At first all he wanted to do was chase and try to tackle Speedy. That is not an option. I mean, chasing is OK (as long as he respects Speedy's space, as he does now), but not the tackling.

 

For at least a month, Dean had his own separate play sessions with me outside. At first he was distracted by the environment. We kept the sessions short and I reinforced him for engaging in play in whatever way was best.

 

Once he learned to play outdoors with me on his own, he began to play appropriately with the other dogs. I'm not saying it would be that simple in every case, but in his it did the trick nicely. Once he knew how to play on his own, he was able to play the same games with the other dogs present. Before he knew how to play on his own, he fixated on the other dogs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At first he was distracted by the environment. We kept the sessions short and I reinforced him for engaging in play in whatever way was best.

 

Yes, short is key IMO. Stop when your dog is still having fun focusing on you or whatever game you're playing with her- and for some dogs this will be after about 1 minute at first. When I first started with Kipp I'd literally play for a minute then end the session.

 

Any sort of focus work outside with Grace is great right now, just keep it highly rewarding to the dog and quit before she looses interest. Take 6-8 hot dog pieces and give them one at a time for glancing at you. Then go back inside. Maybe the first time you'll just stand in the doorway or just outside the door when you do this - what ever it takes so she is more interested in you and her reward than she is in her surroundings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again in my humble opinion, there may be a hair to split, here. I see prey drive as the urge to chase, catch and kill something. What we see in border collies, though, may be an adaptation of ancient hunting instincts, minus the attack or kill. As I posted earlier, a way to look at it is this: the outrun is to encircle and take control. The fetch after the outrun is to bring the "prey" to the pack. (You.) And the border collie's famous crouch and "eye" could be seen as mimicking stalking behavior. BUT ... the prey drive has been unplugged. There is no chase. There is no kill. There is no urge to draw blood.expects a Lhasa Apso to hunt bears. Gloria

Now I will get in trouble again for making an OT, but, I can move my posts again if necessary :rolleyes: . But I find this problem very interesting. Of course I do not deny the element of prey drive, but as I wrote I have a dog that has a very strong herding instinct and a very strong chasing instinct. They are to me very distinct. When she chases a cat it's chase, catch, and kill indeed with the kill button off. She does not kill cats. When she herds it's something else - something quite distinct in her behavior and her frame of mind. This is a very striking inconsistency to me - if herding is prey drive why does she behave different with cats and squirrels and differently with stock? Someone mentioned lure chasing and I think it's a very good example.

 

The things that I find inconsistent with hunting in herding are the following:

 

1. Picking on the flock leader. My dog always with a new flock picks out the flock leader and makes sure he or she submits to her. I think (though I may be wrong of course) from the point of view of hunting it's not such a good ides to pick on the strongest flock member when there are myriad hapless lambs on the periphery helpless and not protected by their mothers any more.

 

2. Ignoring the lambs. With the dogs I've seen very small lambs have a sort of "lamb's license".

 

3. Bringing the strays back to the flock. Ok, I can understand that if a sheep strays, it's good to bring it to the leader to eat it. But back to the flock? Where ther is safety in numbers? But I have seen the hunting instinct kick in in dogs in that situation and the the whole effort was to keep the sheep away from the flock.

 

4. Bringing the flock to the leader. I have watched many movies about nature, but I have not seen any predator hunting by trying to bring the whole herd to the pack. the key was to separate one from the pack. because the whole herd is together, if they are forced to fight they will fight. I am sure you we seen it happen with the sheep.

And you can't eat a whole herd at once anyhow.

 

I would be very interested to hear your opinions on this, because I have been wondering about it a lot. I have heard many stories about the caring attitude of the BCs towards the flock including a male who licked and dried a newborn lamb and then guarded it because the ewe had trouble with its twin. In this caring respect is the meeting point between the border collies and LGDs in my opinion.

 

Maja

P.S. Of course now here chasing is very much under control.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, let me say that I know wolves aren’t dogs. They are very different. But herding behavior had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from?

 

I have read descriptions of wolves hunting co-operatively by finding a likely group of large ungulates and monitoring them for the most vulnerable individual. Some say weakest, but I might quibble with that. The most vulnerable may simply be momentarily inattentive, or, as in the case of wild horses, an obstreperous yearling chased outside the periphery of the group as a disciplinary action by a dominant mare. In any case there is evidence that they were a favorite menu item of early man.

 

Having selected a target animal, the wolves sometimes simply rush it, but in other cases they may split up and fan out while one wolf cuts the target away from the herd and starts it moving into the path of circling pack members.

 

I can see humans using early hunting dogs to hunt large prey in this way – that is with the human spooking the vulnerable animal away and into the jaws of his canine helpers. This would seem to be a possible genesis for developing outrun, flanking and even shedding strategies, which could be fine-tuned for use on domestic animals as humans transitioned from being hunters of wild meals to being herders of domestic ones.

 

Chasing prey is something that a stalk and ambush hunter, like the leopard and the cheetah would do. Wolves also kill singly – even large prey is taken this way. But wolves hunt cooperatively much of the time, and commonly use “flanking” moves. Cooperative hunting means less wear and tear on individual hunters and, I suspect, a higher percentage of kills per “start.” Also, the wolf that loses control and simply starts to chase at the beginning of a hunt often spoils the game.

 

Chasing is more appropriate for smaller game sought by single wolves such as rabbits, very young ungulates or rodents. (Although I have actually seen coyotes, hunting in pairs, run down Jack Rabbits by running them in circles in relays.) The wolf may have an even chance of outrunning this game, whereas the longer-legged and seasoned adult prey can often get away if not managed carefully by a seasoned adult wolf.

 

Anyway, I can see both chasing and other styles of hunting coexisting in the modern Border Collie, although I think it can be assumed that chasing would be selected against in actual working lines.

 

I realize that plausibility does not necessarily equal “the real story,” but are there some of you who know about the very early development of stock dogs who could comment on these apparent similarities between hunting and working "styles"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know you keep saying you don't understand why the term herding doesn't apply to dogs/toddlers/cars, but I think this shows you aren't getting a lot of what goes into herding. It involves control of moving entities by the dog, but it also involves taking direction from the handler. Showing self-restraint. Understanding the effects of pressure on the flock and on different entities within the flock. Doing a job in a useful way. Taking time and developing a good pace. I mention this to point out why I don't think breeding for stockwork creates a dog who's likely to have LESS self control or be more likely to obsess, and probably creates a dog more likely on average to be well-balanced enough to easily achieve this kind of control.

 

Now I will get in trouble again for making an OT, but, I can move my posts again if necessary :D . But I find this problem very interesting. Of course I do not deny the element of prey drive, but as I wrote I have a dog that has a very strong herding instinct and a very strong chasing instinct. They are to me very distinct. When she chases a cat it's chase, catch, and kill indeed with the kill button off. She does not kill cats. When she herds it's something else - something quite distinct in her behavior and her frame of mind. This is a very striking inconsistency to me - if herding is prey drive why does she behave different with cats and squirrels and differently with stock? Someone mentioned lure chasing and I think it's a very good example.

 

I hate to press this issue even further since it is not likely to serve in my favor, but I am still not convinced that my dog is chasing rather than herding.

 

To clarify what I mean when I say she herds the cat, I am talking about this:

 

This is not my dog, but the movements are very similar to what my dog does (except when the cat sits still, Maizee also sits and simply stares rather than paces). If the cat moves, Maizee does not chase- she follows, circling around the cat. If the cat runs, Maizee will then chase. I see two different drives in that alone and one of them looks a heck of a lot like the drive to herd (in my opinion)!

 

I see similar behavior when she herds other dogs, and when she herds cars. When she catches up with a car, she gets in front of the car as if in an attempt to turn it around. If I understand what you're saying, that means she succombing to the chase drive to catch up to the car, but then employs the herding drive in her attempt to turn the car around.

 

With Kipp I put a prong collar and long line on him on took him near where the cats would hang out (at this time most of the cats were barn cats and and the one house cat had plenty of place to hang out far away from him) When he went to chase after a cat it would be self correcting as soon as he hit the end ( I never let him go more than 6-8 ft so he hurt himself any more than the prong correction) I'd then call him back to me and heavily reward him for coming back. Basically chasing cats was very bad, paying attention to me was very good. This did take a while because the habit was ingrained and he is a tough little dog in many ways.

 

Thank you Maralynn! Regarding the above paragraph, what would you do in a situation where the dog is not actually chasing (simply obsessing over) the cat? Self-correcting is out of the question, since she doesn't do much moving when she is "working".

 

Both of my dogs were horrible car chasers when we adopted each of them. Some of that

behavior, I'm sure, is because of the herding instinct, somewhere way down deep, but I

believe that most of it came about because the foster homes were fenced on busy

streets and they weren't properly supervised. It was very difficult to break Maggie and

it took probably a year before I felt confident that she wouldn't feel the urge any longer.

During our walks, she was, and still is, made to sit-stay if a car, bike, motorcycle or even

another dog walks past in any direction. Sit... eye contact... treat...move when I move, not

before.

 

Great example Mike! What would you do for a dog that wasn't too food motivated? If focused, both of my dogs turn their noses up at even the most alluring treats. If not focused, they are hit or miss with working for food. Sometimes the food is worth it, sometimes it isn't. Might this be a situation where I should start off with a "one minute" session and advance from there?

 

In my humble observation, I see two things: a dog who moves in a fashion that resembles stock work, because that's how border collies move, but her intent has nothing to do with "herding." She's still chasing/playing, no matter what physical stance she assumes.

 

Thank you Glorida. As I responded above, I don't want to cause a problem by pressing the issue but I still don't understand how what I am seeing out of my dog is chasing rather than herding.

 

Of course that's what you see. He learned the behavior from Maizee and she is his primary trigger. My Nick and Gael have a ridiculous game of chase-and-stalk that I sometimes regret allowing. Without Gael, Nick trots along on walks like a normal dog. With Gael, he runs out to crouch and stare at her, until she bolts and they both run ahead. Gael is Nick's trigger. He never showed this behavior until Gael came into our lives, and he only plays this game with her. So, Pilot has adopted and elaborated on the behavior he's learned from Maizee.

 

Of course it was the fastest thing he ever learned. :rolleyes: I have the opposite problem when I'm walking my two. When Maizee isn't present, Pilot "Yeehaws" on ahead. When she is, he sticks by me and has a fantastic recall.

 

Again in my humble opinion, there may be a hair to split, here. I see prey drive as the urge to chase, catch and kill something. What we see in border collies, though, may be an adaptation of ancient hunting instincts, minus the attack or kill. As I posted earlier, a way to look at it is this: the outrun is to encircle and take control. The fetch after the outrun is to bring the "prey" to the pack. (You.) And the border collie's famous crouch and "eye" could be seen as mimicking stalking behavior. BUT ... the prey drive has been unplugged. There is no chase. There is no kill. There is no urge to draw blood.

 

I see a rather significant similarity between the African Wild Dogs in this video and the way Border Collies work, so I can definitly buy that the herding drive is an adaptation of ancient hunting instincts. Thank you for clarifying!

 

It does happen occasionally, particularly in a beginning dog that the prey instinct kicks in during herding, and it's not good, not good at all. And you can see in a herding dog if the prey-drive kicks in it's different. But because the herding instinct is to some extent based on the prey instinct - they look similar, and I suppose there may be some confused dogs and indeed herd things other than livestock. But I think, it is very rare, and all the dogs I have seen they chase cars, not herd them. (I don't know what is the general opinion on the forum concerning herding, but my opinion is that herding is not "pray drive without the kill button" but that it is a very complex behavior that includes nurturing and protection behavior. Many KC folk (and some ISDS) would argue with me forever about it so I gave up).

I agree with you. I was just tying to point out that while the stockdog breeders do not breed for pray drive, the sports breeders do. Also people who don't watch what drives they are breeding also sometimes accidentally do.

Not necessarily. Assuming, they had instinct, if they were from the beginning trained on stock and prepared for working stock, they would have the prey drive curbed while they would develop other skills. Without stock there is no need to curb anything in relation to chasing UFOs and grabbing them, and they can make excellent disc dogs.

 

Maja

 

Thank you Maja. I'm tempted now to take a video of Maizee and her car chasing to see whether anyone here would actually deem it to be herding vs chasing. I looked for a similar video on YouTube, but couldn't find one.

 

 

First, let me say that I know wolves aren’t dogs. They are very different. But herding behavior had to come from somewhere. So where did it come from?

 

I have read descriptions of wolves hunting co-operatively by finding a likely group of large ungulates and monitoring them for the most vulnerable individual. Some say weakest, but I might quibble with that. The most vulnerable may simply be momentarily inattentive, or, as in the case of wild horses, an obstreperous yearling chased outside the periphery of the group as a disciplinary action by a dominant mare. In any case there is evidence that they were a favorite menu item of early man.

 

Having selected a target animal, the wolves sometimes simply rush it, but in other cases they may split up and fan out while one wolf cuts the target away from the herd and starts it moving into the path of circling pack members.

 

I can see humans using early hunting dogs to hunt large prey in this way – that is with the human spooking the vulnerable animal away and into the jaws of his canine helpers. This would seem to be a possible genesis for developing outrun, flanking and even shedding strategies, which could be fine-tuned for use on domestic animals as humans transitioned from being hunters of wild meals to being herders of domestic ones.

 

Chasing prey is something that a stalk and ambush hunter, like the leopard and the cheetah would do. Wolves also kill singly – even large prey is taken this way. But wolves hunt cooperatively much of the time, and commonly use “flanking” moves. Cooperative hunting means less wear and tear on individual hunters and, I suspect, a higher percentage of kills per “start.” Also, the wolf that loses control and simply starts to chase at the beginning of a hunt often spoils the game.

 

Chasing is more appropriate for smaller game sought by single wolves such as rabbits, very young ungulates or rodents. (Although I have actually seen coyotes, hunting in pairs, run down Jack Rabbits by running them in circles in relays.) The wolf may have an even chance of outrunning this game, whereas the longer-legged and seasoned adult prey can often get away if not managed carefully by a seasoned adult wolf.

 

Anyway, I can see both chasing and other styles of hunting coexisting in the modern Border Collie, although I think it can be assumed that chasing would be selected against in actual working lines.

 

I realize that plausibility does not necessarily equal “the real story,” but are there some of you who know about the very early development of stock dogs who could comment on these apparent similarities between hunting and working "styles"?

 

I linked the video above, but I'll repost it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWvDg92qTEQ.

 

I'm seeing a similarity between the African Wild Dog's method of hunting and a stockdog's relationship with its handler. No?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm seeing a similarity between the African Wild Dog's method of hunting and a stockdog's relationship with its handler. No?

I own the DVD series that this clip was taken from, "Planet Earth." Good viewing - the entire series.

On the DVD there's a voice-over describing the movements of the disparate elements of the clan's hunt. In this type of video, the bits are cut together in a way that makes it easy for the viewer to follow. It doesn't necessarily present the hunt precisely as it happened. Certainly the dogs do split up for a flanking maneuver, and that is typical of cooperative hunters. The cover made it hard for the helicopter crews to show the hunt as a continuous shot. I would want to see such a shot before making comparisons between this hunt and a gathering or flanking behavior of a Border Collie.

I was struck by the body/head carriage of the dogs in the first part of the clip. The was something of a similarity of the topline, but these dogs moved with a more upright trot, and were higher on the leg with a less angulation, and a floaty motion that continued even when they shifted into high gear in the chase. (The fast-trotting sequences were more reminiscent of an Arabian horse, which tends to be smooth at the walk, lope and gallop, but far too vertical at the trot for the average rider's comfort. :rolleyes: )These animals are gallopers, where I tend to think of the various races of Collies as trotting dogs, built for quick turns and short bursts of speed, rather than an all-out gallop that maintains high speed for extended periods of chasing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very nice video :rolleyes: . Personally, I don't see anything contrary to what I wrote earlier about herding in BCs and its inconsistencies with hunting. I should repeat however, that I do think there are hunting elements in herding.

Maja

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to throw this idea into the ring - is it possible that the car chasing is a result of the Border collies breeding to be motion sensitive and some of them are more motion sensitive than others.

 

When I adopted Brody at 3.5 he was a car chaser, he was really bad at night with the head lights. Today he is still interested in the cars going by, but does not chase, to the point where we are not worried if he is off leash with us out at the front of the house. Brody was what we took to calling a Bored Collie , he had been loved and well cared for in his first home, but they had no clue what it took to keep him interested.

 

The only thing we did that was specific to cars was to have him down when a car was coming by. But in the rest of his live he was learning to think. Examples of this included agility, learned that dogs fetched not humans ( he had his first family well trained to fetch if he did not like the throw), and lots of simple things. I have worked with some of the Control Unleashed exercises. It has all been about learning control and focus.

 

He is always going to be motion sensitive, and we have learned to let some of it go ( we feel we can not win every battle ). I realized how far we had come this weekend when we took part in what was only our second 2 ring agility trial. I could not figure out what was wrong in the first two runs he had no focus, was just on a different planet. On the third run we clicked after I growled at him on the start line for focusing on the dog in the other ring, we had a great run. I was ring working after that run and realized what was happening, he could see the dogs in the other ring, masters level Border Collies who were flying. Last time we went to this trial venue which is a indoor soccer venue they had the curtains ( used to prevent balls crossing into the different fields) pulled. Our last run a Jumpers class was probably the best run we have ever done, it was just right. I was thrilled that my weird little dog stayed with me, a year ago he would have been over that ring divider and in pursuit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to throw this idea into the ring - is it possible that the car chasing is a result of the Border collies breeding to be motion sensitive and some of them are more motion sensitive than others.

I had pointed this out in the other thread, but didn't bother to move my posts over as I figured this was just going to be another one of those circular discussions. If someone is convinced their dog is herding, regardless of the fact that no stock are involved, then no other plausible explanation, like reactivity to motion (which is a *part* of the herding instinct, but not the whole thing, or even the largest part, is going to matter).

 

I also asked the question: What about the other breeds (in my specific example, labs, a St. Bernard, and a german shepherd) who also run in front of cars to try to stop them? Are they herding too? Or is it herding only when a herding breed is doing it? I got no answer to that one either, not surprisingly.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Maralynn! Regarding the above paragraph, what would you do in a situation where the dog is not actually chasing (simply obsessing over) the cat? Self-correcting is out of the question, since she doesn't do much moving when she is "working".

 

I tell the dog to go lay down or stick it in it's crate for a while. My oldest dog (who is free in the house with a cat or two) likes to eye and stalk the cats. Sometimes I let her if she's being calm and quiet about it but if they are getting annoyed I tell her to knock it off and go lay down, I may give them something to chew on to help redirect their attention. If a dog wouldn't I'd remove them from the situation.

 

I would cal what you're seeing is the Border Collie "eye" and stalking behavior. Those are part of the instincts that are used in herding work, but only part. Herding involves actually controlling and working in conjunction with a handler.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had pointed this out in the other thread, but didn't bother to move my posts over as I figured this was just going to be another one of those circular discussions. If someone is convinced their dog is herding, regardless of the fact that no stock are involved, then no other plausible explanation, like reactivity to motion (which is a *part* of the herding instinct, but not the whole thing, or even the largest part, is going to matter).

 

I also asked the question: What about the other breeds (in my specific example, labs, a St. Bernard, and a german shepherd) who also run in front of cars to try to stop them? Are they herding too? Or is it herding only when a herding breed is doing it? I got no answer to that one either, not surprisingly.

 

J.

 

Seeing as how I have only ever owned a car chasing Border Collie, I am not familiar with the chasing habits of other breeds. I do believe there is potentially a different motive for the chase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To clarify what I mean when I say she herds the cat, I am talking about this:

 

My BC engages in the same behavior (mostly with squirrels). As does my pitbull mix. It's stalking, not herding.

 

The predatory sequence consists of several behaviors:

 

orient, eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect

 

It is postulated that true herding behavior results from modification of the above predatory sequence. Through selective breeding (of the BC), the individual components of the predatory sequence have been modified and the ratios are changed. So, the BC never (or shouldn't) progresses to the grab-bite, kill-bite, and dissect components of the predation sequence.

 

It is important to remember that these behaviors are all very intrinsically reinforcing to the dog. Dogs derive a buzz from engaging in these behaviors and can become addicted to their own neurochemicals, which is why these behaviors can be so hard to modulate once they are established. And dogs can become stuck in any of these behaviors (i.e the BC that stares at a spot on the wall for hours).

 

I like to think of true herding behavior as achieving the correct ratio of all of the above behaviors thru selective breeding, early life experiences, modifying the environment, and training.

 

And ofcourse, you have to factor biddability (or the desire to please) into the whole thing because these behaviors are so intrinsically reinforcing to the dog (i.e the difference between the dog that flies solo vs works with its master).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seeing as how I have only ever owned a car chasing Border Collie, I am not familiar with the chasing habits of other breeds. I do believe there is potentially a different motive for the chase.

Sure, the lab's motive is to retrieve the car to its owner. The St. Bernard thinks the car is heading into danger (or hopelessly lost) and is trying to stop it from going further into danger (and will offer some whiskey from its keg when it finally gets the car stopped), and the German shepherd, being used mainly for tending in the past, is simply trying to make sure that the car stays within the boundaries of the "graze." The whole point of my comment is to point out that you're ascribing the behaviors your dog(s) has around cars *because* the dog is a border collie. Do the motives I've listed for the other breeds sound plausible? Would they sound plausible to the people who raise, work, and train those breeds? If the dog were some other breed, say a Jack Russel, then you'd have to come up with an alternative explanation for the motive, which it seems you've indicated is exactly what you'd do. Can you see how this makes it seem that you are mainly trying to write your dogs' behaviors off because of their particular breed, rather than the fact that they're dogs--dogs exhibiting behaviors that a lot of other breeds also exhibit? Granted, the St. Bernard isn't crouching as he circles in front of my van, but then if the crouch wasn't a typical border collie behavior (at least for those border collies that aren't upright workers), you wouldn't be using it now to try to shore up your belief that your dog is herding cars.

 

Why is it so difficult to believe that reactivity to motion--a trait shared across a number of breeds--is, if not the full reason, at least as likely as the actual breed of the dog (in this case a border collie) to be an explanation for car chasing?

 

I still think the whole "blame the behavior on herding" approach is a way for owners to excuse their inability to stop bad behavior, whatever it is.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My BC engages in the same behavior (mostly with squirrels). As does my pitbull mix. It's stalking, not herding.

 

The predatory sequence consists of several behaviors:

 

orient, eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect

 

I like this sequencing very much; also the emphasis (omitted in this quote for the sake of bandwidth) on the self-reinforcing quality of these behaviors.

 

I'd like to suggest that with "true" herding, we've derailed this sequence slightly, toward a different end goal:

 

orient, eye, stalk,
ambush, control motion

 

The same fiercely self-rewarding activity goes into an outrun as into a pure chase. A correct outrun (and/or a correct square flank) is basically a set-up for an ambush, designed to PREVENT a pure chase situation from arising.

 

The end goal is to control the motion of the object, and this sequence does not (or should not!) lead to grab/kill bite or dissection of the object.

 

I think the quality which truly distinguishes "herding" from "chasing" is the desire to control, rather than (exclusively) pursue.

 

Of course, even well-bred working stockdogs can make the mistake (just as easily as humans can) of taking hold in order to control; and they can succumb to the temptation to revel in the pure thoughtless speed of all-out pursuit; which can shift the herding sequence back into the hunting sequence in a split second. One of the purposes of training a working dog is to keep the emphasis on control.

 

Very rough thoughts here -- no time to refine at present. Have at it, folks.

 

Liz S in SC PA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Through selective breeding (of the BC), the individual components of the predatory sequence have been modified and the ratios are changed.

 

This is my understanding as well. I think it is pretty common for dog owners not to realize that a lot of behaviors exhibited by a variety of dog breeds (retrievers, pointers, terriers, etc.) is truncated predatory behavior (achieved through selective breeding so the dogs can do a particular job with humans). It is no coincidence that motion sensitivity is part of that package (hard to get hold of prey if you don't notice it or chase it).

 

It's when the motion sensitivity emerges out of context (thorough a variety of reasons---inadequate basic manners training, lack of adequate mental and physical outlets, others) that, when it's a "herding" breed, people seem to feel the chasing is herding behavior run amok (and like Julie said, the conclusion then may be drawn that there is nothing that can be done). When a Labrador chases the kids and nips at them, owners in my experience seem not to equate the chasing with retrieving, though. Puzzling. In browsing online I found this:

 

"As soon as you get a puppy, you can get them to chase things and then get them to stop on command. Have them stay while you throw that favorite toy. Basically you are putting rules on the game of chasing."

 

This is a quote from the Getting Started page on the AKC's performance events pages. Not for getting started in retriever field tests or lure coursing, but rather in "herding."

 

Somehow all today's threads are coming full circle for me. I think I need to rest my head now. :rolleyes:

 

B.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings all ~

 

I think I'm also out of things to say that others haven't already said. :rolleyes: So much of this discussion is subjective and based on opinions and theories, that there is on consensus to be had.

 

All we know for sure is that, whatever the origins were, in the misty deeps of time, sheepdogs evolved by selective breeding and somewhere along the line, the Border Collie emerged. I think it's impossible to ascertain what or how much of a BC's behaviors are mutated hunting instincts, or if they are something else. There are components of the BC's behaviors that can be translated as evolving from hunting, but I would never say that the BC's evolution came in a straight line from a hunting companion to a shepherd's work mate.

 

When I've read back on the earliest records of the "shepherd's dogge," there apparently was quiet a variety of types. Some were gatherers, some were drovers, some looked like one thing and others like another, and they varied from region to region across the British Isles. I'm not even clear, nor am I sure anyone is, at exactly what point the dog we now call Border Collies emerged as a recognizable type. The name itself is a fairly recent invention, and I'd love to have a gift for time travel so as to trace back the lines of that "Old Hemp" of yore, just to see what sort of curs and drovers and sheepdogs came together to create him and his type.

 

But my point is, the evolution of the Border Collie is so long and so varied, so convoluted and mysterious, that ascribing a concrete diagnosis of any breed-specific behavior is probably impossible. It can be fun to discuss, fun to hypothesize, interesting to watch if Discovery Channel ever decided to do a special on it ... but there is no final answer. There is no, "Yes, this is it."

 

Can border collies be more reactive, more motion sensitive, more prone to chase than other breeds? Sure. The same goes for any high energy dog. Hunting dogs, varmint dogs, herding dogs, whatever: they were each bred for a purpose and within that purpose remains the urge to chase. They're dogs. It's what dogs do. Whether a dog crouches and give eye, or freezes and points, or dashes and digs in a fury is immaterial. Chasing, if anything, is a manifestation of the arrested puppyhood in which the domestic dogs lives, and sometimes indicative of a bored and/or ill-managed dog.

 

Sure, some dogs are more reactive to motion than others. Some are border collies. Some are not. I've had 5 working BCs in my life, 2 BC/Aussie crosses, 1 Aussie-with-a-tail and a corgi mix. None had a chase obsession with anything. Except each other, but that's play, not work instinct.

 

For every person who says, "My dog chases cars/cats/armadillos/the Geiko Gecko because he's a herding dog," someone else can say their dog chases because he's a sight hound, a bird dog, a bear dog, a ratter, et cetera, and so ad infinitum. A dog chases because it's fun and self-rewarding. He may manifest certain physical behaviors particular to his breed, but in my humble opinion, that does not mean he thinks he's answering some primal instinctive urge. He just thinks he's having a darned good time.

 

My tuppence, as ever. :D Take or leave as anyone please. I've got a busy few days coming up, so I'll thank everyone for sharing their thoughts, and wish you all a good weekend.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...